Speculation: Roster Building Thread - Part XXXV

[mas0764]

You're arguing against the wrong person. Im not saying to go all in or trade all of our assets, but in the right deal any of Lundkvist/Kravtsov/Chytil/Jones or any of our picks are available and should be. And even if the Ranger dont win the Cup this year it doesnt make it "all for nothing" as some posters have said. Playoff experience and showing the locker room that the front office is committed to competing for Cups is very important for a young team. Rebuilding and stockpiling assets isn't priority 1 anymore

Playoff experience is unavoidable, and the front office can better show it's commitment to winning by getting pieces for the guys who are going to be here long term instead of the guys who are gone after this one single season. Panarin isn't going anywhere, Zibanejad has an 8 year contract as does Fox, etc.

The moves that should be made for any expensive asset - Lundkvist, Kravtsov, Chytil, Jones - should yes, be made for those long term players and not for the Ryan Stomes who may not be here next year anyway.

If you want to be a long term winner, stockpiling assets is always priority 1. Overspending on assets that leave in 4 months is the quickest way to get into sports credit card debt imaginable. Again, it is ALMOST ALWAYS a bad investment, even for teams with legit chances to win. And yet people here continue to clamor to throw away multiple of our best pieces.

This is a two-pronged debate because not only is renting a bad idea for this current NY Rangers team, renting is a bad idea in general that is somehow ingrained into hockey culture unlike any other sport. I challenge it's convention.

 

[mas0764]

Mark Recchi was 40 years old, and was traded with a 2nd round pick (from a non-playoff TBL team) for two "reclamation" level guys (Lashoff hadn't stuck with Boston for three years running, and his AHL numbers had been trending down as well. Karsums was D+4 and looked like a AAAA player--he only played 24 NHL games).

McD is a different situation. TBL, in 2018, had the cap space to re-sign him to a 7 year extension. He was a "now AND future" piece. We don't have the cap space to keep any big ticket players beyond this year (or next, if they come with retention).

Williams wasn't a 2006 rental. He was traded to the Canes in January of 2004 in return for Danny Markov. The Canes didn't make the playoffs that year (and the Flyers lost in the Conference finals). After the lockout, they signed Williams to a 1-year "show me" RFA contract for less than $1.5m (this was the season the Canes won the Cup). The following season, they signed him to a long-term deal. At the time he was traded by Philly, Williams was seen as a disappointment and an injury risk (bad knee). He looked more like Chytil than Hertl at that point.

The only one of your three examples to cost anything significant is McDonagh, and again, TBL had the cap space to sign him long term. Williams and Recchi? If you want to trade ~Hajek and Gauthier for a cheap grisly veteran (with an expiring contract) and a 2nd round pick (the equivalent of the Recchi deal), I'm on board with it. The closest equivalent would probably be Phil Kessel. You want to send a veteran D on a bad-ish contract for another team's struggling young player (ie: the Justin Williams trade)? Hey, I'm on board with that.

But the "All in" folks want to throw out first round picks, top prospects, and young roster players in exchange for players who won't be here for more than 1 or 2 years because of the cap crunch. And this team isn't ready for that (nor is it what Carolina or Boston did in your examples).

FINISH HIM

 

[mas0764]

There is absolutely no reason to sit on our hands when we unlimited cap space at the deadline

Sure. Trade second round picks and later, or trade mid-level prospects like Reunanen.

And when that doesn't eat up all your cap space, then take on salary for this season to help facilitate other teams' deals in exchange for picks.

& an overabundance of prospects;

We don't have an overabundance of prospects. We have one or two too many defensive prospects possibly. We make up for that by not having enough forward prospects of substance.

We desperately need a young legit center prospect, we could absolutely use a second, and if Kravtsov isn't coming back then we need another top wing prospect too.

It would be criminal not to try to make a run with this group

The pieces of this group that matter will all be here and playing at a high level next year, the year after, etc.

Most of us are against trading prime assets for pure rentals. But if you can add someone like a Reilly Smith for a 2nd & a 3rd, you do it. If Pavelski becomes available & the cost is our first this year, sure it stings a little but its a no brainer. That pick will wind up in the mid-late 20s anyway & it sends a message to the locker room that the organization believes in them. Trades like that are not mortgaging the future.

Notably, these proposals don't seem to include a Nils, Chytil, or Kravtsov, and therefore are a lot less likely to be argued against. I would do that Reilly Smith deal all day (and I'd actually see if there's a way I can re-sign him in the offseason). Not a fan of the first for Pavelski, though.

Sending a message to the locker room is overrated. It's way more about sending a message to the fans to buy their playoff tickets early.

 

[mas0764]

We aren't disagreeing about which pieces are potential trade chips (though I still maintain that Chytil is in a slump rather than "actively regressing"--he was great last year and I will never understand why so many posters here despise the kid). We are disagreeing about where and when and how to spend them. Your suggestions have been about spending all/most of them RIGHT NOW to add pieces in the name of winning the Cup RIGHT NOW. History tells us that a team's first taste of playoff hockey--regardless of how much they've added--doesn't go well. Even if we add all the pieces you clamor for, this team is more likely to get swept in round 1 than it is to go the distance. I'm not saying sell. I'm not saying don't spend. But the team needs to spend smart, and that means holding your chips for the right deal. In my opinion, the "right deal" is one that helps the team long-term. Even the examples you gave in your earlier post--none of the buying teams won the Cup that year. None of the selling teams did either. None of them came close. And I bet if you asked Philadelphia, they would tell you that they wished they'd held on to Justin Williams (and the 1,101 NHL games and 707 NHL points he had after leaving Philly as a "disappointment" as a 22 year old) instead of giving up on him in favor of 34 games (5 points, and no trip even to the SCF) of Danny Markov.

Use the chips to bring in long term players. Use them to move up the draft to get a higher-impact prospect. And if you can't get that, then let them keep developing. It was a philosophy that turned 90s/00s Detroit into a dynasty.

Right on.

This team by any reasonable person's analysis is nothing but a long shot to win it all this year. You have people acting like this is our only shot. The shots are going to get better from here on out.

The cap space is burning a hole into people's pocket.

 

[mas0764]

I’m not an all in guy, I don’t want to trade every piece this season. Definitely some if it’s the right move. I do think we’re arguing past each other a little because we do agree on the overall point.

As for the examples I have of trades in the past, that was more of an idea of what they could do, not nitpicking specific moves

Gotta draw the line at the “multiple Cups” and “dynasty” talk I see about the Rangers though. I can’t even fathom winning 1, let alone 2 or 3. Worrying about the next one before you’ve won the 1st is nuts

If you aren't an "all-in" guy like you claim, then it's not nuts to be worrying about future years of the team and their chances of winning Cups.

It should be any good GM's aim to build a team that contends for a long period of time and has multiple high level chances to win, followed by a smart and well executed tear down.

There are many faults to place at the feet of Gorton but the tear-down part of his rebuild was mostly excellent.

 

[mas0764]

i can see them getting a guy w an extra year left but I think your right play is just to trade 2nd round picks and down for Rentals

keep your kids we done know who’s for real yet

Even trading a prime asset for JT Miller is stupid.

The only suggestion I've heard on here that wouldn't be mind-numbingly insane is trading a prime asset for Chychrun.

And even then I'm probably not willing to go as high as Arizona wants. I think he's a bit overrated on here.

He's good not great. And he plays a position where we have enough prospects.

 

[Boris Zubov]

Per the respected insider Edge, the offer was Kupari and a first from LA for Buch. He's stated on many occasions that there were, in his mind, better offers than the one we accepted for Buch.

I've been reading this board for 7 years, posting here for 6 & I can't recall one time Edge has predicted a trade correctly before it happened. Can you? Maybe I'm wrong & not recalling correctly & maybe he did before I showed up here, but he usually shares information after the fact, when nothing can be confirmed or denied. Please cite an example & I'll be the first to admit I'm wrong, but the fact that you continue to place all your eggs in that basket seems really odd to me. You're becoming Ed Jovonoski level of annoying with this.

 

[TheBloodyNine]

I know. I was reminded earlier in the thread. I had forgotten we received a 2nd round pick with Rykov.

I think you quoted the wrong person here.

 

[TheBloodyNine]

Per the respected insider Edge, the offer was Kupari and a first from LA for Buch. He's stated on many occasions that there were, in his mind, better offers than the one we accepted for Buch.

Loving this title for Edge

 

[haveandare]

I wouldn’t move much of anything of substance for pure rentals. This team has got best badly by most of the good teams they played - this isn’t the year to use our finite resources on a playoff push

If you can get Reilly, lekhonen, or Giordano for cheap, I’m all for shoring up glaring weaknesses to see how far they can push it, but stuff like Miller, Pavelski, etc is not wise

 

[mas0764]

I've been reading this board for 7 years, posting here for 6 & I can't recall one time Edge has predicted a trade correctly before it happened. Can you? Maybe I'm wrong & not recalling correctly & maybe he did before I showed up here, but he usually shares information after the fact, when nothing can be confirmed or denied. Please cite an example & I'll be the first to admit I'm wrong, but the fact that you continue to place all your eggs in that basket seems really odd to me. You're becoming Ed Jovonoski level of annoying with this.

Do you have a reason to believe he's lying?

I suspect he gets information after the fact. It wouldn't be shocking that Nick Bobrov wasn't calling him up and telling him about trade negotiations as they are happening. Afterwards, he gets information like "this is the story of what happened."

 

[SA16]

I wouldn’t move much of anything of substance for pure rentals. This team has got best badly by most of the good teams they played - this isn’t the year to use our finite resources on a playoff push

If you can get Reilly, lekhonen, or Giordano for cheap, I’m all for shoring up glaring weaknesses to see how far they can push it, but stuff like Miller, Pavelski, etc is not wise

I would say the opposite. Those guys don't move the needle. It's a waste of resources to trade for them. Trading something significant for Miller/Pavelski etc. can actually improve the team in a significant way.

 

[Boris Zubov]

Do you have a reason to believe he's lying?

I never said he's lying. I'm just not all in on his information being 1000% accurate like you think it is. Especially when it's never reported anywhere else, even after the fact.

But you're evading the question...can you show me or even just reference a trade he's called before it happened?

 

[mas0764]

I would say the opposite. Those guys don't move the needle. It's a waste of resources to trade for them. Trading something significant for Miller/Pavelski etc. can actually improve the team in a significant way.

I don't think this is generally borne out by, well, much at all.

I think most Cup winners do not make significant adds. Adding a star player at the deadline rarely results in a Cup win.

 

[MrAlmost]

JT Miller is a dumb idea. If we trade for a player, it should be for someone on a 3+ year contract that is a good hit, or has the ability to come with retention. Finding solutions like that is what builds a winning team. Not JT Miller for 1 and half years. We did that with Yandle and it was a waste. If there is a trade with Van it should be for Garland.

If they are looking for a D, while Chychrun may seem really nice, someone like Gavrikov is a better choice for the 3rd pair, which is what we need. Giordano is a waste of time as well. If you are trading with Seattle, go for Gourde with retention.

But who knows, Jones looks good to me. He makes mistakes, but he takes chances in the offensive zone to keep up pressure. Too many on the team are passive.

Schneider has gotten both warranted and unwarranted high praise on these boards for playing slightly better then Lundqvist. He has played better though and looks like he could be a keeper on the 3rd pair, but he makes mistakes with the puck and his hits aren't timed well yet cause the game is still a touch faster then he is used to. But again, he is getting better.

 

[Anthony5967]

I wanted the NYR to chase JT Miller. I've since cooled on the idea. It isn't worth it. If this team was TB or Florida, sure, but they aren't there yet, and they should not be trading Othmann and/or Schneider for a guy that will be here 1.5 years. No way. Save the assets, continue to draft well, and go for it in a year or two when guys like Kakko, Laf, Schneider, Miller, etc., have matured. This team can easily bring in a guy like Reilly Smith, a fourth-line faceoff guy, etc. I'd rather just play Jones with Schneider as opposed to purchasing another depth defender. Nemeth can be the seven, while Hajek goes down to Hartford or is claimed. If you are Drury and nobody wants him for even a fourth, what makes you think he's any good?

 

[mas0764]

I never said he's lying. I'm just not all in on his information being 1000% accurate like you think it is.

If he's not lying then there's no reason to believe his information isn't mostly accurate. You are either saying one or the other.

But you're evading the question...

So are you.

can you show me or even just reference a trade he's called before it happened?

I don't think that's relevant, but no, I haven't been tracking them with a spreadsheet or anything.

 

[Avery16]

THE ATHLETIC: Jeremy Rutherford was asked if St. Louis Blues winger Vladimir Tarasenkostill wants to be traded in a recent mailbag segment. His understanding of the situation is it will be addressed in the offseason. It’s believed his request still stands but it makes little sense trading him now as he and the team are playing well.

NHL Rumor Mill – February 4, 2022 | Spectors Hockey

 

[Boris Zubov]

If he's not lying then there's no reason to believe his information isn't mostly accurate. You are either saying one or the other.



So are you.



I don't think that's relevant, but no, I haven't been tracking them with a spreadsheet or anything.

Which question did I avoid? He could be repeating inaccurate information, which isn't the same as lying. Larry Brooks does this all the time. Are you really incapable of bridging that gap?

And of course your last statement is relevant...it's called credibility.

 

[DialUp]

Schneider has gotten both warranted and unwarranted high praise on these boards for playing slightly better then Lundqvist.

Schneider is a rookie who plays like he's ready to be where he is, every young player aside from the gods make mistakes, but he plays like he deserves to make those mistakes here.
Lundqvist looked like he wasn't ready to be in the big club at all from day one. I still think Nils is going to be a good player.

 

[bhamill]

18-5 against the Eastern Conference this year, including 6-3 against Toronto/Florida/Tampa Bay. 0-2 against Caps/Canes, but I'll reserve judgement until we see a few more games against them in 2nd half.

There shouldn't be any doubts about this teams standing in the league.

And yet there ARE doubts. Here and around the league.
It’s nice you have such confidence, but I don’t share it. I love this team. I think in 2 years or so it’s going to be a perennial contender with a much better shot at winning it all multiple times, while keeping the pipeline of contributing ELC players…
Unless we empty the cupboards for a half assed (IMO) run at The Cup THIS year.
Now I don’t expect to change you perspective any more than you should expect people to not have doubts, this is just MY view on it.

 

[rangersfansince08]

And yet there ARE doubts. Here and around the league.
It’s nice you have such confidence, but I don’t share it. I love this team. I think in 2 years or so it’s going to be a perennial contender with a much better shot at winning it all multiple times, while keeping the pipeline of contributing ELC players…
Unless we empty the cupboards for a half assed (IMO) run at The Cup THIS year.
Now I don’t expect to change you perspective any more than you should expect people to not have doubts, this is just MY view on it.

We need a good 2C to improve our 5 on 5 play. hOw do we get that?

 

[Lgrsean]

“Do or do not. There is no try.“
I would rather wait to mortgage future’s and picks for when the team can do win the cup. Not when they can try and win the cup.
There are currently 6 NHL playoff ready players on this team (one of those is injured).
To get through 4 of the following 7 teams, Boston, Carolina, Florida, Pittsburgh, Tampa Bay, Toronto and Washington in a seven game series just for the right to play one of Colorado, Minnesota and Vegas seems like an impossible try, even if the Rangers go out and trade for a bunch of rentals. Please stop and remember that many of those afore mentioned teams also have an elite goalie.
Time is on our side. We are one of the youngest teams in the league and many of those cup contenders now are only going to get old and tired in a year or two.
Just look at the Long Island team; it’s like they fell off a cliff this year and they won’t be competing again for many years to come.

We'd have an opportunity at 2 deep playoff runs with Miller, then in the '23 season when he leaves, you hope Laf and Kakko are much further along in their development in year's 4 and 5 of their NHL careers. In '24 you need to trade off Kreider and/or Trouba to fit everyone under the cap.

The people that don't want to make a significant move to make a run at the cup with this group ignore our future cap situation and pretend that trading away a couple futures will ruin the future. What about the benefit the current young rangers get from playing with PPG veteran linemates and getting deep playoff experience?

What is it that you expect to get out of a late first round pick, Lundkvist, and Kravtsov? How do they fit into the future? Who are the players you would target, and why would other teams give them up?

 

[mas0764]

Schneider is a rookie who plays like he's ready to be where he is, every young player aside from the gods make mistakes, but he plays like he deserves to make those mistakes here.
Lundqvist looked like he wasn't ready to be in the big club at all from day one. I still think Nils is going to be a good player.

I don't agree that Nils didn't look ready "at all." He had his struggles but I think he was actually decent. His metrics back this up as well.

 

[mas0764]

We need a good 2C to improve our 5 on 5 play. hOw do we get that?

Spend 3 prime assets on a rental instead of 4 prime assets on a long term solution of course!