Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XXI

[Fitzy]

You guys have been listening to RB too much. the Next NYR team to go deep in the postseason isn't going to have zero players 28 years of age or older. That's the logic of a guy who has been playing too much franchise hockey simulator.

 

[NYRFANMANI]

Rangers are bad, try to make the AHL good.

If the AHL does not turn out to be a good developmental place, what is the point to this rebuild?

Are they not going to continue to add prospects who will or should play there?

Very important point! Look at the past and present powerhouses. Most of their AHL affiliates were in the hunt for the Calder Cups.

It appears more and more to me that this rebuild is still in phase one and it will be a sad and long journey.

 

[Gardner McKay]

My view is that if the Rangers are depending on Howden to be more than a very good 3rd line center, then the rebuild is not going to be successful.

Howden is 20.

At that same age Nikita Kucherov put up 18 points in 52 games. No, I do not think Howden, Chytil, etc. are going to be a Kucherov. But this is the first NHL season of his career and sometimes it is hard to take that leap during the season. It is possible that Howden comes back next year and takes that next step.

This is coming from someone who is harder on young guys than anyone, someone who has **** all over Puljujarvi since his rookie season and from someone who wouldn't trade Kevin Hayes for Nolan Patrick because I don't see Patrick as a great NHL player.

 

[One Winged Angel]

Look at his draft. From the 17th pick down to the 30th pick, no one is outperforming Howden in the NHL. Only 4 of those 13 other guys have played in the NHL to this point and the most "successful" in the NHL is Tage Thompson, another center who has 18 points in 77 games. What should he be doing to justify his position? If the rest of those guys are any indication, he should be in the AHL, where most of them are. If he's in over his head at the moment, he's in good company with every other dude drafted after him other than DeBrincat in Round 2 and Bratt drafted in Round 6.

If he was in the AHL, where he should be, putting up nice numbers, I don't think anyone would be questioning if he looks like a first round pick. But either way, again looking at the draft board, I don't know how you could reasonably make the argument that he was somehow unworthy of the 27th overall pick. Really, go look at it and tell me who is more worthy:

2016 NHL Entry Draft Picks at hockeydb.com

Give me Steel, DeBrincat, Girard, Hart, Raddysh (who I thought they would target) and Kyrou any day of the week.

Howden is at the NHL level because of a complete lack of center depth. You think if Tampa wasn’t as deep as they are that Raddysh wouldn’t be up? That Katchouk wouldn’t at least get a look?

Gorton got two of their most expendable assets who don’t have high projections. He got safe players that will be serviceable. You can’t do that when trading your number one defenseman and a young top-6 forward away.

Do you honestly think that Howden has more of a chance to be a top-6 forward now than Sam Steel does, just because Howden’s at the NHL level at this point and Steel is not? Or any of the forwards I listed above for that matter.

If so, that’s a short-sighted approach which doesn’t take into account a lot of factors.

 

[One Winged Angel]

A late first rounder. Namestnikov technically is a first rounder too, so was Korpikoski. They’re not all offensive dynamos. Management probably knew his ceiling was a good 3C when they made the trade.

If that is the case that’s dropping the ball big time. You can’t trade your best defenseman for that.

 

[Dijock94]

If that is the case that’s dropping the ball big time. You can’t trade your best defenseman for that.

You’re forgetting Hajek who apparently was the main piece of the trade.

Also the potential two first round picks.

 

[One Winged Angel]

You’re forgetting Hajek who apparently was the main piece of the trade.

Also the potential two first round picks.

Hajek is the main piece of the trade? If so, they put WAY TOO MUCH STOCK into his WJC performance.

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

Hajek is the main piece of the trade? If so, they put WAY TOO MUCH STOCK into his WJC performance.

Yes Gorton wouldn't do the deal without Hajek's inclusion

 

[RangerBoy]

You guys have been listening to RB too much. the Next NYR team to go deep in the postseason isn't going to have zero players 28 years of age or older. That's the logic of a guy who has been playing too much franchise hockey simulator.

I have no idea what you are referring too but I know one thing about this Rangers team....none of the veteran players on this team are part of the solution. The Rangers are light-years away from having a team going deep into the postseason and having a legitimate chance of winning a championship.

 

[nyr2k2]

Give me Steel, DeBrincat, Girard, Hart, Raddysh (who I thought they would target) and Kyrou any day of the week.

Howden is at the NHL level because of a complete lack of center depth. You think if Tampa wasn’t as deep as they are that Raddysh wouldn’t be up? That Katchouk wouldn’t at least get a look?

Gorton got two of their most expendable assets who don’t have high projections. He got safe players that will be serviceable. You can’t do that when trading your number one defenseman and a young top-6 forward away.

Do you honestly think that Howden has more of a chance to be a top-6 forward now than Sam Steel does, just because Howden’s at the NHL level at this point and Steel is not? Or any of the forwards I listed above for that matter.

If so, that’s a short-sighted approach which doesn’t take into account a lot of factors.

Half the league would have taken DeBrincat in a do-over. Probably the same for Girard. A lot of teams miss--every year there are a handful of guys who should have gone round one that didn't. But that doesn't make other guys who did go in the first unworthy.

Having watched both Katchouk and Howden a lot in junior (especially Katchouk), I would take Howden every day of the week. I definitely think Howden would be matching Katchouk's AHL production if he was down there where he should be. Raddysh, probably a toss up for me. I have zero interest in Carter Hart, and certainly nowhere near round one. Kyrou I would have taken over Howden.

Anyway, I know why Howden is up. He's here because we're shit. The other guys aren't up because for many of them, their teams are not shit! Howden should be in the AHL, I have said this repeatedly. It just seems that people are now panning him, calling him unworthy of a first round pick, because we've put him in a position to fail. If we weren't shit, he'd be in the AHL like the others and he'd probably be doing really well and everyone would still be excited about him.

Howden has been a big time prospect since he entered the WHL years ago. He had an accomplished junior career. He was good for Team Canada. Literally everyone had him pegged as a first round pick, because of his tangible and intangible skills. He absolutely deserved to be drafted in round one. No doubt about it. That he's being asked to do too much shouldn't diminish his stock, at least relative to his peers who haven't been put in the same position to fail. You want to cherry pick guys from round two or later that should have gone in front of him, fine, but that's lots of players in every round one.

 

[Dijock94]

Hajek is the main piece of the trade? If so, they put WAY TOO MUCH STOCK into his WJC performance.

That’s what was reported. Btw he was a really good from what I saw in juniors. But hate the trade all you want it got us (Howden, Hajek, Lundkvist, and a 1st/2nd) that’s potentially filling a lot of the future roster.

 

[Gardner McKay]

If that is the case that’s dropping the ball big time. You can’t trade your best defenseman for that.

This is part of the problem with rebuilds and/or trading big name players. You rarely ever get full value and there is a lot of risk involved.

Would the rangers be in a playoff spot right now if they decided to keep McDonagh (who is healthy) and JT Miller and possibly made a few different signings in the off season? Very likely. Are they beating Tampa in a 7 game series? lol. But still, they would be a playoff team. At the same time, we likely don't have Kravtsov, K. Miller, etc and the retool is significantly farther behind where we are now.

This deadline, IMO, is the most important one we will have. Zucc and McQuaid are definitely goners. How they choose to deal with Hayes and Kreider tell me a lot about where they believe the organization is. If they keep Hayes and Kreider both, they believe they are closer to competing than we may think. If they trade Hayes but not Kreider it tells me they believe they have a replacement for Hayes and are maybe 2 years out. If they trade both Hayes and Kreider, buckle up buttercup because this is going to be one terrifying ride.

Half the league would have taken DeBrincat in a do-over. Probably the same for Girard. A lot of teams miss--every year there are a handful of guys who should have gone round one that didn't. But that doesn't make other guys who did go in the first unworthy.

Having watched both Katchouk and Howden a lot in junior (especially Katchouk), I would take Howden every day of the week. I definitely think Howden would be matching Katchouk's AHL production if he was down there where he should be. Raddysh, probably a toss up for me. I have zero interest in Carter Hart, and certainly nowhere near round one. Kyrou I would have taken over Howden.

Anyway, I know why Howden is up. He's here because we're ****. The other guys aren't up because for many of them, their teams are not ****! Howden should be in the AHL, I have said this repeatedly. It just seems that people are now panning him, calling him unworthy of a first round pick, because we've put him in a position to fail. If we weren't ****, he'd be in the AHL like the others and he'd probably be doing really well and everyone would still be excited about him.

Howden has been a big time prospect since he entered the WHL years ago. He had an accomplished junior career. He was good for Team Canada. Literally everyone had him pegged as a first round pick, because of his tangible and intangible skills. He absolutely deserved to be drafted in round one. No doubt about it. That he's being asked to do too much shouldn't diminish his stock, at least relative to his peers who haven't been put in the same position to fail. You want to cherry pick guys from round two or later that should have gone in front of him, fine, but that's lots of players in every round one.

Spot on, 2k2. This is why I (and so many others) had concerns that our fanbase couldn't handle a rebuild. It is one of many things that sounds good in theory, but the process we have to endure is absolutely dreadful.

 

[LORDE]

not going to argue the importance of a goalie but I couldn't possibly disagree more that hank cripples our cap. we have spent plenty of $$ on skaters they have just been crappy. when a contender is paying rick nash $7.8 mil to be a jan erixon clone and staal/girardi $10 mil the issue wasn't that hank made a couple mil more than other goalies

Cap percentage is almost identical to Hank's prior contract. We've been through this.

 

[Edge]

When it comes to giving opinions on prospects and the draft, there are two things that are easy and make me roll my eyes:

• It's very easy to look like a scouting genius multiple years after a draft and with the ability to gauge prospects after they're already been selected.

• It's also very easy to be the guy who predicts most picks/prospects will either fail or not quite hit their ceiling.

 

[Off Sides]

I don't even mind the process, or better said what my version of the process would be.

I'm not enthralled with their version of the process so far. Nothing to do with who they drafted, who they missed on, what valuations they made, but I'm sensing they are either trying to put good optics on the rebuild, or trying to rush it by using the NHL as their developmental league.

It's sort of like two opposing forces, they are trying to be competitive at the NHL level while also developing, okay I get that to a point, but when the tide turns in my opinion it's time to go all in on development. If that means just playing every prospect they have at the NHL level while benching more vets and taking their lumps, or putting all the youngest prospects down and allowing the older prospects and vets to take their lumps, I think it would behoove them to make that distinction right about now.

 

[Machinehead]

I was considering bumping the Howden thread to post something similar. The only player who's been arguably worse over the past 20 games is Ryan Strome who has managed to post an unfathomable 22.97 HDCF% over that span - by far the worst in the league (Howden is 16th worst with 37.11 in the same sample).

Wouldn't have guessed Strome is that bad by the eye test.

 

[Gardner McKay]

When it comes to giving opinions on prospects and the draft, there are two things that are easy and make me roll my eyes:

• It's very easy to look like a scouting genius multiple years after a draft and with the ability to gauge prospects after they're already been selected.

• It's also very easy to be the guy who predicts most picks/prospects will either fail or not quite hit their ceiling.

I assume this is in reference to my post?

When you're talking about a 4th overall and a 2nd overall, 1-2 years removed from their draft, I don't think that is easy.

 

[Edge]

I assume this is in reference to my post?

When you're talking about a 4th overall and a 2nd overall, 1-2 years removed from their draft, I don't think that is easy.

No, not at all. I actually didn't read your post.

I was more or less kind of piggy-backing on NYR2k2's comment.

 

[SA16]

Honestly Howden shouldn't have even made the team in the first place. He was completely invisible in the preseason and looking at his numbers now they were awful as well (1 goal on 1 shot in 3 games with 21 shot attempts for to 44 against). He needs time in the AHL player against lesser competition. I don't think it's the same for Chytil because he shows far more flashes of skill with the puck and he already put in 46 successful AHL games last year.

 

[Lion Hound]

Sucks watching the club stink it up, but going into the season i do believe everyone expected it. I was thinking actually middle of the road type of a team but they are fading fast.

The Zucc situation is tough to watch unfold here. Arguably the most popular player in the past decade. Now, he's turning into the whipping boy. Lot's of posters here and fans are all over him. "He's disengaged"..."His head is up his arse" "Get him out" etc. I don't think it’s that easy. He's a rental. A handful of potential suitors don't even know if they are buyers or sellers at this point. I think GMJG has to play the hand the right way here and will likely wait it out until the deadline and move him then. Of course if a club wants him bad enough to help the club get him there then that's another story. For the interim, this is on the athlete himself. He has to get his head out of his own arse. Quinn and staff need to coach him through it. In addition the club doesn't really have a true captain. If you are wearing the C, you need to be all over situations like this. What would Mark Messier do if he had a player who was disengaged? I do think it is imperative that for the long term the player needs to be moved. He did great here. He was the Cinderella story that everyone loves. Now it’s run its course. Move him, but don't be too hasty. Get the right return. Good GM's find ways to make deals happen. Sometimes the right way is waiting till the deadline.

Value right now might be a B prospect and a 2nd round pick. Value at deadline if player is back from his mental vacation is a 2019 1st round pick and a B prospect. Wait it out.


The Hayes situation is a little different. The player isn't disengaged. While he is out of the lineup for the now, Hayes has been playing the best hockey of his career. Of course that just happened to come on a contract year. I’m sure the phones have rang already on him and I think it’s likely that discussions are already underway with some GM’s. Gorton has a lot to work with here. He maximized Rick Nash’s return. I’d expect nothing less for the younger Kevin Hayes. Plus, teams are always looking for C’s. Big ones who produce, and play two way games have tremendous value. With that said, he’s still quite the young lad. There’s the argument to be made for keeping him here. Let’s face it, none of the prospects at this point are showing they can slide up into the 2nd line and handle the responsibility. A lot can change in a year. Chytil, Howden, maybe even Lias? All we know for the now is they aren’t there yet. The price tag seems to be rumored around $7,000,000 for a fresh new Kevin Hayes contract. While I like what #13 has accomplished here, if he’s resigned, that type of a move likely brings this club from the depths of the league back to mediocrity. I hope the Rangers see that. I think everyone else certainly does. I don’t want to see Mediocrity anymore. If the player wants to stay badly enough, get him back here for $6 mil. That’s a tremendous payday, and while it would probably leave some money on the table can you really put a price tag on peace of mind?

Value at deadline should be 2019 1st round selection, a roster player (cap) and a B prospect with potential to be an A.


The Big 3 situation is just a mess. Staal, Shatty, & Smith. This is the test for Gorton. Easy way out is a buyout, which many here support. I hate the idea. Club is still factoring Girardi to the tune of $3.6 this year, and $3.6 next year. A Smith or Staal buyout puts them further into the hole limited them any future moves. I would assume that Staal is pretty much untradeable. Shatty I think would have some interest being he’s RD and has the PP resume. Smith has the smaller price tag, and can likely be moved maybe by sending out someone with him in a package deal. At a minimum, one of these players has to go. For the now…right now there are younger players that can slide into each of their spots. Gorton has to make some moves here. Can’t keep blaming Sather for these contracts. Gorton was on Shatty and Smith. This is the deal IMO that should be done prior to the deadline. And if they can’t get-r-done, they should reflect long and hard and what the next contract will look like for any impending UFA’s they wish to keep around.

The deadline is Feb 25th. That is 47 days away. For the Rangers that's another 20 games.

 

[Gardner McKay]

No, not at all. I actually didn't read your post.

I was more or less kind of piggy-backing on NYR2k2's comment.

Gotcha. It was hard to tell since you didn't quote anyone specifically and I had just made a post saying how I don't like Puljujarvi and Patrick lol.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

The problem with the rookies on this team is that the team is lean on the wings and lean on top end D. They need too much out of them and they arent ready for it. Howden seems to be handling it best but I attribute that to going through the CHL and its schedule, its ice size and travel. Chytil and Anderson had a lot of catching up to do before they learned how to be an NHL player. Ideally Pionk is on our 3rd pair d, but this team being so lean he has been used way too much in all situations. I was hoping a healthy Shattenkirk, a rejuvenated Smith and a Skjei under contract would take care of the top 6 maybe with DeAngelo or Staal. None of that has happened. Up front I think the plan was that Spooner would have taken one of those wing spots along with Namestnicov, Kreider and Zuccarello and insulate the younger players, take the pressure off them and let them learn on the fly while they play with vets like Fast and Vesey. Well, Spooner is gone,Zuccarello is crushed from being shopped, and Namestnicov has been good but not producing. The team isnt good, the only guys that can produce one their own are Kreider and Zibanajad. Hayes has had a good year but when he got separated from kreider it slowed again. Gorton has his work cut out for him, he needs picks and players much like he did last year. Hopefully he does well.

 

[Edge]

I do have some concerns that now that we've entered the really down time of the season, people are going to the opposite end of the spectrum on the comments.

I don't think there was any problem with Howden, Chytil or others making the team.

I think the problem is the expectation that they were going to light the world on fire, or that they wouldn't have stretches where they were pretty invisible.

But invisible, in and of itself, isn't necessarily a bad thing for rookies.

Over the years (decades), I've seen a lot kids play in the NHL who legit couldn't hang. I'm not really getting that vibe from a lot of our kids. I'm getting the vibe that they are 19 and 20 years old, playing against the best collection of hockey players in the world.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

When it comes to giving opinions on prospects and the draft, there are two things that are easy and make me roll my eyes:

• It's very easy to look like a scouting genius multiple years after a draft and with the ability to gauge prospects after they're already been selected.

• It's also very easy to be the guy who predicts most picks/prospects will either fail or not quite hit their ceiling.

Dont forget being the guy who goes against the grain with no rhyme or reason just so he can say I told you so in a few years in case said prediction comes true.

 

[Machinehead]

I do have some concerns that now that we've entered the really down time of the season, people are going to the opposite end of the spectrum on the comments.

I don't think there was any problem with Howden, Chytil or others making the team.

I think the problem is the expectation that they were going to light the world on fire, or that they wouldn't have stretches where they were pretty invisible.

But invisible, in and of itself, isn't necessarily a bad thing for rookies.

Over the years (decades), I've seen a lot kids play in the NHL who legit couldn't hang. I'm not really getting that vibe from a lot of our kids. I'm getting the vibe that they are 19 and 20 years old, playing against the best collection of hockey players in the world.

And Cody McLeod