Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XXXV

[DanielBrassard]

We are a bottom of the league team

NO ****ING OFFER SHEETS

Even for our 2nd

If you wouldn't give up a 2nd round pick for a Johnsson type, I just don't understand the mentality. 2nd rounders are not that valuable.

 

[Ola]

I don’t see how he’s done anything less than a good job with the Coyotes. I’ve watched a decent amount of their games this season, they’ve been a fun story, especially their home games.

I am certainly not biased on this topic, I think he has done a great job with that team.

Remember that they are what 7m under the Cap with like 15-20m on "retired" LTIR contracts dumped on them. They play good hockey.

 

[Edge]

If you wouldn't give up a 2nd round pick for a Johnsson type, I just don't understand the mentality. 2nd rounders are not that valuable.

For me it's more the cost of ending up a pariah in the league.

The cost I can live with. The consequences are another matter.

 

[Zibanejbread]

Fair point, but how much of that is attributable to Lazar getting rushed by Ottawa? Playing 9-10 minutes a night touching the puck what, 4-5 times 1-2 second each time, for two full season?

Lemieux averaged only 7:24 of TOI with WPG before the trade and had 9 goals. In 44 games... Lazar just sucks, let it go.

 

[Mac n Gs]

I was initially joking with that offer sheet comment, but I’ll bite. Why exactly shouldn’t we be willing to spend a 2020 2nd on someone like Kapanen or Johnsson? I understand wanting to accumulate assets, but I don’t understand why people wouldn’t want to bring in immediate upgrades to every winger we have sans Buch and Kreider. These guys are 22 and 24 years old and can easily become core pieces for the rebuild. We’re in a unique situation where Toronto is cash strapped and will have to lose an important asset for next year, so we should look to capitalize on it now.

Just sitting back, waiting, and expecting us to identify, draft, and develop these types of players is going to end up in the being a perpetual rebuild. Sometimes you need to be active.

I am certainly not biased on this topic, I think he has done a great job with that team.

Remember that they are what 7m under the Cap with like 15-20m on "retired" LTIR contracts dumped on them. They play good hockey.

Plus, most of his picks haven’t had a chance to make their full impact on the team yet, and he’s stuck in a situation where they can’t really spend money. Their big FA splash this year was what, Michael Grabner? He barely played all season because he almost lost an eye. Their incremental improvements are obvious, and Tocchet has done very well as a 2nd year coach there.

 

[DanielBrassard]

For me it's more the cost of ending up a pariah in the league.

The cost I can live with. The consequences are another matter.

I can buy this argument more than the others

 

[LORDE]

If you wouldn't give up a 2nd round pick for a Johnsson type, I just don't understand the mentality. 2nd rounders are not that valuable.

When they match and the other GMs see that you offer sheet someone and they all attack you might then.

 

[LORDE]

The thing about offer sheets is when you risk little, it doesn't take much to match... even with TOs cap situation

 

[Tob]

Did Nashville ever send men to attack Philadelphia for that Weber offer sheet?

 

[Shesterkybomb]

They can offer sheet Johnsson or Kapanen for ~4M at the expense of a 2nd round pick if they opt to sign. No one is gonna pony up the multiple firsts to OS someone like Marner or Trouba.

Agreed...Johnson or Kapanen should be offer sheet targets. They are worth every bit of a 2nd round pick. I doubt anyone is gonna do it but Toronto if their feet aren't held to the fire could be a problem for us in the future as they have a ton of assets, forcing them to pay or let some go would be smart on both ends.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

The thing about offer sheets is when you risk little, it doesn't take much to match... even with TOs cap situation

Toronto needs to sign Marner, Kapanen and Johnson and will likely lose Gardiner to the cap. If you offer sheet 4 mill to kapanen or Johnson they will have a very hard time matching without moving someone. Offer them a trade, if they refuse then offer sheet.

 

[SA16]

For me it's more the cost of ending up a pariah in the league.

The cost I can live with. The consequences are another matter.

What are the consequences? Because if I was a GM I would welcome other GM's offer sheeting my players. Let them do my negotiating for me if they want. There is also no point in "retaliating" to offer sheet any Rangers because they aren't in a cap crunch, they don't really have anyone worth offer sheeting, and if another team is retaliating that is a synonym essentially for "being spiteful and making poor decisions." And if they refuse to trade with me due to an offer sheet than they are yet again doing a disservice to their team by shrinking the market place.

 

[Irishguy42]

When they match and the other GMs see that you offer sheet someone and they all attack you might then.

Yes, I am quite sure that if Gorton offer sheets a single player, everyone will come out of the woodwork and offersheet all of our players. Mhmmm. Yes. Exactly what will happen.

29 other teams would just be itching to get back at the Rangers for offersheeting a player not on their team. Mhmmmm.

 

[Irishguy42]

What are the chances that the 2020 2nd would become as good as Kapanen or Johansson?

Hint: not as good as you think.

 

[Machinehead]

For me it's more the cost of ending up a pariah in the league.

The cost I can live with. The consequences are another matter.

I don't know, Philly offer-sheeted a guy widely considered to be a superstar.

Has anyone stopped dealing with the Flyers? Did anyone offer-sheet Giroux or Couturier?

 

[Ola]

Lemieux averaged only 7:24 of TOI with WPG before the trade and had 9 goals. In 44 games... Lazar just sucks, let it go.

Why does he suck? According to who?

Looking at some stats from a kid rushed badly to the NHL is just so very unconvincing. Lemieux had 20 pts in 60 games in the AHL as a 21 y/o. Lazar scored 15 pts in 67 games as a 19 y/o in the NHL. At 21 Lazar had like what 150 games in the NHL...

Many kids have established themselves in the NHL in their early/mid 20s after a fresh start. The career isn’t over at 19-20 even if you haven’t become a dominant NHLer at that age...

 

[LORDE]

Yes, I am quite sure that if Gorton offer sheets a single player, everyone will come out of the woodwork and offersheet all of our players. Mhmmm. Yes. Exactly what will happen.

29 other teams would just be itching to get back at the Rangers for offersheeting a player not on their team. Mhmmmm.

Right. So offer sheets, though completely legal under the CBA are just ignored for no f***ing reason.

Yes. Exactly right. I'm sure.

 

[Machinehead]

Right. So offer sheets, though completely legal under the CBA are just ignored for no ****ing reason.

Yes. Exactly right. I'm sure.

I mean, there's a reason. It's a measure of respect; it's a code. The execs all know each other.

I don't think the actual retaliation and ostracization would be anywhere near what we're told.

 

[Edge]

What are the consequences? Because if I was a GM I would welcome other GM's offer sheeting my players. Let them do my negotiating for me if they want. There is also no point in "retaliating" to offer sheet any Rangers because they aren't in a cap crunch, they don't really have anyone worth offer sheeting, and if another team is retaliating that is a synonym essentially for "being spiteful and making poor decisions." And if they refuse to trade with me due to an offer sheet than they are yet again doing a disservice to their team by shrinking the market place.

I don't know, Philly offer-sheeted a guy widely considered to be a superstar.

Has anyone stopped dealing with the Flyers? Did anyone offer-sheet Giroux or Couturier?

Eh, not completely wrong on that.

The truth is no one really knows what the true consequences are, because for the most part it's a relatively unknown and no one really discusses.

You do hear rumblings that there are certain doors that are closed after a team goes down that path, and there were more than a few of those coming out of Philly. Yeah, in theory you could argue a GM is shrinking his market. I think the standard response is typically that there's enough teams out there that it isn't a big deal. I also think there's a feeling that other teams are less inclined to deal with a GM that goes that route. So the prevailing thought has always been that the market tends to shrink for the team making the offer, rather than the "retaliatory" team. How true is that? I honestly don't know, but that's probably the more popular answer you'd hear within the sport.

As for whether I would consider it, yeah I'd be open to it.

 

[DanielBrassard]

Instead of offersheeting either of Johnsson or Kapanen, we need to convince Dubas to take Pionk.

 

[Machinehead]

Instead of offersheeting either of Johnsson or Kapanen, we need to convince Dubas to take Pionk.

I don't care who takes Pionk. He can be my TA if he wants.

 

[Edge]

I mean, there's a reason. It's a measure of respect; it's a code. The execs all know each other.

I don't think the actual retaliation and ostracization would be anywhere near what we're told.

I have to be careful how I word this, but from what I've heard, it's fairly subtle.

There have been rumors and innuendos that the cost to acquire certain pieces goes up, or that the return for certain players via trades goes down. Maybe you don't see quite the bidding wars that you'd expect to see, things of that nature.

Nothing that would lead to accusations of collusion mind you...because we wouldn't want to imply that. But there have been various reports that things became at least a little more difficult. Whether or not that's true, who's to say. But if you were to get a few drinks in people and got them talking about deals that may or may not have been on the table, it does become a more.....popular subject.

Is it true or just a boogeyman story? Debatable.

 

[Machinehead]

I have to be careful how I word this, but from what I've heard, it's fairly subtle.

There have been rumors and innuendos that the cost to acquire certain pieces goes up, or that the return for certain players via trades goes down. Maybe you don't see quite the bidding wars that you'd expect to see, things of that nature.

Nothing that would lead to accusations of collusion mind you...because we wouldn't want to imply that. But there have been various reports that things became at least a little more difficult. Whether or not that's true, who's to say. But if you were to get a few drinks in people and got them talking about deals that may or may not have been on the table, it does become a more.....popular subject.

Is it true or just a boogeyman story? Debatable.

Yeah, I could see this.

In baseball, we talk about "Yankees tax" and I don't know if that's true either, but we know for sure that the Pirates took an objectively worse offer from Houston for Cole.

 

[SA16]

I have to be careful how I word this, but from what I've heard, it's fairly subtle.

There have been rumors and innuendos that the cost to acquire certain pieces goes up, or that the return for certain players via trades goes down. Maybe you don't see quite the bidding wars that you'd expect to see, things of that nature.

Nothing that would lead to accusations of collusion mind you...because we wouldn't want to imply that. But there have been various reports that things became at least a little more difficult. Whether or not that's true, who's to say. But if you were to get a few drinks in people and got them talking about deals that may or may not have been on the table, it does become a more.....popular subject.

Is it true or just a boogeyman story? Debatable.

And yet again...that's just the other general managers doing more harm to their team by not behaving rationally than it is harming the team that gave the offer sheet in the first place. Teams could logically demand more for one of their players because they are angry but they can not make low ball offers to try and acquire a player from you for the same reason as the Fox thing which is that in a free/competitive market you essentially must bid your true value for the asset or someone else will always be able to make a better offer.

 

[DaBadGuy7]

If the 2020 Draft is even better with top end talent than the top guys this year than the Rangers should stay the course even more imo. Besides trading Kreider and possibly trading for a older veteran with a hefty contract (Callahan, Marleau), that should all Gorton should do in the off-season. Next season should be development of Chytil, Andersson, Kravtsov, and some of the D-men.