Speculation: Roster Building Thread : Part XV (Light em up!)

[TheDirtyH]

During the time period you are referencing how many players only won a single Norris and made the hof?

Usually the elite d men win multiple norris during their careers, and there is a legit argument to make that he shouldn't have won it the year he did.

And i didn't get a chance to respond to your post in the other thread about corai based on partners but I think you can also look at those numbers and objectively break them down further than you did. Fox has been away from lindgren after lindgren came back to the lineup. I would like to see those stats. He was away from lindgren at the start of the year when he was hurt and EVERY season people overrate offensive stats from the first 4-6 weeks of the season while teams are still trying to settle into their d structure. The rangers also played a cupcake schedule at the start of the season during the time period that you pumped fox's stats. No one argues that he doesn't carve up bad teams at times, it's about doing what other elite players do which is carving up good teams. There was an actual debate on this board at a point a couple years ago that fox was as good as makar and better than Quinn Hughes. Both look comical just a couple years later.

Shea Weber just got in as a first-ballot guy with no norris.

 

[bleedblue94]

saying a defenseman would have 100 points a season is the silly thing. Zubov was a great player but 100 points is lol. 93-97 was as high scoring as today and he never even came close. he played on the f***in 95-96 Penguins and was only just over a point per game. and also, never tried to argue Fox was better than Zubov. i don't really care to figure out who is better, but if Zubov got in the HOF then Fox is absolutely on track to.

Agree to disagree I guess

he hasn't fallen off though. aren't you an Insider? then you should know that he had a bad knee injury last season and probably wasn't able to do anything in the offseason. and he's still the Rangers best player.

Everyone knows he hurt his knee but his lack of aggressive training isn't isolated to just this off-season, and Igor is far and away this teams current best player even if people wish it wasnt true bc he's a goalie.

Shea Weber just got in as a first-ballot guy with no norris.

I never said election is tied to hardware. Someone else did. And weber also got in bc of his international career. People forget that.

 

[McRanger92]

We shouldn't be trading the 26 year old former Norris winner who is signed for 5 more years. We should be building around him to make his life easier.

 

[MrAlmost]

This may not be the draft to do it, or that you would want it, but it might be the only draft you can do it to get 2 top 7ish picks. Get hagens and martone. Or the LD kid and that other center, Misa? Or any combo of them. Cause the draft isn't that "strong" teams may be willing to move. Unlike 2026 which has some heavy hitters. Be bold.

 

[McRanger92]

This may not be the draft to do it, or that you would want it, but it might be the only draft you can do it to get 2 top 7ish picks. Get hagens and martone. Or the LD kid and that other center, Misa? Or any combo of them. Cause the draft isn't that "strong" teams may be willing to move. Unlike 2026 which has some heavy hitters. Be bold.

Rangers can turn things around very fast if they can parlay the unwanted vets for a couple more first round picks. I dont know much about draft prospects but I like the sound of Schaefer.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Let me put it this way. If you were a defenseman in the NHL who was among the absolute elite of the elite shut-down defensemen in the world would you put a lot of stock in your goal totals when evaluating your play?

And if you noticed it was really low (not 0 btw) would you really get hung up on that when you're pacing for over 60 points on the year without more than 1 goal?

You have this image of the player you think Fox is or is supposed to be that is not only inaccurate to who the player is and has always been, it's actually underselling what he accomplishes and what his ceiling is. Fox is not a "finesse"-heavy player, unless by finesse, you're talking about the kind of poise, deception, and intelligence that are utilized to similar effect by noted shut-down players like Nik Lidstrom. He's not a player that shies away from contact. He kills penalties, blocks shots, hits. He's a plus player on a minus team, while leading them in minutes played. He leads the team in assists. Panarin is still on the team, and Adam Fox leads the team in assists.

You're hung up on goals. Roman Josi has 7 goals and is a -20. Would you say he's having the better season?

I do not want to keep going back and forth with you about Fox because I do not want to keep being critical of one of our own players. I like Fox. I root for Fox. I find your wording to be strange. You say Fox doesn't shy away from contact. Does he initiate contact as a defensemen hitting other guys? I do care more about defense, speed, physicality and goals for my top Dman more than I do about pacing for 60 assists (which is very good). Yes Fox does have an empty net goal this season. I know Fox can play better. I have seen Fox play better. I'm sure Fox would be the first to admit he has played better in the past. I do not know why it is such a bad thing to be realistic about it.

 

[MrAlmost]

Rangers can turn things around very fast if they can parlay the unwanted vets for a couple more first round picks. I dont know much about draft prospects but I like the sound of Schaefer.

That's his name. The LD. He is good. I think the Rangers have the resources to sell fast and get at least 2 more 1st round picks. They may not be high, but it's look like ours will be high. Good. Then package the other 2 and a player. Or 1 and the player and a lower round pick and get 2 really high picks. Literally just draft a bunch of centers and d and restock quick.

Hagens should be target 1 though. I dont talk too much about acquiring high draft picks often in hear cause I like to speculate more about players, but my honest opinion on this season is get the kid playing with our best RW prospect, or any other position, in a while. Laf on their left would be mighty fine.

 

[FoxysExpensiveNYDigs]

ok I promised another bern blueprint by w'e

this is it...


Per my usual, best hope for at least 1 if not multiple cups = EXTEND the window
this means deal vets for youth, few exceptions notwithstanding.

The out of nowhere Zib meltdown has complicated things with great negative forces. Even a premium payment to remove him must be acceptably profitable to a trade partner and that is not readily visible other than gutting nyr to an intolerable degree.


1. Rs-‘nucks
Zib max 50% retained 4.25 to 4.25
for
Juulsen, Raty, Forbort, Desharnais
cap

For Rs, we are looking at 4.25 structural cap recovery. Juulsen ok bottom pair. Raty fine to add at position of need. Forbort is possible 3LD depth after selling Lindgren in separate move. Finally do VAN a solid adding the useless cooked python Desharnais.

This leaves VAN thin on bottom D depth, but that can be added easy ‘nuff, including follow up w/Rs if nec


2. NYR-LAK
Shesty 5.6+ now [ext is next season, he agrees to waive b’c Rs are a mess]
Trocheck - 5.6+
NYR 2026 1st
Jones 800k+
Vaakanainen 1.1+
ballpark cap = 13.2

for

Byfield 6.25 x 5
Helenius 800K+ elc
Clarke 800K+ elc
+ LD prospect Jakub Dvorak, elc, 870k x 3
ballpark cap = 8.5

Deal enables dumping Rittich 1m expiring, to be sold elsewhere for a 7th, or if LA prefers, Rs can take

cap dif = roughly 4.7 which is easily covered by 9.9+ cap space


Assessment:
While surrender of Byfield is a major concession, Kings win this deal, but it is still a fit for Rs. Due to surplus depth, this pivot of the future is getting time at W, I am to understand. Trocheck assume he waives b’c the band is being broken up and LA is a good landing spot w/an emerging team, is face off win % leader. So Kopitar remains 1C this season and maybe 1-2 more, w/Tro at 2C ready to challenge, pushed by Danault at 3C, and others 4C.
But elite Shesty = best NHL G right now, Ks have serious wood to acquire, and he is locked up 8 seasons after this. THAT justifies this deal. Also 2025 Rs pick may/may not be lottery, and ditto 2026 pick for presumably improved Rs club, but it is still a 1st. Vaak = good stopgap for now, and Jones is very good skater, effective puck mover. Loss of quality youth is a wince, but enough youth retained while LA upgrades team from compete to contend.

Rs add quality youth w/height and mobility. Kreider for now stays w/Byfield at pivot and we’ll see at RW, w/Gabe Perreault likely there next season. Helenius betw Edstrom LW and Rempe RW can dominate and do more than just check once playing together -> chemistry kicks in. Add a quality LD prospect and RD Clarke, highly touted but just adding mins now.
Win win, too much on the plate for either team to refuse


3. NYR-OTT
Fox 9.5 + a later NYR 2nd [like 2027]
for
Pinto 3.7, Kleven elc < 1 , Grieg also < 1 per, say an estimated 1.8-ish for both =5.5
ballpark cap dif [9.5 - 5.5] = 4, which Sens have suf cap room 6.4 +; also Rs can accept expiring cap dump [Harmonic? at 1-ish] if desired.

Assessment
Fox is 1RD top end complement w/Sanderson. This slightly thins OTT pivot, but the wince can be absorbed. Pick swap is down the road, so possible.

Rs get young D + Cs


4. Sell off surplus Lindgren at half + Bogen + Vaak + Scanlin + Robertson to Avs for return of NYR 2024 2nd + a later (2029-ish) 1st.
Bogen + Vaak ballpark a 2nd ish value each, Lindy at half a 3rd-ish + 2 prospects for later worth a 2nd to Colorado now + a bigger pick long deferred

5. Smith, Carrick [back to Oil ?] for highest bidder



result for now

Kreider - Byfield - Brodz/Berard
Panarin - Pinto/Grieg - Othmann
Cuylle - Chytil/Raty -
Edstrom - Helenius -Rempe

forward depth = enough there ^ but usual suspects in the A if nec

Kleven - Schneider
KAM - Clarke
Forbort- Mancini/Juulsen
marinating: Dvorak, Fortescue, Emery

usual suspects for D depth: Harpur/Mackey/Ruhwedel
Rasmus Larsson and Hank Kempf may be close enuf for cup of coffee if available


G: Garand reinforced Quick + Domingue

You traded Vaakanainen twice. Ill admit i was scanning so maybe I missed where you re-acquired him from the Kings.

 

[RangerBoy]

We go 1-8-1 and all hell will break loose

12-4-1 to 16-17-1 to 17-25-2. 5-21-1

 

[UnSandvich]

Your post is disingenuous. During the time period you are referencing how many players only won a single Norris and made the hof? There are constant spurts that are dominated by 1 or 2 d men that lead the voting annually like the lidstroms, the Chara's, the makars.

Ohh and is pk subban in the Hall of fame? He won a Norris...

Usually the elite d men win multiple norris during their careers, and there is a legit argument to make that he shouldn't have won it the year he did.

And i didn't get a chance to respond to your post in the other thread about corai based on partners but I think you can also look at those numbers and objectively break them down further than you did. Fox has been away from lindgren after lindgren came back to the lineup. I would like to see those stats. He was away from lindgren at the start of the year when he was hurt and EVERY season people overrate offensive stats from the first 4-6 weeks of the season while teams are still trying to settle into their d structure. The rangers also played a cupcake schedule at the start of the season during the time period that you pumped fox's stats. No one argues that he doesn't carve up bad teams at times, it's about doing what other elite players do which is carving up good teams. There was an actual debate on this board at a point a couple years ago that fox was as good as makar and better than Quinn Hughes. Both look comical just a couple years later.

The time period I describe is the entire history of the award.

Players with 1 Norris
- Rob Blake HOF
- Brent Burns Ineligible (Active)
- Randy Carlyle not in HOF
- Zdeno Chara Ineligible (<5 yrs since retirement)
- Drew Doughty Ineligible (Active)
- Adam Fox Ineligble (Active)
- Mark Giordano Ineligible (<5 yrs since retirement)
- Victor Hedman Inegible (Active)
- Harry Howell HOF
- Quinn Hughes Ineligible (Active)
- Tom Johnson HOF
- Roman Josi Ineligible (Active)
- Red Kelly HOF
- Jacques Laperriere HOF
- Cale Makar Ineligible (Active)
- Scott Niedermayer HOF
- Chris Pronger HOF
- Doug Wilson HOF
- PK Subban Ineligible (<5 yrs since retirement)

So in summary, 9 of 10 players eligible for the HHOF with a single Norris are in. Carlyle was the only one who's not, and he was an end of season all star just once. A 1 hit wonder. Fox is already a 3-timer.

As for your other point, i didn't look at Corsi. I used shots and goals because numbers scare people on these boards, and xGF for those who wouldn't be frightened.

Since 10/22, Lindgren's first game back:
Together:
50.81% ShotsFor
41.18% GoalsFor
48.38% xGoalsFor

Fox without Lindgren:
61.04% SF%
70% GF%
60.87% xGF%

Lindgren without Fox:
40.98% SF%
45% GF%
48.2% xGF%

 

[LokiDog]

The best part of all of this is that we all keep going after one another to debate HOW replaceable Fox would be or HOW bad Kreider has been or HOW MUCH grace he deserves due to his history with the team and the joke is, we’re all arguing with one another over inches.

We all want the same thing. How it’s achieved is almost irrelevant. Take the players’ side, take the GM’s side, take a stance in the middle… right/wrong, we all know that the team is playing like garbage and we all want to see changes and improvements.

I have opinions obviously, but I’m beyond the point of being able to care enough to defend them or argue them, especially when we’re just arguing over inches. All I know is, the only thing that is keeping me tethered to this team is some irrational, innate loyalty because this team, to me, looks irredeemable and so devoid of true bright spots (as in, sure Gabe is a nice prospect and Cuylle has had a good year, but these aren’t like BIG bright spots, they’re consolation prizes). I’ve never ever been so disengaged from the personal on the team.

 

[bleedblue94]

We shouldn't be trading the 26 year old former Norris winner who is signed for 5 more years. We should be building around him to make his life easier.

The bold that is my entire problem with anything that has to do with this team. There are certain players that people want to make life easier for when in reality a winning organization needs those players to step up and lead the group. The rangers do not have those kind of leaders.

This may not be the draft to do it, or that you would want it, but it might be the only draft you can do it to get 2 top 7ish picks. Get hagens and martone. Or the LD kid and that other center, Misa? Or any combo of them. Cause the draft isn't that "strong" teams may be willing to move. Unlike 2026 which has some heavy hitters. Be bold.

How often do top 10 picks get traded in the draft anymore?

Also Schafer is in contention to go 1oa. You aren't getting Schafer and Hagens haha

 

[DaBadGuy7]

One year after sending the letter, we gave Panarin 11.6 mil and Trouba 8 mil. Rebuilding teams don't spend that kind of money to add players.

Those moves were certainly part of the reason we got back to the playoffs so quickly, but they are also part of the reason we are in the situation we are now. More than anything, it just demonstrates this organization's lack of patience.

One year after sending the letter, we gave Panarin 11.6 mil and Trouba 8 mil. Rebuilding teams don't spend that kind of money to add players.

Those moves were certainly part of the reason we got back to the playoffs so quickly, but they are also part of the reason we are in the situation we are now. More than anything, it just demonstrates this organization's lack of patience.

To expound on this point, this is the big issue with the Rangers as a franchise since the Cablevision took over in the mid 90s. The only way to get elite talent is to either tank or get lucky and draft a player like Kucherov. Unlike in NBA, elite players in their prime are never available. B+ talents like Nash, Gaborik, and Panarin, but as we have seen constantly, those players aren’t good enough to carry a team to a Cup. They need a Leon Rose, someone to overhaul the organization top to bottom, too many cronies within departments like player development are hindering the franchise. Until they realize, you need think forward, not behind, nothing will change.

 

[LORDE]

One year after sending the letter, we gave Panarin 11.6 mil and Trouba 8 mil. Rebuilding teams don't spend that kind of money to add players.

Those moves were certainly part of the reason we got back to the playoffs so quickly, but they are also part of the reason we are in the situation we are now. More than anything, it just demonstrates this organization's lack of patience.

Been saying this for years.

Shortcuts didn't work.

That's why we're here

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

To expound on this point, this is the big issue with the Rangers as a franchise since the Cablevision took over in the mid 90s. The only way to get elite talent is to either tank or get lucky and draft a player like Kucherov. Unlike in NBA, elite players in their prime are never available. B+ talents like Nash, Gaborik, and Panarin, but as we have seen constantly, those players aren’t good enough to carry a team to a Cup. They need a Leon Rose, someone to overhaul the organization top to bottom, too many cronies within departments like player development are hindering the franchise. Until they realize, you need think forward, not behind, nothing will change.

Panarin is on a different level than Nash or Gaborik.


He’s a truly elite player and has been his entire tenure here.

 

[DaBadGuy7]

Panarin is on a different level than Nash or Gaborik.


He’s a truly elite player and has been his entire tenure here.

He’s an elite regular season player, playoffs he hasn’t shown that. To me, an elite player is that no matter what.

 

[LORDE]

I don’t believe Gorton had anything to do with Panarin or Trouba.
I believe JD overrode the rebuild.

So one wanted to accelerate the rebuild & the other preached patience, then they were both shitcanned?

 

[bernmeister]

We shouldn't be trading the 26 year old former Norris winner who is signed for 5 more years. We should be building around him to make his life easier.

no eff this
the team comes first...

 

[bleedblue94]

The time period I describe is the entire history of the award.

Players with 1 Norris
- Rob Blake HOF
- Brent Burns Ineligible (Active)
- Randy Carlyle not in HOF
- Zdeno Chara Ineligible (<5 yrs since retirement)
- Drew Doughty Ineligible (Active)
- Adam Fox Ineligble (Active)
- Mark Giordano Ineligible (<5 yrs since retirement)
- Victor Hedman Inegible (Active)
- Harry Howell HOF
- Quinn Hughes Ineligible (Active)
- Tom Johnson HOF
- Roman Josi Ineligible (Active)
- Red Kelly HOF
- Jacques Laperriere HOF
- Cale Makar Ineligible (Active)
- Scott Niedermayer HOF
- Chris Pronger HOF
- Doug Wilson HOF
- PK Subban Ineligible (<5 yrs since retirement)

So in summary, 9 of 10 players eligible for the HHOF with a single Norris are in. Carlyle was the only one who's not, and he was an end of season all star just once. A 1 hit wonder. Fox is already a 3-timer.

As for your other point, i didn't look at Corsi. I used shots and goals because numbers scare people on these boards, and xGF for those who wouldn't be frightened.

Since 10/22, Lindgren's first game back:
Together:
50.81% ShotsFor
41.18% GoalsFor
48.38% xGoalsFor

Fox without Lindgren:
61.04% SF%
70% GF%
60.87% xGF%

Lindgren without Fox:
40.98% SF%
45% GF%
48.2% xGF%

I know the history of the award. If you also post the historical award and the history of the top 3 or so vote getters annually you see the same names pop up continuously. In foxes career his Norris vote finishes have been meh other than his 1st place and his 2nd place. Do you see him anywhere in the conversation this year? Was he in it last year? Is he this year? Kid is in his prime years and his compete game is not as good as it was. People are arguing this with me and other people that are in the locker room everyday and see these guys everyday are starting to say the same thing and question his lack of physical training and regression, so this isn't something I am just making up from nowhere.

Do you mind posting the source of the numbers you shared for fox since lindgren got back bc I have seen other numbers shared and everyone seems to have a different set. I'm wondering how much is 5v5 versus all ice time. Obviously if it includes special teams it will greatly impact the numbers. Are your numbers all 5v5?

 

[Clark Kellogg]

So one wanted to accelerate the rebuild & the other preached patience, then they were both shitcanned?

Yes. The story that was rumored in the media was they were distancing themselves from the letter that James Dolan wrote.
It got back to Dolan and he fired them both for betrayal.

 

[Paulie Walnutz]

Add the road trip to Vegas, Colorado and Utah.

How many points?

No reason for Rangers management to rattle some cages. Everyone is great.

 

[bernmeister]

You traded Vaakanainen twice. Ill admit i was scanning so maybe I missed where you re-acquired him from the Kings.

no, you were right, I inadvertently dealt him 2x
have since edited + modified post 413

 

[bleedblue94]

I don’t believe Gorton had anything to do with Panarin or Trouba.
I believe JD overrode the rebuild.

The rangers were looking for a top 4 thx for half a decade before they landed trouba. He was young and fit a timeline even in a rebuild. Look at other teams that strip it down and backfill all with kids. They often go into a spiral. At the time trouba was acquired fox wasn't a thing. People forget the perspective.

And panarin literally fell in their lap the way gaudreau did for Columbus. That's the signing that stopped the rebuild, that was the moment, but the business of msg was not going to walk away from Panarin wanting to come here.

For those that are around the sport at this level they know that business ops and hockey ops are almost always in conflict with each other no matter the team. In this case business ops was able to say that hockey ops had its rebuild time and that good business was not to "look a gift horse in the mouth."

 

[TheDirtyH]

I do not want to keep going back and forth with you about Fox because I do not want to keep being critical of one of our own players. I like Fox. I root for Fox. I find your wording to be strange. You say Fox doesn't shy away from contact. Does he initiate contact as a defensemen hitting other guys? I do care more about defense, speed, physicality and goals for my top Dman more than I do about pacing for 60 assists (which is very good). Yes Fox does have an empty net goal this season. I know Fox can play better. I have seen Fox play better. I'm sure Fox would be the first to admit he has played better in the past. I do not know why it is such a bad thing to be realistic about it.

His defense is excellent, top of the league quality. He's physical. He kills penalties, hits (yes, he does initiate lol maybe not as much as Luke Schenn but he hits), blocks shots.

He's not fast. That's not changing.

He has 1 goal. If he had 4 we'd still be well out of the playoffs and his season would be how different? Seriously.

We don't have to go back and forth. Fox is playing great, even though he only has one goal. I don't know why that's so crazy to be realistic about.

 

[bleedblue94]

Reading between the tea leaves, dumping Goody and attempting the same with Trouba, Drury must have had a side deal lined up or they were trageting a big fish in FA.

Goody made/makes his money in the playoffs. He wasnt the problem outside of needing his salary off the books. He was a high motor player, just past his prime unfortunatly.

It was guentzle