Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XXVI - Point Of No Return

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Wont be so funny when they get Hughes :(
The point was that they cannot get worse than they are now, whereas several teams, including us, will definitely be worse down this final stretch of 30 games
 
Neal Pionk is starting to get thrown into trade proposals. People are ready to give up on Brett Howden, or at least he has a really long way to go since he is one of the worst forwards in the league. For a young kid who have come in with a chippy attitude and put up points like Pionk have, he has really been thrashed from day 1 for having bad metrics. When asked if those metrics could have anything to do with his usage, by far the toughest on the team, and if they might improve if he gets a little easier role or played in a better environment -- the answer has always been that it is very very very unlikely. The numbers are water proof.

At the same time, its hard not to look at Dan Girardi. He has been claimed to be the -- by far -- worst defender in the league in terms of possession. Possibly worst ever. Supposedly, if there ever was anyone who had a statistical identity that mirrored his totallay worthless play on the ice and never would change it was Dan Girardi. Right? But the odd thing is that he -- over night -- when he changed teams totally did a 180' on his statistical identity.

His CF% is 50,7%. His relative CF is way better than many guys on Tampa, including guys like Point, Tyler Jonson, Ryan McDonagh and Anton Stralman. His relative CF is 400% better than some of those guys.

Then everyone will say, but Ola, Dan Girardi plays for a good team with good players, everyone know that you cannot compare relative CF numbers from a good team with relative CF numbers on a bad team. But its funny that a supposed possession driver like Anton Stralman is coming in at 47% and a relative CF of minus 6 on the same team...

Is it possible that Neal Pionk -- in the same manner -- could post a 50% CF and a relative CF close to zero just like Dan Girardi if he played for another team (or if we had a better team)? Is it even likely that his statistical identity for this tanking NYR team -- just like Girardi's -- more or less would have nothing whatsoever to do with how he would look for another team or if we had a better team?

@silverfish @Machinehead @Raspewtin @ManUtdTobbe #GirardiDaPossesssionDriver? #Confused #DrinkingCoffee
 
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Neal Pionk is starting to get thrown into trade proposals. People are ready to give up on Brett Howden, or at least he has a really long way to go since he is one of the worst forwards in the league. For a young kid who have come in with a chippy attitude and put up points like Pionk have, he has really been thrashed from day 1 for having bad metrics. When asked if those metrics could have anything to do with his usage, by far the toughest on the team, and if they might improve if he gets a little easier role or played in a better environment -- the answer has always been that it is very very very unlikely. The numbers are water proof.

At the same time, its hard not to look at Dan Girardi. He has been claimed to be the -- by far -- worst defender in the league in terms of possession. Possibly worst ever. Supposedly, if there ever was anyone who had a statistical identity that mirrored his totallay worthless play on the ice and never would change it was Dan Girardi. Right? But the odd thing is that he -- over night -- when he changed teams totally did a 180' on his statistical identity.

His CF% is 50,7%. His relative CF is way better than many guys on Tampa, including guys like Point, Tyler Jonson, Ryan McDonagh and Anton Stralman. His relative CF is 400% better than some of those guys.

Then everyone will say, but Ola, Dan Girardi plays for a good team with good players, everyone know that you cannot compare relative CF numbers from a good team with relative CF numbers on a bad team. But its funny that a supposed possession driver like Anton Stralman is coming in at 47% and a relative CF of minus 6 on the same team...

Is it possible that Neal Pionk -- in the same manner -- could post a 50% CF and a relative CF close to zero just like Dan Girardi if he played for another team (or if we had a better team)? Is it even likely that his statistical identity for this tanking NYR team -- just like Girardi's -- more or less would have nothing whatsoever to do with how he would look for another team or if we had a better team?

@silverfish @Machinehead @Raspewtin @ManUtdTobbe #GirardiDaPossesssionDriver? #Confused #DrinkingCoffee

Interesting argument. That being said, I feel Girardi (as well as nearly all other D-Men here) were severely underrated due to AV's system and deployment. I would have never expected him to bounce back the way he has, but I'm not incredibly surprised that he proved to be better than he was here.

That being said, the issue with Girardi was never 'is he an NHL D-Man,' it was 'is he STILL an NHL d-man.' I just don't see Pionk as being a good player. Sure, he has some very good offensive skills, but I'm not sold on his ability to handle regular minutes in the NHL other than in specialty situations.

However, I wouldn't give up on him at all. I think he has been completely mishandled this year. He should have never been on the first pair. He is a third pairing guy at best that should be getting 10-12 ES minutes per night + PP time. The fact that he was getting deployed against top pairings and registering 20+ minutes per night was absolutely nuts. I think he can be a useful player, but you can't blame people for writing him off when night after night he looks so overmatched.

I think there are a few people on this board - and in general - who are able to look past a player's on-ice performance and assess other things that might be holding them back. However, those are few and far between. You can't really blame the people that 'give up' on a guy - whether it's an oldie like Girardi or a young one like Pionk - based on their consistent poor performances.

In addition, I'm not enamored with Quinn's performance this year. He's better then AV in that he's not stale, but he's way to old school for my liking. I think he's gotten a lot from this group, but I can imagine his act will wear thin, much like Torts' did here and I'm not convinced he can take the team to the next level once they are ready to do so. I also think his developmental aspects are somewhat overrated. I hope to be proven wrong, but thus far I've hardly been impressed.
 
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Is there anyone that actually provides decent insight/rumors any more? Are there any rumors we can latch onto? The only guy I trust these days is Larry but he is always so vague so it's more reading between the lines.

McKenzie is obviously reliable, but he reports things like minutes before they happen.
 
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Is there anyone that actually provides decent insight/rumors any more? Are there any rumors we can latch onto? The only guy I trust these days is Larry but he is always so vague so it's more reading between the lines.

McKenzie is obviously reliable, but he reports things like minutes before they happen.

Darren Dreger usually has things a day or two before they happen but usually hints around at them in uncertain terms. He has Hayes and Winnipeg as a match, we will see if that happens.
 
How about this for a scenario. We trade Hayes for a 1st+ for the 2020-2021 season, trade Zuc and Namestnicov for a 1st in 2021-2022 season. Offer sheet Marner for 13.5 and give up your own 4 first rounders. This scenario leaves us short 2 first rounders in 2022-24 but allows us to continue to rebuild with other teams 1st rounders the next two years and we add a bonafide superstar to the team. Would Toronto match? Maybe it would have to be higher for them not to but either way they end up handcuffed and we continue to rebuild and they arent a ridiculous powerhouse through our rebuild.
 
How about this for a scenario. We trade Hayes for a 1st+ for the 2020-2021 season, trade Zuc and Namestnicov for a 1st in 2021-2022 season. Offer sheet Marner for 13.5 and give up your own 4 first rounders. This scenario leaves us short 2 first rounders in 2022-24 but allows us to continue to rebuild with other teams 1st rounders the next two years and we add a bonafide superstar to the team. Would Toronto match? Maybe it would have to be higher for them not to but either way they end up handcuffed and we continue to rebuild and they arent a ridiculous powerhouse through our rebuild.

No. The whole point of high first round picks is to get elite talent on cheap contracts. Just commit to sucking for a little while longer. Enough with the quick fixes.
 
People continue to look at each trade in a bubble, which is inherently flawed. Its not about if the exact pick/prospect acquired for player X ends up better than player X. Its about if the sum of all the assets the team has results in a better overall roster down the road.

Even if those picks/prospects completely bust, but we hit elsewhere on different assets. the trades were worth it. Its all about getting as many dips in the bucket as you can, and having enough options that you're comfortable taking risks; like trading up or taking dynamic but risky players.
 
I don’t see the teams around us with much to offer. Ottawa really is the only one with duchene and stone and I still think both get done.

LA all their guys have term
Devils have nothing to sell
Edmonton nothing
Anaheim nothing really guys all have term
AZ nothing and in the race
Stl is in the race
Chicago in the race playing well
Philly playing really well maybe Simmonds but that won’t hurt their overall game much

Whereas the NYR conceivably are going to move Zucc Hayes McQuaid At the very least. Probably will move Claesson. And have namestnikov vesey Fast buchnevich Smith Shattenkirk all with little term or rfa status to possibly dangle. We’re going to get much much worse while the others probably aren’t going to look much different than they do now.
 
Dan Girardi's aggregate rel ranks for the two years he's been with TB, among D with 800 TOI minimum (leaving us with the 6 regular defensemen TB uses):

-2.87 relCF% - 6th
-2.01 relGF% - 5th
-0.76 relXGF% - 4th

I don't know, but to me, that's still pretty bad.

And yes, Stralman is breaking down and having a very bad year. I don't think you'll find anyone who uses advanced stats saying otherwise. But if you look at his stats over the last 5 seasons (including this one), he's still miles better than Girardi. He has many consecutive good seasons recently, and one bad one (this current season), whereas Girardi didn't (albeit he has been better in TB than with NYR, yes, but still bad).

As for Pionk:

1) Using the "he puts up points" argument is dumb. 14 of his points in the first 20 games, 6 in the following 26. He doesn't "put up points" and a lot of his points have been fluff.
2) His poor play was somewhat tolerable because of his scoring streak, but it was easy to see that the scoring would dry up and he would continue to play poorly. Lo and behold...that happened.
3) As for his stats getting better with easier usage, I'm sure they will...but they'll still be bad. Bad rel players usually continue to be bad rel players no matter what the usage, and there is nothing when I watch Pionk that tells me that will change. Same with Girardi.

Also, if you're going to bold phrases and whatnot in your post, at least make it non-hyperbole. Girardi did not "do a 180" and he is not "400% better"
 
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Players on LTIR still count against the cap. In the summer, there is no LTIR, but teams can go up to 10% over the cap. If the cap is 83 mil next year, that means they can go 8.3 mil over during the summer. Horton only takes up 5.3 mil of that.

When the season starts, he is placed on LTIR, but he still counts against the cap. However, Toronto will be allowed to go over the cap based on their total cap commitment when they place him on LTIR. For example, if they are at 82 mil to start the season and they place him on LTIR, they can then go over the cap by 4.3 mil (82 + 5.3 = 87.3). Teams in this situation try to get as close to the cap as possible before placing the player(s) on LTIR so that they can get the maximum amount of LTIR cap space (though there is a limit, I think).

LTIR cap space doesn't work the same as regular cap space. Regular cap space can be banked. LTIR space is use it or lose it.

Imagine the cap is 100 million and the season is 100 days long. That means teams can spend 1 mil per day. On day 1 of the season, they only spend 950k. That 50k that they didn't spend can be saved to use later in the season.

Now imagine the same 100 mil cap and 100 day season, but a team places a player on LTIR and now they can go up to 105 mil (1.05 mil per day). On day one, they spend 1.02 mil. That 30k that they didn't spend CANNOT be saved and used later.
To add to this, including Horton, Toronto has $72M in salary committed for next season. That includes 8F (not including Horton, since he's never playing again), 5D, and 1G.

Assuming the cap goes up the full 5% next season, taking it to $83.475M, the 10% summer cap buffer brings it to $91.823M.

Toronto's key RFA list:
Marner
Kapanen
Johnsson
Sparks

UFA list:
Lindholm
Gardiner

Essentially, Toronto has $20M to fill out their roster with a mixture of RFAs and UFAs. They could use that entire amount, but then would need to shed almost $8.5M in salary before Day 1 of the Regular Season. Horton is an automatic $5.3M to LTIR. That leaves $3.2M more to shed. They need 4F, 1D, and 1G. They essentially have $16.8M to do it.

Will Marner accept a bridge deal? That's the big question. I can't remember the last time a player that good got bridged coming off their ELC. Even if he did, I would imagine his AAV still lands somewhere in the $7M+ range, but I'm sure RB has a better idea. Probably over $10M if he takes a similar deal to Matthews.

Kapanen is probably looking at $3.25M on a bridge deal.

Johnsson maybe $2M.

If they can get Sparks to sign his QO, that's about $700k.

Assume they let their UFAs walk.

All in all, that leaves a little less than $4M to sign one more F and one more D to get them to the absolute smallest roster they can have. They also have that additional $3.2M that they can exceed the cap by over the summer.

And that's the rosiest scenario I can put together for that team, and that's with their defense still looking like trash.

If Marner won't accept a bridge, or they want to actually improve their D, they absolutely have to move someone with a sizable cap hit. Prime suspects would be Nylander ($7M - 5 more years), Kadri ($4.5 - 3 more years), or Zaitsev ($4.5M - 5 more years).

Nylander probably has a lot of value, but has been trash this season after holding out. Kadri is a decent contract for them, so I don't think they'd want to move him. Zaitsev is basically unmovable with the length of his contract.

I guess the obvious conclusion is that Nylander is a goner, but Toronto is in a tough spot. They're more than likely not going to trade Nylander during the season, because they're going for it now. However, the longer they wait, the more of a cap crunch they're going to be in as it becomes obvious to other GMs that they don't have the cap space to re-sign their RFAs. Factor in something crazy happening like a $12M offer sheet on Marner. Nashville could actually get away with something like that. 4 late 1sts for a guy who would instantly become their best F makes a lot of sense.
 
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If there was a value associated with taking Horton, I'd do that, for sure
If Marner and their other RFAs grind them down in negotiations, and they're finding it hard to move Nylander for fair value, I could see Horton coming into play. If they really end up needing the summer cap space to make moves, who knows. I would say it's unlikely at this point, but there's an outside shot that his contract becomes something TOR needs to move.
 
The Leafs' payroll will reflect the Horton amount in the summer and they cannot exceed the cap by more than 10%. If Marner signs an offersheet that would put Toronto over the 10% with a match, they can't match until they shed salary.

That's when Nylander or Horton come into play. They'll have 5 days to move money and match. They won't get fair value on a real player or they will get gouged on Horton.

Marner won't sign early for less than Matthews. So if they step up and pay, they will be moving someone to fix the holes on D left by Gardiner and they talent gap that keeps them out of the upper echelon. We need maneuverability this summer.
 
I don't agree that the Devils have nothing to sell. They have pieces they can use--UFA's--Boyle, Johansson, Kinkaid. None of those guys should bring back anything like a 1st round pick though. There are other possible pieces depending on whether or not they want to do something like we did last year. They could possibly move on from a guy like Palmieri. He would get a very good return. There's Andy Greene. Even Pavel Zacha who is still very young but has kind of been spinning his wheels. And Blake Coleman who will go over 20 goals this year and would be a very good addition to almost any team's third line.
 
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Is there anyone that actually provides decent insight/rumors any more? Are there any rumors we can latch onto? The only guy I trust these days is Larry but he is always so vague so it's more reading between the lines.

McKenzie is obviously reliable, but he reports things like minutes before they happen.

Rumors are harder to come by these days. In the age of the social media, it’s simply too risky for info to leak out there.

And in some cases, when info is available, people don’t want to put it out there because it’s easy to trace to them.
 
To add to this, including Horton, Toronto has $72M in salary committed for next season. That includes 8F (not including Horton, since he's never playing again), 5D, and 1G.

Assuming the cap goes up the full 5% next season, taking it to $83.475M, the 10% summer cap buffer brings it to $91.823M.

Toronto's key RFA list:
Marner
Kapanen
Johnsson
Sparks

UFA list:
Lindholm
Gardiner

Essentially, Toronto has $20M to fill out their roster with a mixture of RFAs and UFAs. They could use that entire amount, but then would need to shed almost $8.5M in salary before Day 1 of the Regular Season. Horton is an automatic $5.3M to LTIR. That leaves $3.2M more to shed. They need 4F, 1D, and 1G. They essentially have $16.8M to do it.

Will Marner accept a bridge deal? That's the big question. I can't remember the last time a player that good got bridged coming off their ELC. Even if he did, I would imagine his AAV still lands somewhere in the $7M+ range, but I'm sure RB has a better idea. Probably over $10M if he takes a similar deal to Matthews.

Kapanen is probably looking at $3.25M on a bridge deal.

Johnsson maybe $2M.

If they can get Sparks to sign his QO, that's about $700k.

Assume they let their UFAs walk.

All in all, that leaves a little less than $4M to sign one more F and one more D to get them to the absolute smallest roster they can have. They also have that additional $3.2M that they can exceed the cap by over the summer.

And that's the rosiest scenario I can put together for that team, and that's with their defense still looking like trash.

If Marner won't accept a bridge, or they want to actually improve their D, they absolutely have to move someone with a sizable cap hit. Prime suspects would be Nylander ($7M - 5 more years), Kadri ($4.5 - 3 more years), or Zaitsev ($4.5M - 5 more years).

Nylander probably has a lot of value, but has been trash this season after holding out. Kadri is a decent contract for them, so I don't think they'd want to move him. Zaitsev is basically unmovable with the length of his contract.

I guess the obvious conclusion is that Nylander is a goner, but Toronto is in a tough spot. They're more than likely not going to trade Nylander during the season, because they're going for it now. However, the longer they wait, the more of a cap crunch they're going to be in as it becomes obvious to other GMs that they don't have the cap space to re-sign their RFAs. Factor in something crazy happening like a $12M offer sheet on Marner. Nashville could actually get away with something like that. 4 late 1sts for a guy who would instantly become their best F makes a lot of sense.

Marleau is on a 35+ contract and after his 3 mil signing bonus, he only has 1.25 mil in salary remaining. Toronto could trade him to Arizona or some other cap floor team after July 1st. Arizona buys him out during the 2nd buyout window for 2/3rds (833,333) but still has 6.25 mil in cap because it's a 35+ contract. Marleau then re-signs with Toronto.

Marleau would have to agree to it, but he ends up getting more money and still gets to play in Toronto, so I don't know why he would be opposed to it.

The league might say something about it, but after Washington did the same thing with Orpik last year and the league said it was okay, I have a hard time seeing how they can stop Toronto from doing it. It may be something that the NHL will look to prohibit in the next CBA.
 
Is Mitch Marner as good as he is away from Austin Matthews? Would he be elite if he was on our roster? I dont know all the advanced stats or TOI with certain players, etc. I think Mattews would be elite on a weaker roster. I dont know if Marner would be
 
Marleau is on a 35+ contract and after his 3 mil signing bonus, he only has 1.25 mil in salary remaining. Toronto could trade him to Arizona or some other cap floor team after July 1st. Arizona buys him out during the 2nd buyout window for 2/3rds (833,333) but still has 6.25 mil in cap because it's a 35+ contract. Marleau then re-signs with Toronto.

Marleau would have to agree to it, but he ends up getting more money and still gets to play in Toronto, so I don't know why he would be opposed to it.

The league might say something about it, but after Washington did the same thing with Orpik last year and the league said it was okay, I have a hard time seeing how they can stop Toronto from doing it. It may be something that the NHL will look to prohibit in the next CBA.

Doesn't a player need to be unconditionally waived before any buyout? And I guess, if so that leads to wouldn't someone maybe claim Marleau as his real money owed would be pretty low?

Edit: I guess if he has a clause he can block waivers.

Which I guess is the loophole
 
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