Speculation: Roster Building Thread : Part XV (Light em up!)

[NYR Viper]

It's the latest cope by this board.

When he is making $5M next season he will go back to being seen for what he is, just like B Smith.

Smith was a pretty consistent 3rd pairing guy in Detroit. Borgen played top-4 in Seattle for a couple of seasons. It was this year where he took a turn and became a 3rd pairing guy and seemed like a square peg in a round hole with a new coach.

I'm not saying him sign him at all costs, but if he's making less than Smith was back then, then that's a good number very likely.

 

[RangerBoy]

Who would you prioritize trading off the current Rangers roster?​

Almost all of our respondents can read and watch hockey, so they’ve zeroed in on the two Rangers veterans most of us could identify as the team’s top priorities to move in Chris Kreider and Mika Zibanejad. Kreider is just about to return from an injured-reserve stint and Zibanejad has looked more like his old self the past two weeks, but those two are the focus.

Executive No. 1: “It’s Kreider or Zibanejad, and I’d probably do Kreider first. That wing spot is where they have some kids coming. They’ve got (Will) Cuylle, who could do with more minutes. They’ve got (Brennan) Othmann, who you’d want to see get a chance. (Gabe) Perreault coming soon.”

Executive No. 3: “I think given his age, what he’s been through this season with his name being out there, Kreider should go. Having said that, at his age and with his injury situation, I’m not sure what a return would look like for him. Likely not as high as you might hope for if you’re them.”

Agent 1: “I’d say probably (Zibanejad). He’s the one guy who I would think has been underachieving or has potentially the most talent that maybe someone sees and feels that a change of scenery might be good for him. I think a big return, a dangerous one, is K’Andre (Miller). Honestly, I don’t think he’s as smart (or) mean or has the upside or (is) driven, maybe, as what they thought. I think that’s a dangerous one because he’s got so much upside, but I don’t know if he’ll ever hit it. I think they’re always going to be a little unhappy as big and raw as he is. I don’t think he’ll ever be that deep playoff, No. 1 defenseman that they want him to be, or No. 2 defenseman. I think he could bring back a nice return.”

Coach No. 2: “You wonder about Zibanejad: Is it a player thing, a coach thing, where they don’t see eye to eye? Is it bigger than that? It’s got to be something. There’s also a lot of miles on him and Kreider.”

Love Chris. Home grown Rangers. Time to go. Executive #1 reads this forum.

I go back and forth on Miller. Love his size and strength. He has so much ability. I would reunite Miller and Schneider together. They become the Rangers shutdown pair on D.

Do the Rangers need a full rebuild?​

Judging by our answers here, the real question should be: Does any team need a full rebuild these days? It was a resounding “no” across the board on the Rangers, who have Shesterkin in net, Adam Fox on the top defense pair and still plenty of skill up front. No need to tear it all down even if this season continues south.

Coach No. 1: “They’ve got some good young players, they have a goalie. Maybe a retool, but no way you need to rebuild that. They’ve got a good team that lost their confidence because of what went on around them. They didn’t all turn into bad players overnight.”

Executive No. 2: “First, I’m not sure how you do a full rebuild with so many no-trade clauses and so much term left on guys’ deals. It’s difficult to do and way more difficult to build back up. When you’ve got Igor Shesterkin for eight more years, you’re not doing a rebuild.”

Executive No. 4: “There are organizations out there who have been on a full rebuild for a long, long time, and they’ve never finished the build. Anybody can tear down a team. That’s not hard. What’s hard is to build, and building a roster is an art form. You look at (some teams) — you don’t just tear it down and rebuild it. You have to get the right pieces. You have to be fortunate, too.”

Agent No. 2: “I’d say no. But I say that because rebuilds are impossible. I just look at where their money is. It’s just too hard. What’s a rebuild? Is it the core or is it all the periphery?”

I think it's called a refresh. Mika has the bad deal because he was playing like garbage until the last week or so. If Mika continues to get his game back, the $8.5M isn't a bad number. He stays and plays with Lafreniere. The other players with a clauses like Trocheck have very good value. Panarin has one season remaining. Igor isn't going anywhere. We aren't taking it down completely. You could get a really good return for Fox before his NMC kicks in.

NHL execs, coaches and agents on fixing the Rangers: Fire Drury? Or Laviolette? Trades? Rebuild? Stay the course?

The Athletic asked nine NHL insiders what they've seen from the Rangers during this season and what they think of them going forward.

www.nytimes.com

 

[leetch99]

I agree. What do they call that.. a false dilemma? It's not like your trading Borgen and then do nothing. It's not The Return VS Borgen... you'd go out and sign a bottom pairing to fill the role, you have Mancini in the mix as well. That kid has had some ups and downs when he was here. How much of the bad is because of how disjointed this roster was? But he's had some real bright spots showing what he's capable of. I'm plenty comfortable with Fox/Schneider/Mancini next year with the possibility of signing a bottom pairing guy to hedge against Mancini faltering. But I do not want to block the kid.

I don't see the allure of keeping Borgen. Are people forgetting that we had both Borgen and Vaakanainen and the team was still in shambles and the D was still playing like shit. Them included. People were ready to launch Borgen and Vaak into the sun not too many games ago. Short memories. Bringing in these 2 guys did not transform the defense. The team is simply playing better as a whole and we've won a few games. But I'd hardly change my outlook because of it. Borgen should still be a useful trade chip. Just my opinion

They needed a few games to become familiar with a new team....you have to give them at least a bit of grace . Fox-Borgen-Mancini would be pretty nice on the right side D . Move Schneider over and resign Miller if he is back from his deep brain sleep and maybe Vak on the cheap and if Lindgren will sign for cheap a 2 year deal...really cheap then you ink him or find a spare in the system or elsewhere .

That is a D that provides skill and a good degree of physicality out there and by retaining Lindgren does not change the room/friendship dynamics with Fox /Lindgren.

However....you keep an open eye to better the team top 6 D at every opportunity and if you need to trade a Kreider and or a first off...so be it . Smith likely sticks around and heads to UFA . He keeps the spot warm for Perreault unless Kaliyev proves out. I doubt we see many changes between now and season end but he will find a way hopefully to use the Cap to our advantage .

 

[UnparalledPark]

I read that information a few weeks ago. Columbus is playing really well. They have new management with Don Waddell. New coach in Dean Evason. They always had so much young talent. Werenski is playing the best hockey of his career. Norris. The two Russian kids are good. Johnson. Sillinger. Monahan has been terrific for them. He is hurt now. They can score goals. Their goaltending is inconsistent. I was watching their last game against the Blues. I thought it would be shootout. 2-1 win. Jet Greaves lost his shutout in the final seconds. I play hockey DFS on DraftKings and I thought that game would be shootout. I stacked players from both teams and it was a 2-1 game. They had played a game a few weeks ago and it was 6-4 Columbus which was up big and they had to hold on.

Agree. With Waddell there, they could be a playoff contender in the near future. I just think they’re inexperience will leave them just short this year.

 

[SA16]

Interesting option available as a 3RD. Could help move the puck up the ice and on the PP2. If he's willing to play the role of 7D and mix in the lineup it would also let them move Jones and still have a capable extra.

 

[McRanger92]

Love Chris. Home grown Rangers. Time to go. Executive #1 reads this forum.

I go back and forth on Miller. Love his size and strength. He has so much ability. I would reunite Miller and Schneider together. They become the Rangers shutdown pair on D.


I think it's called a refresh. Mika has the bad deal because he was playing like garbage until the last week or so. If Mika continues to get his game back, the $8.5M isn't a bad number. He stays and plays with Lafreniere. The other players with a clauses like Trocheck have very good value. Panarin has one season remaining. Igor isn't going anywhere. We aren't taking it down completely. You could get a really good return for Fox before his NMC kicks in.

NHL execs, coaches and agents on fixing the Rangers: Fire Drury? Or Laviolette? Trades? Rebuild? Stay the course?

The Athletic asked nine NHL insiders what they've seen from the Rangers during this season and what they think of them going forward.

www.nytimes.com

Trading Trocheck and Fox isnt a "refresh" lol. Those are just about the most "rebuild" trades the team could make. Not happening.

 

[leetch99]

No. I 100% agree with you. I obviously have no tangible proof, but I feel this is one of the biggest pet peeves I have with our boards. We get very hyperbolic. Trouba was literally public enemy #1 and people here would tell you he wasn’t even good enough to be a #8 for an NHL team. Borgen may as well just be Trouba wearing a disguise and he’s got people talking about “the BORG!” and penciling him into a top four role for next year. It’s the same damn player, except this one is new, has no expectations or negative associations and makes practically nothing.


Our defense is not good and Borgen is a 6/7 D on a good team. He’s been adequate and even good at times, but that’s what he is. Of course it’s a lot more palatable when the guy makes peanuts and has no expectations. The D in general has been better. As has the team. But it had nowhere to go but up and this is a TINY upswing. We’ve got people extending Smith and penciling Borgen into a second pairing spot for next season already. Let’s pump the breaks. Borgen is a strict 5-7 D, period. Vaakanainen is literally a 7. These are still NHL players. We just literally weren’t playing NHL hockey before. Just because we’ve started to remember how to do that does not mean the ship is righted or these guys are better than what they are. For the record, I’m fine with Borgen as a cheap third pairing guy. But he is not a savior nor the cause of our tiny turn around. Correlation =/= causation.

Borgen signing enables us not to rush Mancini up the pecking order .....IMO that is a good move leaving Borgen in the 2 pairing for the time being and if Mancini is really ready to climb....then it is good for the team .

 

[The Crypto Guy]

Interesting option available as a 3RD. Could help move the puck up the ice and on the PP2. If he's willing to play the role of 7D and mix in the lineup it would also let them move Jones and still have a capable extra.

Damn, PPG player and almost 24 minutes of ice time a game? Makes you wonder why he’s coming back, clearly SKA loved him on their team, maybe he does have some interest from an NHL team. Or it’s family personal reasons.

 

[McRanger92]

No. I 100% agree with you. I obviously have no tangible proof, but I feel this is one of the biggest pet peeves I have with our boards. We get very hyperbolic. Trouba was literally public enemy #1 and people here would tell you he wasn’t even good enough to be a #8 for an NHL team. Borgen may as well just be Trouba wearing a disguise and he’s got people talking about “the BORG!” and penciling him into a top four role for next year. It’s the same damn player, except this one is new, has no expectations or negative associations and makes practically nothing.


Our defense is not good and Borgen is a 6/7 D on a good team. He’s been adequate and even good at times, but that’s what he is. Of course it’s a lot more palatable when the guy makes peanuts and has no expectations. The D in general has been better. As has the team. But it had nowhere to go but up and this is a TINY upswing. We’ve got people extending Smith and penciling Borgen into a second pairing spot for next season already. Let’s pump the breaks. Borgen is a strict 5-7 D, period. Vaakanainen is literally a 7. These are still NHL players. We just literally weren’t playing NHL hockey before. Just because we’ve started to remember how to do that does not mean the ship is righted or these guys are better than what they are. For the record, I’m fine with Borgen as a cheap third pairing guy. But he is not a savior nor the cause of our tiny turn around. Correlation =/= causation.

Out of curiosity, what did you think of Niko Mikkola when he was here? Because he had the same role as Borgen as a Ranger; he looked good, we let him walk and now he's playing 20 minutes a night the last 2 years for the champs. for 2.5Mil a year. By what criteria is Borgen a 6 and Vaakanainen a 7? Because just about the minute they were put on the worst defensive team in the league, everything started to improve lol. Specifically their partners Miller and Schneider, who looked lost all year

And Borgen is definitely a better player than Trouba. Borgen is one of the fastest skating defenseman in the league, and doesnt put himself out of position on hits like Trouba did. And when you paid Trouba 8 million to be that, it's a no brainer to pay a guy less than half of that, especially when he's better.

It all depends on the draft pick we get offered for Borgen, and what he's asking for on his next contract, but we absolutely should be very interested in retaining him. Idk why people need a 2nd round pick to further justify the Kakko trade. Getting 2 picks and a bottom 4 defenseman extended is huge haul for a 3rd liner.

 

[NYR Viper]

Maybe he’s not a 7 on many teams, but he certainly is a 5-6 on almost every team in the league. We don’t have to agree on this list, but he’s at best a 5 on most teams in the league, and on the teams where he is a 5, it’s usually behind a loaded top 4 like Minnesota or Colorado. For example, I wouldn’t have him playing over:

Ottawa: Sanderson, Chabot, Zub, Jensen, and Kleven is better as a rookie with far better potential, so would get the minutes making Borgen 6.

Los Angeles: Gavrikov, Anderson, Edmundson, Clarke, Spencer, and Doughty is out

Seattle: Dunn, Larsson, Oleksiak, Montour, Evans is a 23 year old pacing for 40 points

Boston: McAvoy, Lindholm, Carlo, Zadorov, Lohrei

Tampa: Hedman, McDonagh, Moser, Cernak

Minnesota: Faber, Brodin, Spurgeon, Middleton and they’ve got Jiricek coming up

Colorado: Makar, Toews, Manson, Girard

Buffalo: Dahlin, Byram, Power, Samuelsson, arguably Clifton

Montreal: Hutson, Guhle, Matheson, Carrier, Savard, Xhekaj

NJ: Seigenthaler, Hamilton, Hughes, Pesce, Dillon

Washington: Chychryn, Carlson, Sandin, Roy, Ferhevary, TVR

Vegas: Pietrangelo, Theodore, Hanifin, McNabb, probably Whitecloud

Carolina: Slavin, Orlov, Burns, Gostisbhere, Walker

I could keep going but he ends up 5 or 6 on almost every team.

Realistically, there are maybe 5 teams I would have him in the 4 spot on, and almost all of those teams, like Anaheim, have 3+ guys under 23 years old who will cement themselves as better regulars than Borgen by the end of this season if not early next.

Do you really think he is more than a bottom pairing D? Would you care as much if I said 5/6 instead of 5-7? He’s not more than a 5 anywhere but on the most dreadful NHL blue line. He’s really hardly any different than Trouba except for the cap hit and all of the unresolved hatred we all have for Trouba for being so overpaid. Borgen is appropriately priced Trouba. Maybe a few hairs better, but virtually the same player, just appropriately priced and not leaned on as heavily.

Play Borgen 21-22 minutes per night, every night for 5 years and see how much better than Trouba he looks. Guy is 28 and has averaged 16:30ish per game his entire career outside of 10 games with NY. Again, I’m fine with him as a cheap bottom pairing guy. By no means do I want him playing 18-22 minutes on any team I expect to have serious hopes of contending.

I think you're arguing semantics a bit here. Borgen is a quality NHL d-man who brings things this team needs. If he is signed to the contract many are predicting him to get, ~$3.5m, that is #5 cap hit allocation. Especially as the cap increases. Whether he is playing with Miller due to playing styles or because they have chemistry isn't the point, the team needs 6 quality NHL d-men. He's playing 18:37 on average with the Rangers right now.

If you go down your list and compare the ~$3.5m that Borgen is projected to get to what many of the players above are making you will quickly realize that he won't be paid close to the stratosphere that most of those guys above are making (or will be making shortly).

The issue with Trouba was he couldn't skate anymore and was making $8m. If you were to tell me that Borgen would come in and replace the physical play of Trouba and be able to skate well while making $3.5m, I'd sign up for that all day.

Just as a point of reference, Niko Mikkola averaged over 20 minutes of ice time per game for the Panthers both last year and this year. Niko Mikkola. I realize that's not "ideal" but building a defense by committee isn't the worst idea in the world.

 

[UnSandvich]

If y'all wanted a laugh Pronman did his annual U-23 rankings. As is to be expected from Pronman, the entire list is utter trash.

Cuylle 61
Othmann 113
Perreault 126

 

[Overcast]

If y'all wanted a laugh Pronman did his annual U-23 rankings. As is to be expected from Pronman, the entire list is utter trash.

Cuylle 61
Othmann 113
Perreault 126

Having Othmann above Perreault certainly is a thought.

 

[RangerBoy]

Where is Mike from Houston? What did Brooks write?

What the Rangers should target before trade deadline, and no, it’s not a playoff run

For the first time since both Mats Zuccarello and Kevin Hayes were dealt, the Blueshirts will be sellers rather than buyers.

nypost.com

 

[LORDE]

Wow feels good to have our forum back!

Wut?

Mine still looks stupid white

 

[RangerBoy]

Trading Trocheck and Fox isnt a "refresh" lol. Those are just about the most "rebuild" trades the team could make. Not happening.

Vancouver is talking to other teams about their 2nd and 3rd best players. Are the Canucks looking to rebuild? No.

Fox and Trocheck are the Rangers two biggest trade chips.

 

[B17 Apricots]

What the f*** does this mean?

The funny thing is that he's said this before too, I think the last time he was out. Maybe his head keeps falling off and they have to sow it back on and let it set a little? That'd be my best guess

 

[RangerBoy]

If y'all wanted a laugh Pronman did his annual U-23 rankings. As is to be expected from Pronman, the entire list is utter trash.

Cuylle 61
Othmann 113
Perreault 126

I was looking for Gabe. I thought Corey forgot about him. Scroll. Scroll. #126? Edstrom has been traded a million times and he is ranked #50.

 

[UAGoalieGuy]

Wut?

Mine still looks stupid white

They are working on getting dark mode back. Getting the forum format fixed was the priority which is fixed.

 

[McRanger92]

Vancouver is talking to other teams about their 2nd and 3rd best players. Are the Canucks looking to rebuild? No.

Fox and Trocheck are the Rangers two biggest trade chips.

Are we trying to emulate Vancouver? They have their reasons for trading 1 of those 2 guys. They aren't selling.

Where is Mike from Houston? What did Brooks write?

What the Rangers should target before trade deadline, and no, it’s not a playoff run

For the first time since both Mats Zuccarello and Kevin Hayes were dealt, the Blueshirts will be sellers rather than buyers.

nypost.com

Basically said trade the rentals and be a 3rd party retention team for more picks.

 

[SA16]

I was looking for Gabe. I thought Corey forgot about him. Scroll. Scroll. #126? Edstrom has been traded a million times and he is ranked #50.

Probably because other teams are interested in Edstrom but they aren't interested in Perreault because he can't skate.

 

[kovazub94]

Love Chris. Home grown Rangers. Time to go. Executive #1 reads this forum.

I go back and forth on Miller. Love his size and strength. He has so much ability. I would reunite Miller and Schneider together. They become the Rangers shutdown pair on D.


I think it's called a refresh. Mika has the bad deal because he was playing like garbage until the last week or so. If Mika continues to get his game back, the $8.5M isn't a bad number. He stays and plays with Lafreniere. The other players with a clauses like Trocheck have very good value. Panarin has one season remaining. Igor isn't going anywhere. We aren't taking it down completely. You could get a really good return for Fox before his NMC kicks in.

NHL execs, coaches and agents on fixing the Rangers: Fire Drury? Or Laviolette? Trades? Rebuild? Stay the course?

The Athletic asked nine NHL insiders what they've seen from the Rangers during this season and what they think of them going forward.

www.nytimes.com

Folks here should heed to these messages:

1. Re. whom to move - the part about Miller from agent 1 is exactly where I find myself.
2. Re. rebuild - again the part about how fraught the full rebuild (e.g. trade everyone over 25//26) that could turn into a perpetual state impossible to break out of

 

[LOFIN]

Tony DeAngelo left SKA, here's a puck moving defenseman for us!

 

[noncents]

GP at 126 is sooo spicy i love it. Just a total kick in the dick for rangers fans. If he's really that bad at this level, we should really do a full rebuild. Move it all out and tank for the next 3-5 years.

 

[McRanger92]

GP at 126 is sooo spicy i love it. Just a total kick in the dick for rangers fans. If he's really that bad at this level, we should really do a full rebuild. Move it all out and tank for the next 3-5 years.

There's no imaginary thing that wont have our fans clamoring for a full rebuild. So weird.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

GP at 126 is sooo spicy i love it. Just a total kick in the dick for rangers fans. If he's really that bad at this level, we should really do a full rebuild. Move it all out and tank for the next 3-5 years.

Or it’s just further proof that Pronman is an asshat who has no business having a platform.