Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XXXIV

[haohmaru]

Then why even bring it up?

Its a dumb statement.

It's humorous - it was probably dumb to interpret it as anything else.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Yeah, but that's not saying let's not sign any UFA's, either. The Rangers have been guilty, particularly pre-lockout, of trying to buy championships. Because you're building from within doesn't mean you can't add to that mix by trading for players or signing UFA's. The Rangers have the youngest forward group in the league, I think they're building from within whether they sign Panarin or not.

Theres a difference between signing just any UFA (lower market guys or even mid market guys) and signing the top shelf dudes. The best teams in this league are fueled by elite homegrown talent. Signing Panarin would be like trying to wire your house before the foundation is even set.

Now he doesn't turn this team into a middling playoff fodder on his own, but he does get in the way of having the best chance of landing said talent unless we just starting adding in a ton of other variables (players getting injured, declining, etc.)

Also the argument that he is going to teach players how to win is horrible. What exactly has he won in this league? I'm not even saying that hes a bad locker room guy and hes a hell of a player but he doesn't exactly have a ton of street cred.

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

Can you guys argue about something else?

Like please lol

 

[haohmaru]

Theres a difference between signing just any UFA (lower market guys or even mid market guys) and signing the top shelf dudes. The best teams in this league are fueled by elite homegrown talent. Signing Panarin would be like trying to wire your house before the foundation is even set.

Now he doesn't turn this team into a middling playoff fodder on his own, but he does get in the way of having the best chance of landing said talent unless we just starting adding in a ton of other variables (players getting injured, declining, etc.)

Also the argument that he is going to teach players how to win is horrible. What exactly has he won in this league? I'm not even saying that hes a bad locker room guy and hes a hell of a player but he doesn't exactly have a ton of street cred.

He won the Calder.

I guess I can see the veteran elite Russian argument considering the incoming/here Russian youth (Shesty, Krav, Buch, etc...)

But, like I've said a dozen times, I'm not really advocating for Panarin but I can see the point of view for people that would like him here and I don't think a strong enough argument can be made convincingly enough from either side to be definitive enough to "win" the debate.

I'm fine either way, but if they DO sign him then they absolutely should move Kreider in the right deal - preferably this summer.

 

[haohmaru]

Can you guys argue about something else?

Like please lol

Staal is going to have a Comeback of the Year season next year. Prove me wrong.





















Please don't. He's still going to suck.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

He won the Calder.

I guess I can see the veteran elite Russian argument considering the incoming/here Russian youth (Shesty, Krav, Buch, etc...)

But, like I've said a dozen times, I'm not really advocating for Panarin but I can see the point of view for people that would like him here and I don't think a strong enough argument can be made convincingly enough from either side to be definitive enough to "win" the debate.

I'm fine either way, but if they DO sign him then they absolutely should move Kreider in the right deal - preferably this summer.

So can Namesnikov.

 

[haohmaru]

So can Namesnikov.

You missed the "elite" part of that sentence.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

You missed the "elite" part of that sentence.

You don't have to be elite to be a mentor.

 

[haohmaru]

You don't have to be elite to be a mentor.

No, and I didn't say that it did.

But, do you think Buchnevich would have better seasons and become more confident if he were playing on a line with Zibby/Panarin as opposed to Zibby/Namestnikov?

If Buchnevich figures out (and he has been a little lately) how to score consistently and develops the confidence that goes with that then I think he can take that next step to that level that we all think he's capable of. He really seems like a confidence-driven player to me and takes not scoring terribly seriously. I don't know enough about Kravstov to comment on him specifically (I doubt he'd be on the first line anyway after watching Quinn for a season) or how he might benefit (other than more points) from Panarin. I really think Buchnevich would but that's pure speculation on my part. We'll probably never know.

 

[bobbop]

I could see Cally coming back, I'm not sure exactly how tight Tampa's cap is next season but they have to re-sign Point, which is going to be ridiculous going from league minimum to like 8 million a year.

They've got some money coming off with Stralman, Coburn, and Girardi if they don't re-up them but they'll need to fill out the blueline somehow.

The short version is that I only think they'll give away a good asset to remove Cally for one year is if they really have no other option- and as I see it they do,

Tampa’s cap next year is so tight next year you couldn’t pull a needle out with a tractor.

 

[bobbop]

No it’s the perfect example. McDavid and Draisaitl are 100 point players each and they have only played on dog**** teams. They didn’t need anyone to help them get there. Good players will get there whether or not they have a “vet” to teach them along the way.

Maybe that’s the problem.

 

[GeorgeKaplan]

Maybe that’s the problem.

I mean, they tried getting a good vet, and they received a $6m anchor

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

I mean, they tried getting a good vet, and they received a $6m anchor

They've tried to sign several.

Lucic, Russell, Sekera...

 

[bobbop]

You guys should listen to the first 15-20 minutes of Elliotte Friedman's last podcast episode. Marek asked him if LA might be in on Panarin and Friedman shot that down and said he believes the Rangers are going to be "all in on Panarin." Marek followed that up with a question from a fan asking if the Rangers were going to stick with the rebuild. Friedman kind of hedged but again said that he believes the Rangers are "going to try to get better" and mentioned EK65 would love to play for the Rangers.

I mentioned a few months ago that Lebrun floated the idea on TSN radio that one of the reasons Lundqvist may be sticking around is the possibility that this tankathon would be one season and over. Suck this year, maximize assets, then try to jump back in in 2018-2019.

I worry about these things. Everytime Panarin's name is mentioned the Rangers are right there. I'm not advocating signing him. However, would it at all surprise me if they did? Not a bit. In my lifetime when the Rangers have had cap space and there's been a big name FA out there they've been in. We just did this with Shattenkirk. If this team could have gotten JT they would have.

The league is still a business. For the first time in a long time the organization is going to see what revenues look like without the playoffs.

A lot of you guys are much more confident in this organization's self-control then I am.

I’m down for Panarin but not for Karlsson. High end offensive skill is difficult to acquire. Just think about this...a few years ago, Ryan Strome was the fifth pick in the draft. There are no guarantees, non whatsoever that a bevy of high draft picks will, turn into a playoff contender.

Karlsson’s injury history worries me. If his mobility is compromised, his overall game is compromised. This kind of 2-4-1 would also put a short term crimp into the salary cap.

Lord know we need to find a top four defenseman this offseason but I don’t think it’s EK65.

 

[RGY]

What other way is there to interpret this?

"“I think Jeff Gorton and [assistant GM] Chris Drury have an idea you have to build from within,’’ Maloney said. “You can’t be mercenary, and I think this franchise has been mercenary for a particularly long time, and we have one Cup in 79 years.’’

Specifically the 2nd quote.

And they also acknowledge adding outside talent to what they are building from within at some point.

Panarin isnt some mercenary...

 

[Barnaby]

This whole idea that you can't do a full rebuild in NY is ridiculous. If the Leafs can do it in Toronto than the Rangers can certainly do it in NY.

Furthermore, in regards to "not being able to rebuild in NY," the Rangers will sell out or be damn near close to it no matter how bad they are. It's not like they are some small market team that won't be able to sell tickets. What's the worst that can happen? You get criticized on WFAN? I can handle a little bashing from Mike Francesca, the epically bad CMB show, or Larry Brooks via the Post. It'll all be forgotten when they have young stars and are gearing up for a big playoff run in a few years.

 

[Barnaby]

Theres a difference between signing just any UFA (lower market guys or even mid market guys) and signing the top shelf dudes. The best teams in this league are fueled by elite homegrown talent. Signing Panarin would be like trying to wire your house before the foundation is even set.

Now he doesn't turn this team into a middling playoff fodder on his own, but he does get in the way of having the best chance of landing said talent unless we just starting adding in a ton of other variables (players getting injured, declining, etc.)

Also the argument that he is going to teach players how to win is horrible. What exactly has he won in this league? I'm not even saying that hes a bad locker room guy and hes a hell of a player but he doesn't exactly have a ton of street cred.

I guess we missed the memo. Evidently, he's the Russian Mark Messier.

 

[DutchShamrock]

Ugh the Callahan angle is still being pushed? I mean, whatever to make the team better long term but it needs to be something that justifies the opportunity cost lost to taking on his salary. That's a very good UFA, or a significant trade, or salary retention in a trade to improve the return. Not saying we have to do one of them next season but a Callahan trade would hamper a big move later on.

I don't see Tampa selling Callahan with a bribe. They think their shit don't stink and will want an asset coming back. Nothing great, but they won't package him with a 1st or Foote or a high level prospect. If it's worse than an effective 4th liner I will be surprised.

 

[Barnaby]

No, and I didn't say that it did.

But, do you think Buchnevich would have better seasons and become more confident if he were playing on a line with Zibby/Panarin as opposed to Zibby/Namestnikov?

If Buchnevich figures out (and he has been a little lately) how to score consistently and develops the confidence that goes with that then I think he can take that next step to that level that we all think he's capable of. He really seems like a confidence-driven player to me and takes not scoring terribly seriously. I don't know enough about Kravstov to comment on him specifically (I doubt he'd be on the first line anyway after watching Quinn for a season) or how he might benefit (other than more points) from Panarin. I really think Buchnevich would but that's pure speculation on my part. We'll probably never know.

Will Buchnevich score more points with Panarin/Zib as opposed to Namestnikov/Zib? Probably. Is Buchnevich going to become a significantly better and more confident player? That's a little absurd.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

For real, he's a hell of a player but there will be guys as good or better available somewhere within the next 3-4 years whether its via trade or whatever.

The argument that some of these people are using for Panarin really applies to Karlsson who otoh, if he does get to UFA I do think will end up here (for better or for worse.)

And they also acknowledge adding outside talent to what they are building from within at some point.

Panarin isnt some mercenary...

"he believes if the organization collects enough talent and molds that talent into a good team, it can then go out and acquire the final pieces it needs to get to the promised land."

Emphasis on final pieces.

And why isn't he some mercenary? He'd basically be coming into the team from outside of the organization for a ton of money.

What makes him different other than the fact that you want this guy right now?

 

[Barnaby]

He won the Calder.

I guess I can see the veteran elite Russian argument considering the incoming/here Russian youth (Shesty, Krav, Buch, etc...)

But, like I've said a dozen times, I'm not really advocating for Panarin but I can see the point of view for people that would like him here and I don't think a strong enough argument can be made convincingly enough from either side to be definitive enough to "win" the debate.

I'm fine either way, but if they DO sign him then they absolutely should move Kreider in the right deal - preferably this summer.

So trade the guy who speaks Russian and could help these guys along having lived here, just to sign a Russian to help them along?

I'm not really addressing this at you - just don't think it's all that logical to trade Kreider to sign Panarin to help these Russians along. I've read this idea a few times.

How many more wins is Panarin worth if you're dealing Kreider? 3 games? 4? Now we finish 8 from the bottom instead of 4 from the bottom. Is that worth the crazy long term contract that will almost 100% be an anchor the last 2-3 years when this team should be peaking?

 

[Paulie Walnutz]

This whole idea that you can't do a full rebuild in NY is ridiculous. If the Leafs can do it in Toronto than the Rangers can certainly do it in NY.

Furthermore, in regards to "not being able to rebuild in NY," the Rangers will sell out or be damn near close to it no matter how bad they are. It's not like they are some small market team that won't be able to sell tickets. What's the worst that can happen? You get criticized on WFAN? I can handle a little bashing from Mike Francesca, the epically bad CMB show, or Larry Brooks via the Post. It'll all be forgotten when they have young stars and are gearing up for a big playoff run in a few years.

Fatcesa doesn’t know there’s a hockey team playing in NYC

 

[TheBloodyNine]

I’m down for Panarin but not for Karlsson. High end offensive skill is difficult to acquire. Just think about this...a few years ago, Ryan Strome was the fifth pick in the draft. There are no guarantees, non whatsoever that a bevy of high draft picks will, turn into a playoff contender.

Karlsson’s injury history worries me. If his mobility is compromised, his overall game is compromised. This kind of 2-4-1 would also put a short term crimp into the salary cap.

Lord know we need to find a top four defenseman this offseason but I don’t think it’s EK65.

And Mark Schiefele was the 7th pick in that draft, and Mika the 6th pick. Perhaps if the Isles had a better scouting department they would have picked him over future number 1 center Schiefele.

 

[Lundy HOF]

What other way is there to interpret this?

"“I think Jeff Gorton and [assistant GM] Chris Drury have an idea you have to build from within,’’ Maloney said. “You can’t be mercenary, and I think this franchise has been mercenary for a particularly long time, and we have one Cup in 79 years.’’

Specifically the 2nd quote.

You are aware that this quote does not reinforce your point lol this team has amassed a tremendous amount of draft picks and prospects over the last 2 years.

I am not saying that they will sign Panarin or even whether or not it is the right thing to do. But I do think saying that the idea of signing him is contrarian to the above is flawed logic at best.

Edge has hit on this numerous times that perhaps the timing is not right but we all need to get onboard that fundamentally adding FAs (while also adding prospects and additional draft picks) is not a completely divergent path from “rebuilding”.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

You are aware that this quote does not reinforce your point lol this team has amassed a tremendous amount of draft picks and prospects over the last 2 years.

I am not saying that they will sign Panarin or even whether or not it is the right thing to do. But I do think saying that the idea of signing him is contrarian to the above is flawed logic at best.

Edge has hit on this numerous times that perhaps the timing is not right but we all need to get onboard that fundamentally adding FAs (while also adding prospects and additional draft picks) is not a completely divergent path from “rebuilding”.

They have but you're right, the 2nd quote did a better job of illustrating what I was saying.