Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XXIII

[Vinny DeAngelo]

I don't know about that.

Lets see what the actual final market is. Last years market was pretty shallow, this year looks like it may be a bit more plentiful.

Simmons/Stone/Nyquist (who has term left I think) are all superior options.

I don't believe for a second Panarin is getting traded. We'll see what happens with Ferland (who I'd probably slot ahead of Zucc too), I could see the Canes self renting him.

Then I blame the front office for not seeing the foresight to trade him earlier... It was pretty clear to see those teams would be bad. They should've traded him earlier then.. Theres no saving face for me if they fail to get more for Zucc(a known scorer in the league) than Grabner(a guy that had a couple hot years in NY)

 

[Thirty One]

Its not 23 either.

Seems like a pretty good age to me.

 

[Avery16]

Seems like a pretty good age to me.

How many stanley cup winners are there with a 23 year old 1C? 23 is great when you're developing a championship team, not when you're competing for said championship.

 

[Avery16]

How many stanley cup winners are there with a 23 year old 1C? 23 is great when you're developing a championship team, not when you're competing for said championship.

I know Toews, Crosby

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Then I blame the front office for not seeing the foresight to trade him earlier... It was pretty clear to see those teams would be bad. They should've traded him earlier then.. Theres no saving face for me if they fail to get more for Zucc(a known scorer in the league) than Grabner(a guy that had a couple hot years in NY)

Preaching to the choir here.

But in Grabner's case, he followed up a full season of scoring a bunch of goals with another season where he was scoring even more. Sometimes what you're doing now is more important than what you've done before (Grabner), sometimes it isn't (Nash)

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

I know Toews, Crosby

Kopitar was 24 the first time the Kings won.

 

[GAGLine]

How many stanley cup winners are there with a 23 year old 1C? 23 is great when you're developing a championship team, not when you're competing for said championship.

Eric Staal? Crosby? Toews? I think they were all 23 or younger.

Kopitar was 24 and Bergeron was 25.

This argument suggests that you wouldn't want McDavid, Matthews or MacKinnon as your 1C on a cup contending team. Give me a great player, regardless of his age.

 

[Avery16]

Eric Staal? Crosby? Toews? I think they were all 23 or younger.

Kopitar was 24 and Bergeron was 25.

This argument suggests that you wouldn't want McDavid, Matthews or MacKinnon as your 1C on a cup contending team. Give me a great player, regardless of his age.

The argument was about having a 28 year old 1C going into the playoffs as opposed to a 23 year old 1C. Im not going to do the leg work on this, but Ill willing to bet that more Cups were won with a 1C that was 28 or older than with a 1C that was 23 or younger.

There just aren't a lot of Toews/Crosby/Matthews out there. And Edmonton sucks for a reason.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

The argument was about having a 28 year old 1C going into the playoffs as opposed to a 23 year old 1C. Im not going to do the leg work on this, but Ill willing to bet that more Cups were won with a 1C that was 28 or older than with a 1C that was 23 or younger.

You want as many elite players as possible.

Age/position doesn't really matter.

 

[Avery16]

You want as many elite players as possible.

Age/position doesn't really matter.

OK and were not talking about whether or not to have an elite player, but whether Zibanejad at 28 is better to have for a playoff run than Necas at 23.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

OK and were not talking about whether or not to have an elite player, but whether Zibanejad at 28 is better to have for a playoff run than Necas at 23.

Ok then why did you bring up Crosby and Toews, who qualify as elite?

 

[GAGLine]

The argument was about having a 28 year old 1C going into the playoffs as opposed to a 23 year old 1C. Im not going to do the leg work on this, but Ill willing to bet that more Cups were won with a 1C that was 28 or older than with a 1C that was 23 or younger.

There just aren't a lot of Toews/Crosby/Matthews out there. And Edmonton sucks for a reason.

Maybe, but having a 1C that is 23 or younger gives you more chances than a 1C that is 28 or older. Kopitar was 26 the last time they won a cup. Look at that team now. You think he's winning another one? Maybe, but probably not as the 1C.

Toews last cup also came when he was 26.

The league is skewing younger. The further you go back, the more I'm sure you'll find older 1Cs that won the cup, but today, it's the young guys that win more often than not.

OV finally got his cup thanks to Kuznetsov , who was 25.

Kucherov is 25 and leading the league in scoring. Tampa may not win the cup this year, but they are the odds on favorite right now.

If our 1C is 28 the first year we are ready to compete, our window to compete won't be very long unless we have a younger guy ready to step up and replace him.

If our 1C is 23 or younger, and our team is a cup contender, then he's good enough to help us win it.

 

[effen]

Too much risk for my taste if Zibanejad is the centerpiece for Necas. Would be much more tolerable if it’s either Kreider or Hayes but in both cases there should be + coming from the Canes.

Ziba is the centerpiece for Necas? You have it backwards my dude. It doesn't work that way.

 

[GAGLine]

OK and were not talking about whether or not to have an elite player, but whether Zibanejad at 28 is better to have for a playoff run than Necas at 23.

That's a different argument than the one I responded to.

For that one year, Zbad is probably the answer, but if I'm looking at seriously competing for years, give me both and Necas can replace Zbad when the time comes (assuming Necas turns out to be good, which isn't a given at this point).

 

[Fvital92]

Yeah, let's trade our 25 years old center. best center since forever, for a prospect and let's add more. I can't believe some people .

 

[Avery16]

Ok then why did you bring up Crosby and Toews, who qualify as elite?

I guess scroll back and check the context before jumping in?

 

[Avery16]

In 2021 Zibanejad will be 28. That's a perfect age for a 1st or 2nd line center for a team trying to contend. Why trade him away? Younger is not always better.

This is what spawned the 23 > 28 discussion. The premise was trade Zib because at 28 he'll be too old to 1C a championship team.

 

[Thirty One]

The argument was about having a 28 year old 1C going into the playoffs as opposed to a 23 year old 1C. Im not going to do the leg work on this, but Ill willing to bet that more Cups were won with a 1C that was 28 or older than with a 1C that was 23 or younger.

There just aren't a lot of Toews/Crosby/Matthews out there. And Edmonton sucks for a reason.

Ages of 1C centers of Cup winners since the 05 lockout:
25
29
28
26
26
24
24
24
25
21
21
29
29
20

So yeah, give me the 23 year old at the beginning of a Cup contention window any day.

 

[Avery16]

Ages of 1C centers of Cup winners since the 05 lockout:
25
29
28
26
26
24
24
24
25
21
21
29
29
20

So yeah, give me the 23 year old at the beginning of a Cup contention window any day.

I think as long as the 23 year old's name is Toews or Crosby, this is fine. Otherwise, you might be better off sticking with the 1C you have that'll turn 28 instead of the player you hope can be a 1C when they turn 23.

 

[Mac n Gs]

Ages of 1C centers of Cup winners since the 05 lockout:
25
29
28
26
26
24
24
24
25
21
21
29
29
20

So yeah, give me the 23 year old at the beginning of a Cup contention window any day.

Right, and again, it’s why I threw this out there as an idea. It’s about the new window starting in 2021-22 moving forward. It wouldn’t be a straight swap for Necas, it would require either one more significant piece or two other quality pieces.

 

[Edge]

The Rangers were asking for #1 for Grabner at the beginning but they accepted a 2nd and Rykov. The 2nd was used to move up for Miller.

And I think the article is pretty accurate on all fronts.

I’d be shocked if the Rangers aren’t asking for a first for Zucc. But, I’ve always felt they’d prefer a prospect to a pick when it came to Zucc.

So if that means taking a lower pick, to get a prospect they like, I don’t think they’d blink too many times.

As for Hayes, I’m hoping Duchene stays off the market. But I don’t think his inclusion has that dramatic of an impact on Hayes. One team is going to get Duchene, which means everyone else has to go a different direction if they want a center.

 

[Thirty One]

I think as long as the 23 year old's name is Toews or Crosby, this is fine. Otherwise, you might be better off sticking with the 1C you have that'll turn 28 instead of the player you hope can be a 1C when they turn 23.

If we're talking about one year, you might have a point. But if we're (arbitrarily) saying that 2021 is the start of the window of contention, that means there's probably more likely years ahead.

 

[LORDE]

I think as long as the 23 year old's name is Toews or Crosby, this is fine. Otherwise, you might be better off sticking with the 1C you have that'll turn 28 instead of the player you hope can be a 1C when they turn 23.

What if his name is... oh I dunno... randomly I’ll say... hmmmmmmmmmmm... Hughes?

What then?

 

[DutchShamrock]

And I think the article is pretty accurate on all fronts.

I’d be shocked if the Rangers aren’t asking for a first for Zucc. But, I’ve always felt they’d prefer a prospect to a pick when it came to Zucc.

So if that means taking a lower pick, to get a prospect they like, I don’t think they’d blink too many times.

As for Hayes, I’m hoping Duchene stays off the market. But I don’t think his inclusion has that dramatic of an impact on Hayes. One team is going to get Duchene, which means everyone else has to go a different direction if they want a center.

I feel like there are different customers for Hayes and Duchene. Hayes is there to shore up your depth. Duchene will throw off team chemistry because he is too expensive and talented to not slot in at the top. Everything changes for him, Hayes is the move you make to alter one line.

 

[Griffinbw]

And I think the article is pretty accurate on all fronts.

I’d be shocked if the Rangers aren’t asking for a first for Zucc. But, I’ve always felt they’d prefer a prospect to a pick when it came to Zucc.

So if that means taking a lower pick, to get a prospect they like, I don’t think they’d blink too many times.

As for Hayes, I’m hoping Duchene stays off the market. But I don’t think his inclusion has that dramatic of an impact on Hayes. One team is going to get Duchene, which means everyone else has to go a different direction if they want a center.

I know we think duchene hitting the market drops Hayes’ value, but you almost have to consider whether it helps. If there’s no one else in that caliber of center on the market, then it almost creates an arms race. Team A and B are equal until Team A gets duchene, then Team B needs Hayes even more.