Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XV

[egelband]

Counter proposal: Minnesota is at the bottom of the standings. Skjei with all his warts is a gift to the Wild, locked down at his cap hit. Brodin wouldn't be a bad add, but I don't think what he brings (plus Donato) is enough of a return for Skeji. We can do better. Hajek/Lindgren/Rykov will struggle next season, but so would Brodin/Hajek/Lindgren. Trouba will shore up the first pair, hopefully earn that salary.

What I would be interested in is Koivu, a pending UFA still doing alright. I don't see Minnesota as very motivated in retaining him. If we traded Skjei for Koivu, it would be basically salary neutral this year. Koivu is still a good middle-six C, would be a great mentor to Kakko. He gives us good insurance while Zibanejad is injured. His contract expires and perhaps he'd be interested in re-signing at a team-friendly cap hit to finish his career in NYC and mentor one of the future Finnish stars in the NHL, maybe staying on as a scout or in player development afterwards. What do we get for giving them Skjei for Koivu? Donato at 50% and a swap of their 2020 2nd for Dallas's 2020 3rd. I'll throw in Nieves or Letteri if they need a F body.

Interesting idea. But I think Skjei is too high a cost. He has value around the league. And I think that if they can just get him to play within himself - focus on defense and avoid the penalty box - he would be excellent. I’d wait to see if Quinn can get through to him. I think he has only recently appeared on Quinn’s radar as a problem to address.

 

[Avery16]

Minnesota is a great place to play. He’s been there 15 years. His number will be the first number that the Wild will ever retire and this is probably his last year. He is beloved in Minnesota. You tell me why he would want to walk away from all of that and play out half his last season in the league with a rebuilding team.

If he goes anywhere (doubtful) it will be to a prime Cup contender.

Sure, Minneapolis is a nice city, and a great place to play hockey. I don't know that Koivu wants to retire there. My larger point was that there are better returns to be had for Skjei than an equivalent with less term and a question mark like Donato.

 

[Ola]

Great news on Lias, definitely the right move.

And it becomes more exciting to follow HFD again.

 

[Barnaby]

No, I'm saying that for the future of this team it is better for us to be in the lottery this year. We have a lot of holes still to fill esp in the forward position. This team even if it makes the playoffs won't get out of the first round. So why hope that we do, lose out on a player that can potentially make a serious difference for us, make a dumb mistake by keeping krieder, and possibly try to become buyers at the deadline? Rebuilding takes time. Yes we accelerated that by what we have done the past few seasons but we still are a year or two away from being a legit cup contender as long as we make smart moves.

Im not going to actively root for them to lose, but a top 5 pick would serve them best. Add to that a pick in the 20s that they use to draft a kid or trade for a younger established player in the offseason and I think you put the cherry on top of this rebuild. At that point I think the team turns the corner.

 

[Ola]

On Geo, to be honest, I suspect that there will be zero reason to not move him.

1. I like him and think he has been really steady for us. I think he is more consistent than Hank at this point. But, Geo has played off his 3 year ELC. He will share duties with Hank this season. A goalie that plays that much get paid fairly well. I think Geo could be a keeper if Gorton could lock him up long-term on a good deal. But when has Gorton ever been able to do that?

Gorton will most likely bridge Geo if we keep him. Say 2 years at 3.5-4m per. After that he is a UFA and if he plays well, are in for 6-7m per year.

2. Even if Geo is solid, I am not exactly getting Hasek II wibes from him.

3. Given the above cap-hit, that we will have to start paying him when we as a team should start to be ready to contend, and expected performance I just don't really see a good performance/cap-hit ratio for Geo. And in this league right now with the Cap, cap-hit is as hard currency as you can find. Everyone can always improve their team if they had more cap-space. The key to build a contender is to have a high performance/cap-hit quotient.

4. But if we deal Geo and keep Hank, we will have to find another goalie after next season when Hank is done? From my POV, is that a big deal? Give Benny an open goalie spot and we will find someone for free that we turn into a solid NHLer and get a 2nd round for when we trade them.

5. But wouldn't it be great if we could deal Hank and get a bunch of young assets in return / buy skinny jeans out for **** sake!!! I would be shocked if there were any takers for Hank. Like is he a player that gives a contender a big boost? I doubt he is seen like that around the league. There are really few contenders to start with, and most are set in goal. I think he could get the Marty deal if he was a UFA, someone would give him a 1 year deal and 2m per. If we are to move him now -- the cost will be a 1st round pick, in all likelihood. And his buy-out is horrible. Certainly don't see the value in keeping Geo around justifing that much dead cap space.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

No, I'm saying that for the future of this team it is better for us to be in the lottery this year. We have a lot of holes still to fill esp in the forward position. This team even if it makes the playoffs won't get out of the first round. So why hope that we do, lose out on a player that can potentially make a serious difference for us, make a dumb mistake by keeping krieder, and possibly try to become buyers at the deadline? Rebuilding takes time. Yes we accelerated that by what we have done the past few seasons but we still are a year or two away from being a legit cup contender as long as we make smart moves.

"Should be a lottery team this year" and "a year or two away from a legitimate cup contender" is a really tough circle to square, yet somehow feels like a normal view around here.

 

[Mikos87]

They are better coached

They're coached by guys who understand how the room should work, and preaches self-accountability. The difference between their current staff, and removing Mike Yeo is night and day. They roll 4 NHL lines, and all 3 pairs, and have guys who know their roles and play them effectively.

Binnington is also a huge part of the equation that changed things for the Blues. But the roster moves (or better decision making) helped drive the change for St. Louis.

 

[Mikos87]

Henrik struggles on the PK when pucks move side to side. This has been going on for the last 3 years. A lot of it is age, some of it is structure. Hank used to be one of the best goalies on the PK here, but that's changed over the last 3 years.

It's a big part of why the Rangers have been losing. I'm not saying it's solely Hank... but the last three years... this has been a trend. Geo has performed better in short-handed situations, but the Rangers are one of the worst teams in that area.

I posted about this over the summer, and kept highlighting the need for a competent set of 4th line players who can PK. This is the reason why.

 

[BBKers]

B. Skjei, Lias and ? for W Nylander. Toronto is in full meltdown. Use the opportunity

 

[ETTER DE]

"Should be a lottery team this year" and "a year or two away from a legitimate cup contender" is a really tough circle to square, yet somehow feels like a normal view around here.

Chicago Blackhawks: 2007/2008 Did not make the playoffs - 2009/2010 Won Stanley Cup

 

[Mikos87]

B. Skjei, Lias and ? for W Nylander. Toronto is in full meltdown. Use the opportunity

They'll make a coaching change before a big roster move imo. Same thing that happened to AV is happening to Babcock.

TOR runs the man on man defense, and it's the same look as the last couple of years. Teams exposed it in the 2nd half of last year, and Babs did not adapt. Trend continues.

 

[ETTER DE]

B. Skjei, Lias and ? for W Nylander. Toronto is in full meltdown. Use the opportunity

Nylander has this year been one of the best players for Toronto. With Reilly, Muzzin and Dermott on LD, why would they trade one of their best players for another LD? And with Matthews, Tavares and Kerfoot as centers, the best Lias could hope for was on the 4th line. And we have seen how this has worked so far.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

We’re running a D that has an average age of 23 with Ruff running shit.

We shouldn’t be surprised that they’re struggling. It’s going to be a season of peaks and valleys, with more valleys than peaks.

we’ll be getting another high pick and hopefully a new coach running the D next year. If we aren’t making pretty significant strides towards the playoffs by then, Ruff isn’t the only one who should be getting the boot.

 

[Dr. Ogrodnick]

Great news on Lias, definitely the right move.

And it becomes more exciting to follow HFD again.

So exciting that our 7th overall pick is a bust at this point and best case scenario finds a way to eventually be a 4th line center in the NHL somewhere. Yay.

 

[Gardner McKay]

Why would any player in Minnesota block a trade to NYC?

Because NYC isn't the end all be all. There are so many great places aside from NYC. As much as I love the Rangers, if I was a player it would be one of my last destinations to go to.

So exciting that our 7th overall pick is a bust at this point and best case scenario finds a way to eventually be a 4th line center in the NHL somewhere. Yay.

Calling a 20 year old kid a bust absolutely absurd.

 

[Dr. Ogrodnick]

Im not going to actively root for them to lose, but a top 5 pick would serve them best. Add to that a pick in the 20s that they use to draft a kid or trade for a younger established player in the offseason and I think you put the cherry on top of this rebuild. At that point I think the team turns the corner.

Absolute best case scenario is the team finds some consistency, challenges for a playoff spot, misses, but wins the lottery for a top 3 pick.

 

[Dr. Ogrodnick]

Because NYC isn't the end all be all. There are so many great places aside from NYC. As much as I love the Rangers, if I was a player it would be one of my last destinations to go to.



Calling a 20 year old kid a bust absolutely absurd.

Not for a 7th overall pick who has shown he will never be a top 6 center. Maybe he will be a functional NHL player someday, but as far as where he was taken in the draft he's a bust.

 

[TheBloodyNine]

One game now as a thermometer for him isn't rushing. I'm very much of a fan of the Torts model which is if there's room for a prospect to come up, let them play a game, see where they're at, let them assess and go back down to work on areas they need to.

What would be the point of that? He's playing very well in the AHL right now, they can see where he's at down there. They can assess him just fine in the NHL at the end of the season, it's not going to make a difference.

 

[TheBloodyNine]

Chicago Blackhawks: 2007/2008 Did not make the playoffs - 2009/2010 Won Stanley Cup

That was with a generational player (Kane), and former 3rd overall number 1 center (at the time) (Toews), a future Hall of Famer who won the Norris that year (Keith), and probably the second best coach of all time (Quenville). We don't have any of those things yet.

 

[Gardner McKay]

Not for a 7th overall pick who has shown he will never be a top 6 center. Maybe he will be a functional NHL player someday, but as far as where he was taken in the draft he's a bust.

While that outcome is certainly possible, It is impossible to say at this point. It really is. The whole "maybe he will be a functional player" thing is ridiculous. He just turned 21. He has been yo-yo'd around. He has had terrible linemates.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

That was with a generational player (Kane), and former 3rd overall number 1 center (at the time) (Toews), a future Hall of Famer who won the Norris that year (Keith), and probably the second best coach of all time (Quenville). We don't have any of those things yet.

That Chicago team was insanely deep.
We’ve got a ways to go before we can start making that comparison. I think there is a better chance for a pretty quick turnaround, but we aren’t there yet.

 

[ETTER DE]

They'll make a coaching change before a big roster move imo. Same thing that happened to AV is happening to Babcock.

TOR runs the man on man defense, and it's the same look as the last couple of years. Teams exposed it in the 2nd half of last year, and Babs did not adapt. Trend continues.

Interesting. I must admit I know very little about zonal defense in hockey. Tried to find something on the web, but mostly is was about the starting positions in the system. How does this system work when the first defender fail? Is it the nearest guy who then goes to work? Reason I ask is that in the early nineties Norway got a new coach for the national soccer team. With a strict zonal defense he took the team from nowhere to 2nd in the FIFA World ranking. When he described how it worked I found it was much more complex than players defending their zone. Very very very simplified the nearest defender would defend against the player who had the ball and rest would position themselves according to that. So the next guy could try if the first defender failed.

 

[Ola]

Henrik struggles on the PK when pucks move side to side. This has been going on for the last 3 years. A lot of it is age, some of it is structure. Hank used to be one of the best goalies on the PK here, but that's changed over the last 3 years.

It's a big part of why the Rangers have been losing. I'm not saying it's solely Hank... but the last three years... this has been a trend. Geo has performed better in short-handed situations, but the Rangers are one of the worst teams in that area.

I posted about this over the summer, and kept highlighting the need for a competent set of 4th line players who can PK. This is the reason why.

I definitely agree that it’s not all on Hank, BUT for a young and inexperienced team like ours it’s tremendously hard to get into the POs unless our goalie on a nightly basis is our best player.

Hank isn’t that. He isn’t the best goalie on the ice even 50% of the time.

And the fact that Geo has been steadier than Hank doesn’t say much to me either.

I doubt we will make the POs before we get a goalie that legitimately is talked about as a top 5-10 in the league. And to be honest, I doubt that will be Shestyorkin either, who certainly is on the small side. But who knows.

With that said, there are many high quality goalies out there in terms of raw ability. But the stability isn’t there, the experience. If we can get a hold of someone like that — with Benny, I think we could accomplish a lot.

 

[Ola]

So exciting that our 7th overall pick is a bust at this point and best case scenario finds a way to eventually be a 4th line center in the NHL somewhere. Yay.

Why is 4th line C best case scenario for Lias?

 

[TheBloodyNine]

That Chicago team was insanely deep.
We’ve got a ways to go before we can start making that comparison. I think there is a better chance for a pretty quick turnaround, but we aren’t there yet.

If we can get a Byfield or Lafrienierre out of this draft we will be squarely on that road, but we'll obviously still not a lot more.