Salary Cap: Roster-building thread Part XXXVII : Why can't we always play like that?

[themethod7]

I'd be shocked if Bylsma finds a job.

I wouldn't - there are teams out there with lesser rosters than the Pens that would consider it a success to just make the post-season and he's proven he can do that, even through injuries like we've faced the past few years. Then again, all the Shero/DB apologists last summer insisted they'd both be snatched up and lead some team to glory and we see how that played out, so who knows.

 

[Waffle Fries]

when you look at all the retreads, you won't be. and he did do well when forced to play the kids

There's a lot of quality coaches available though. McClellan, Babcock, DeBoer, Julien, I think that Boucher now has an out clause in Europe. I'm sure there's others that I am forgetting as well, and that's not including current assistant coaches that could take over HC gigs (Granato, Samuelsson etc.)

Like I said, if Dan gets a job, I'll be surprised.

 

[Shady Machine]

Yeah the coaching free agent list is looking pretty nice right now.

 

[Gurglesons]

There's a lot of quality coaches available though. McClellan, Babcock, DeBoer, Julien, I think that Boucher now has an out clause in Europe. I'm sure there's others that I am forgetting as well, and that's not including current assistant coaches that could take over HC gigs (Granato, Samuelsson etc.)

Like I said, if Dan gets a job, I'll be surprised.

Florida was going to hire him and he turned it down for money.

Bylsma could be a good coach somewhere. I could see him doing a Hartley if he is given the right franchise.

 

[Waffle Fries]

Florida was going to hire him and he turned it down for money.

Bylsma could be a good coach somewhere. I could see him doing a Hartley if he is given the right franchise.

The head coaching market last year wasn't nearly as strong as it is this year.

 

[Black Label]

Winger (??M) - Crosby (8.7M) - Hörnqvist (4.25M)
Winger (??M) - Malkin (9.5M) - Perron (3.9M)
Winnik (2.0M) - Center (??M) - Bennett (1.0M)
Wilson (.6M) - Sundqvist (.925M) - Rust (.9M)

Logic: First and second lines are easy with 4 players set in the top 6 and 2 FA or trades needed. For the third line I think that Sundqvist should be able to step in right away as 3C, but I think the Pens probably see him being a 4C for now. Depending on who is brought in for the 3C role, the line has good creativity with Bennett and a physical 30 point winger in Winnik. Fourth line should be Sundqvist along with the WBS wingers that show the most promise in camp/preseason. We need to start using the plethora of energy guys that we have in the organization.

Cap Hit: $32.77M

Määttä (.9M) - Letang (7.25M)
Pouliot (.9M) - Cole (1.5M)
Doumilin (.9M) - Lovejoy (1.1M)
Harrington (.9M)

Logic: Unless a major trade or signing is made, Määttä - Letang will be the top pair. For the second pairing I think it would be a mistake if they try to bring a FA in. Cole has shown promise and we need to develop Pouliot. I’d love to see Lovejoy moved, but I can’t see them trading him after how much everyone gushed over him after the trade. On the third pair, rotating with Doumilin and Harrington he will be much more serviceable than he is now. Harrington and Doumilin both need to be on the NHL roster next season. Doumilin has played well in the playoffs and has nothing left to learn in WBS. Same with Harrington after spending two years in the AHL. The bottom five can rotate as needed based on who is playing well at the moment.

Cap Hit: $13.45M

Fleury (5.75M)
Backup (1.0M)

Logic: Fleury isn’t going anywhere after playing well in the playoffs, but I could see them spending a little bit more on a backup to try to get Fleury some more rest (he’s not getting any younger).

Cap Hit: $6.75M

Total Cap Hit: $51.97
Remaining: $16.13 (using $68.1M cap figure) or $19.73 (using $71.7M cap figure)

Filling the remaining spots:

3C: This is the role that most affects who we bring in as wingers. I think they should move on from Sutter since he quietly had a good season and they may be able to get a winger for him. There are solid options out there at 3C if the team is willing to pay. Söderberg and Vermette are available for somewhere in the $5M range probably. A tier down from them would be guys like Fleischmann, Fisher, Matthias, Fehr, Richards, and Tlusty who will probably get around $3.5-5M. Because of how overpaid these guys are going to be compared to what they should be getting paid I’d really love to see Sundqvist get a shot and maybe keep a guy like Spaling who can fill in at 3C if he doesn’t pan out.

Top 6 Wingers (2): The winger class this year pretty much blows as everyone has said. My hope would be that we can fill one of the winger spots with whoever we get in a Sutter trade. Teams like Boston and Chicago will be looking to unload salary so we can maybe sweep in and get one of their wingers. Toronto is looking like they could be heading for a shakeup and a team like Arizona could be looking to deal after missing out on McEichel. As far as FA’s go, we need to find one that will mesh with our centers. If we don’t want to land up overpaying then I could see us targeting a guy like Erat. He has gotten a lot of crap in Washington because he was traded for Forsberg and playing in Arizona hasn’t helped his value. Guys like Stewart, Beleksey, Frolik, and Stafford are young(ish) and going to get paid even though they haven’t found extended success. I’d like to see them take a risk on one of the bigger name players and then also grab a darkhorse player like Erat.

 

[Riptide]

I think we can be just fine as a hockey club without Letang. We don't need Letang. We need defensemen who are capable of skating the puck out of danger, making decent passes, getting the play going the other way once we gain possession. Letang is great at those things, but to say we need a $7.25M version of that is just untrue. We could get by without Letang. It would have been a lot easier to accomplish had we not traded Despres for an AHL-level 31 year old never-was defenseman, but we can still put together a quality hockey club minus Letang. We just do a damn good job of making it seem like anyone with a pulse is instantly a future Hall of Famer because of how ****ing god awful the rest of this team is.

The idea that Letang is as important or irreplaceable as Sid or Geno has to stop. Just like the idea that Sid and Geno can "get by" with garbage on their wings, and a spectacularly soft, terrible bottom six needs to stop.

While I agree completely with that... We don't have those D internally and signing guys like that will cost between 5 and 6m in FA. If we're talking about signing 2 of Petry, Franson and Sekera, I'd honestly just rather keep Letang and sign 1 of those guys. Injuries aside, Letang is a very very good D, and if you're only talking about savings of a million or two, I'll take him over them. There could easily be a time over the next 2-3 seasons when guys like Dumoulin, Maatta and Pouliot make Letang expendable. But until that happens... we do need the skill set that Letang brings.

 

[drpepper]

Filling the remaining spots:

3C: This is the role that most affects who we bring in as wingers. I think they should move on from Sutter since he quietly had a good season and they may be able to get a winger for him. There are solid options out there at 3C if the team is willing to pay. Söderberg and Vermette are available for somewhere in the $5M range probably. A tier down from them would be guys like Fleischmann, Fisher, Matthias, Fehr, Richards, and Tlusty who will probably get around $3.5-5M. Because of how overpaid these guys are going to be compared to what they should be getting paid I’d really love to see Sundqvist get a shot and maybe keep a guy like Spaling who can fill in at 3C if he doesn’t pan out.

Top 6 Wingers (2): The winger class this year pretty much blows as everyone has said. My hope would be that we can fill one of the winger spots with whoever we get in a Sutter trade. Teams like Boston and Chicago will be looking to unload salary so we can maybe sweep in and get one of their wingers. Toronto is looking like they could be heading for a shakeup and a team like Arizona could be looking to deal after missing out on McEichel. As far as FA’s go, we need to find one that will mesh with our centers. If we don’t want to land up overpaying then I could see us targeting a guy like Erat. He has gotten a lot of crap in Washington because he was traded for Forsberg and playing in Arizona hasn’t helped his value. Guys like Stewart, Beleksey, Frolik, and Stafford are young(ish) and going to get paid even though they haven’t found extended success. I’d like to see them take a risk on one of the bigger name players and then also grab a darkhorse player like Erat.

This is essentially handwaving three important positions - 3C and 2 top 6 wingers.

Trying to fill two top 6 positions in FA particularly this crop is guaranteed overpayment for players that Crosby and Malkin will need to put on their backs and carry.

What are the Pens offering to Chicago (who can't take on cap) to get a winger? What do TOR or ARI have that they'd be willing to trade and that the Pens could afford?

Also the second pairing defense is really not good. And the fourth line is going to get eaten alive.

As a matter of curiousity, what happened to Kunitz, Scuderi, and Dupuis?

 

[Black Label]

This is essentially handwaving three important positions - 3C and 2 top 6 wingers.

Trying to fill two top 6 positions in FA particularly this crop is guaranteed overpayment for players that Crosby and Malkin will need to put on their backs and carry.

If it gets you a solid winger, then we have to be willing to overpay. No one in the organization is ready to step into the top six (maybe Bennett could if they had any faith in him).

What are the Pens offering to Chicago (who can't take on cap) to get a winger? What do TOR or ARI have that they'd be willing to trade and that the Pens could afford?

Also the second pairing defense is really not good. And the fourth line is going to get eaten alive.

As a matter of curiousity, what happened to Kunitz, Scuderi, and Dupuis?

Kunitz and Scuderi can be moved to the highest bidders for draft picks or bought out. I expect Dupuis will be on LTIR to start the year (and I doubt he will ever play again). The second pairing has to be 'not good' if we are going to get any prospects any playing time at all. And I don't see how that fourth line is going to get eaten alive. I don't even see how it's much worse than the 4th line we had for most of the season.

 

[Artie Party]

7.25 Letang
1.3 Cole
0.894167 Maatta
0.863333 Pouliot
0.8 Dumoulin
0.8 Chorney
1.1 Lovejoy
1 Scuderi Buyout

14.0075


5.75 Fleury
1 FA
0.6 Zatkoff

7.35


8.7 Crosby
4.25 Hornqvist
3.8215 Perron
9.5 Malkin
1.1 Bennett
3.75 Dupuis
2.2 Spaling
2 Comeau
0.7 Sundqvist
1.3 Lapierre/UFA
1.75 Winnik
0.65 Wilson
39.7215


61.079

That's after trading Kunitz and Sutter for picks/futures.

 

[drpepper]

If it gets you a solid winger, then we have to be willing to overpay. No one in the organization is ready to step into the top six (maybe Bennett could if they had any faith in him).



Kunitz and Scuderi can be moved to the highest bidders for draft picks or bought out. I expect Dupuis will be on LTIR to start the year (and I doubt he will ever play again). The second pairing has to be 'not good' if we are going to get any prospects any playing time at all. And I don't see how that fourth line is going to get eaten alive. I don't even see how it's much worse than the 4th line we had for most of the season.

What would you view as a reasonable (eg realistic) contract for Beleskey or Erat?

It would be nice if Bennett could be penciled in on Malkin's wing, and then the Pens could only be looking at bringing in one top 6 FA and maybe a tweener for injury depth.

Unless Dupuis has another clot, I don't see him starting the season on LTIR.

I should have made it clear that I think the Pens fourth line got eaten alive this year and last year. I would prefer a fourth line that actually has a shot of not getting eaten alive andcontributing offensively.

I think Sundqvist makes the fourth line and one of Rust or Wilson compete for a spot but should they be in the AHL versus the 13th forward on the NHL roster?

 

[Gurglesons]

What would you view as a reasonable (eg realistic) contract for Beleskey or Erat?

Beleskey has to get a Jussi type contract especially if the Ducks go far and he is part of that run.

 

[Riptide]

I'm dreading what's in store when Guerin and Botterill are given full control of the ship. I mean, they are already at the wheel and probably have been for months, but with nobody to even suggest otherwise, I am not enthused about what lies in store.

****, this team's already a disaster with no light at the end of the tunnel, but I have no doubt we could see things get worse before they get anywhere close to better.

I thought Guerin was just a liaison between the players and management, what power does he actually have right now?

That's the question. I don't think anyone really knows exactly who is in charge. In theory it's JR. However it could be all his AGMs or it could actually be him - who knows. Honestly I almost wish we hadn't made the playoffs, and then we could have (hopefully - yes I know almost certainly wishful thinking) cleared house.

 

[Riptide]

Do you genuinely believe that JR made that trade himself, or was even an advocate of pulling the trigger when the shadow council of imbeciles approached him with it?

I dunno. I just can't buy that, not after seeing his body language or the tone of his voice during the deadline day presser. That reeked of a man who hasn't had a shred of power with regard to GMing, and one who knew he was about to be crucified for a deal he didn't make, or didn't want to make.

Then he's still a ****ing idiot. If you're the guy in charge and you're being "told" to make a deal by those who by the org chart are below you, then you nut up and say NO. And if that costs you your job, so be it. It's not like he loses the money, the contract for management guys is just as guaranteed as the players. By him saying yes, he's even more complicit, because he did something he knew he shouldn't have.

 

[Black Label]

What would you view as a reasonable (eg realistic) contract for Beleskey or Erat?

For Beleskey a 'reasonable' contract would be some kind of short term deal to prove that he isn't a one season wonder. But I think it's likely that he gets 4-5 years at $4-5M.

I think Erat should be available for under $3M on a 1-2 year deal.

It would be nice if Bennett could be penciled in on Malkin's wing, and then the Pens could only be looking at bringing in one top 6 FA and maybe a tweener for injury depth.

Unless Dupuis has another clot, I don't see him starting the season on LTIR.

I should have made it clear that I think the Pens fourth line got eaten alive this year and last year. I would prefer a fourth line that actually has a shot of not getting eaten alive andcontributing offensively.

I think Sundqvist makes the fourth line and one of Rust or Wilson compete for a spot but should they be in the AHL versus the 13th forward on the NHL roster?

I'm not against signing a veteran for the 4th line, but I think Rust and Wilson give just as much offensive potential as most of the 4th line guys out there that won't break the bank.

 

[Stad]

Now we know where Kunitz's iron pills went.

http://www.wpxi.com/news/news/local/nanny-pittsburgh-penguins-player-charged-robbery-h/nk2jW/

players for the Pittsburgh Penguins fell victim to robbery by someone whom they knowingly let into their home, authorities said.
Andrea Forsythe, 26, who worked as a nanny for Chris Kunitz and his family, has been charged by police with theft.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

Then he's still a ****ing idiot. If you're the guy in charge and you're being "told" to make a deal by those who by the org chart are below you, then you nut up and say NO. And if that costs you your job, so be it. It's not like he loses the money, the contract for management guys is just as guaranteed as the players. By him saying yes, he's even more complicit, because he did something he knew he shouldn't have.

Agreed whole-heartedly. Ultimately the decision fell to JR. He's the guy who made the official trade call. I don't think he came up with the trade, or even wanted to do it, but he didn't stop it, so it's on him.

Just like Lemieux. Love the guy as a player, and will never forget how he saved the franchise as an owner, but if this 5+ year mess is anyone's fault, it's the owner's for allowing it to go on this long.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I'd be shocked if Bylsma finds a job.

Why?

Ok outside of our hate for him, there are worse coaches that have had ample opportunities, like Ted Nolan for whatever reason has had a few chances already and he's god awful of a coach. Bylsma is actually fairly good when he wants to be and adjusts, but he just has way too high of an opinion of his system and himself, he needed to learn humility, the firing could be it, or not...but I still think he'll end up being a very successful coach when all is said and done with "Disco."

 

[joeyjake5]

Whether this team made the playoffs or not this year is immaterial. This team still needs a lot of help if it wants to legitimately compete for the cup next year. As a minimum, two SOB rough Ds who can knock someone down and at least two physical forwards who are not easily removed from the puck are needed. And I am sure its not going to happen. .

 

[BrunoPuntzJones]

Bylsma has an undeniably attractive resume. Thus far he's failed on big stages, but I can't see why a team that isn't in win now mode wouldn't give him a serious look. He might even learn from his experiences here, get a roster more suited to his vision, and put it together in the playoffs. He's one of the top candidates available, no question.

 

[JQR]

Bylsma will have a job. His "grind them down" mentality could probably do wonders for some of the lower skill cap teams in the bottom half of the regular season standings.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

Bylsma would probably be decent in NJ.

 

[Shady Machine]

This is essentially handwaving three important positions - 3C and 2 top 6 wingers.

Trying to fill two top 6 positions in FA particularly this crop is guaranteed overpayment for players that Crosby and Malkin will need to put on their backs and carry.

What are the Pens offering to Chicago (who can't take on cap) to get a winger? What do TOR or ARI have that they'd be willing to trade and that the Pens could afford?

Also the second pairing defense is really not good. And the fourth line is going to get eaten alive.

As a matter of curiousity, what happened to Kunitz, Scuderi, and Dupuis?

That's the predicament we are in though. They need to move on from Kunitz. Dupuis should probably retire and Sutter is their best proven trade chip. As for Scuds, try to trade him straight up or the amount of retention as the buy out cap hit would be. If that doesn't work, then buy him out.

 

[Waffle Fries]

Why?

Ok outside of our hate for him, there are worse coaches that have had ample opportunities, like Ted Nolan for whatever reason has had a few chances already and he's god awful of a coach. Bylsma is actually fairly good when he wants to be and adjusts, but he just has way too high of an opinion of his system and himself, he needed to learn humility, the firing could be it, or not...but I still think he'll end up being a very successful coach when all is said and done with "Disco."

As I posted before, there are a lot of quality coaches on the market who I think would be much more attractive names for the teams who are currently without a coach. I also think what he did in the Olympics scared a lot of hockey people.

 

[Shady Machine]

Why?

Ok outside of our hate for him, there are worse coaches that have had ample opportunities, like Ted Nolan for whatever reason has had a few chances already and he's god awful of a coach. Bylsma is actually fairly good when he wants to be and adjusts, but he just has way too high of an opinion of his system and himself, he needed to learn humility, the firing could be it, or not...but I still think he'll end up being a very successful coach when all is said and done with "Disco."

Because the following coaches are or may be available:

Tippett
Babcock
Julien
McClellan
DeBoer
Boucher

probably missing a few others. Bylsma may get a job this year, but if he'd prefer to sit on his couch making 2MM for next year over 1.5MM for the Oilers or Coyotes, then he will have to wait another year.