Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XI

[Off Sides]

I do not recall a single attitude-related issue from DeAngelo since becoming a Ranger and his "abuse of official" suspension was a sham he barely did anything. People make it sound like he punched the guy he just tried to get free of someone grabbing him (which yes, is covered in the rules as a suspension, but is nowhere near what people like to make it out to be).

Be that as it may, the Rangers management and coaching has to this point, unless I missed it, never put forth that they like him.

I'm not sure I have seen them offer anything super positive on DeAngelo

That differs from the town hall where they mentioned pretty much every other prospect/young player without having to be prodded.

Even in this recent Brook piece, this is what they said about Pionk.

“Pionk is going to play a lot of hockey for us,” Quinn said. “He and I have talked. I don’t want to reveal our lineup for our next game, but he’s a guy I like an awful lot, and he’s going to play a lot for us.”

If they ever said something similar about DeAngelo I must have missed it.

_____________

Digging deeper into Brooks,

According to this one soon after the traded for him

But the Rangers did their research on DeAngelo, and they sought him out as part of the trade that also brought back the No. 7 overall pick....

... “Everybody said the same thing: Young player, a lot of tools, a lot of skills, great puck-skills, sees the ice well,” Vigneault said. “And he’s got a little bit of experience.”

(nice headline by the way)
https://nypost.com/2017/09/18/rangers-new-trump-loving-bad-boy-wants-a-fresh-start/

“I think he’s a puck-moving, right-handed defenseman that can run a power play, can shoot the puck,” Gorton said of DeAngelo, who had five goals and 14 points in 39 games. “He’s a little different element than what we have.”

https://nypost.com/2017/06/23/rangers-break-up-core-with-stepan-raanta-jaw-dropper/

None of that sounds to me as if they like him, not sure why they would have sought him out to trade for him unless they were willing to let his past go. Then again maybe he has done something else they do not like since that has gone unreported.

In any case they should be playing him whether they like him or not, turning part of the Stepan trade into nothing is poor asset management in my view.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Well, it would be out of character if his name was "WeFinallyGetaGoodCoach"

I mean, I shouldn't be surprised. But when the same players have the same problems with multiple coaches, at what point (if any) does it become a player problem?

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

I mean, I shouldn't be surprised. But when the same players have the same problems with multiple coaches, at what point (if any) does it become a player problem?

No, must be Quinn.

 

[Edge]

I mean, I shouldn't be surprised. But when the same players have the same problems with multiple coaches, at what point (if any) does it become a player problem?

I dunno, Dylan McIlrath is 26 years old, hasn't played for the Rangers organization since 2016, and hasn't sniffed the NHL with two other draft lottery teams in the two years since leaving the Rangers.

Yet he still pops up from time to time in discussions.

Based on that timetable, we might be looking at around 2020 or 2021.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

I dunno, Dylan McIlrath is 26 years old, hasn't played for the Rangers organization since 2016, and hasn't sniffed the NHL with two other draft lottery teams in the two years since leaving the Rangers.

Yet he still pops up from time to time in discussions.

Based on that timetable, we might be looking at around 2020 or 2021.

Good example. It was the Ranger's organization/coaching staff that destroyed his career, apparently, and he has not been able to recover years later.

 

[silverfish]

Good example. It was the Ranger's organization/coaching staff that destroyed his career, apparently, and he has not been able to recover years later.

Well, no, it was a bunch of knee injuries. However, when he finally started playing well at the NHL level, at the minimum a suitable third-pairing guy across a decent enough sample size with Yandle, and was taken out of the lineup for a one-legged Girardi - well, I can't imagine that instilled a ton of self-confidence in McIlrath.

But, hey, we all see things differently!

And look, now we're talking about McIlrath again! Wahoo! #BringDylanHome2018

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Well, no, it was a bunch of knee injuries. However, when he finally started playing well at the NHL level, at the minimum a suitable third-pairing guy across a decent enough sample size with Yandle, and was taken out of the lineup for a one-legged Girardi - well, I can't imagine that instilled a ton of self-confidence in McIlrath.

But, hey, we all see things differently!

And look, now we're talking about McIlrath again! Wahoo! #BringDylanHome2018

It was a crap top 10 pick of a bygone era, if you REALLY want to go back.

 

[silverfish]

It was a crap top 10 pick of a bygone era, if you REALLY want to go back.

Yeah, that pick was terrible. Gordie taking 'his guy' amirite.

 

[Crease]

I don't know if this is thirty years of Ranger fanhood talking but I don't currently see substantive NHL careers for Buchnevich, Lettieri, DeAngelo, or Pionk.

 

[B17 Apricots]

The way I'm looking at it, what is the future looking like right now at RD?

Deangelo, Pionk, Lundkvist, Keane.

That's literally it, the team probably isn't winning squat. It seems absurd to me that they aren't giving them every opportunity to develop. Whether it be moving someone to their offside or running 11F/7D, with this team's lack of depth at RD, neither Pionk or Deangelo should be sitting. It really is just kinda a pain in the ass that a buyout candidate, a guy who's gonna get flipped for a 3rd and a 7th Dman are playing over 2 young guys that you could argue have played better than all of them.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

I don't know if this is thirty years of Ranger fanhood talking but I don't currently see substantive NHL careers for Buchnevich, Lettieri, DeAngelo, or Pionk.

I am obviously willing to give them more time, but lets just say that I'm not seeing anything that really excites me for the future with these players. It is pretty clear to me, however, why these players are being yanked around the lineup - and it's certainly not because the new coach has a vendetta.

 

[I Eat Crow]

I like what Quinn is doing. He's giving playing time to players that have earned it and rides the hot hands during games. What we see is only half of the story. It is quite possible that a guy like DeAngelo is dogging it in practice and isn't playing in games because of that.

 

[BringBackLibertys]

We must have too many points in the standings, bring in the solution:

 

[Off Sides]

I am obviously willing to give them more time, but lets just say that I'm not seeing anything that really excites me for the future with these players. It is pretty clear to me, however, why these players are being yanked around the lineup - and it's certainly not because the new coach has a vendetta.

I don't think it's a vendetta, I think they just do not like DeAngelo so he is going to always be behind the players they do like on the depth chart.

If that is a systematic organization thing, what does that say for future players they may not like?

Are they really willing to shrink down the possible pool of available talent based on how much they like or do not like a player, or based on whatever his reputation is? Or their perception of him, if so I'd say that is a pretty good way to do the stuff Montreal has done with players like Subban.

 

[NYR94]

We must have too many points in the standings, bring in the solution:

So Brooks was right about sending Georgiev down to get some playing time.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

We must have too many points in the standings, bring in the solution:

The Rangers don't play until Sunday. The Pack play tomorrow and Saturday. They send GG down to play.

 

[Edge]

I don't think it's a vendetta, I think they just do not like DeAngelo so he is going to always be behind the players they do like on the depth chart.

If that is a systematic organization thing, what does that say for future players they may not like?

Are they really willing to shrink down the possible pool of available talent based on how much they like or do not like a player, or based on whatever his reputation is? Or their perception of him, if so I'd say that is a pretty good way to do the stuff Montreal has done with players like Subban.

One of ADA's biggest challenge is that he's playing a position that also features Shattenkirk and Pionk. The minute Pionk emerged ahead of ADA on the depth chart for two very different coaches, was the minute it became an uphill battle for him.

That's not a vendetta, that's life.

Broadly speaking, I think there's a tendency to turn this into a personal thing. It's not that the Rangers don't "like" ADA per se, or that ADA's politics or world views are being held against him, or anything about ADA as a person.

It's simply a matter of certain players catching the Rangers' attention more.

That's going to keep happening over the next several years.

It might someday come down to the Lindgren not being able to budge Skjei, Miller and Hajek.

It might be Chytil moving to wing because the Rangers really like Cozens, Andersson and Howden down the middle.

Whatever it is, it will always happen.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

I don't think it's a vendetta, I think they just do not like DeAngelo so he is going to always be behind the players they do like on the depth chart.

If that is a systematic organization thing, what does that say for future players they may not like?

Are they really willing to shrink down the possible pool of available talent based on how much they like or do not like a player, or based on whatever his reputation is? Or their perception of him, if so I'd say that is a pretty good way to do the stuff Montreal has done with players like Subban.

A lot of people seem simply unwilling to admit there might be some underlying attitude/personality issues with players like DeAngelo and Buchnevich, despite ample evidence to the contrary. The fact you are willing to admit potential character flaws and are posing the question of how that gets weighted against a player's talent is a much more interesting and reality-based debate. Personally, I'm usually about equity across the board when it comes to getting an opportunity but, in these cases, the organization is almost forced to weigh the talent level vs. the magnitude of the attitude problem. When two players are assessed to be basically even in what they can provide the team on the ice, the guy who is not the problem will almost always get the nod. More importantly, DeAngelo could become a nice player, but he couldn't hold Subban's jock strap on the ice. Im fairly convinced the situation would be different if his talent level was that high.

 

[Off Sides]

A lot of people seem simply unwilling to admit there might be some underlying attitude/personality issues with players like DeAngelo and Buchnevich, despite ample evidence to the contrary. The fact you are willing to admit potential character flaws and are posing the question of how that gets weighted against a player's talent is a much more interesting and reality-based debate. Personally, I'm usually about equity across the board when it comes to getting an opportunity but, in these cases, the organization is almost forced to weigh the talent level vs. the magnitude of the attitude problem. When two players are assessed to be basically even in what they can provide the team on the ice, the guy who is not the problem will almost always get the nod. More importantly, DeAngelo could become a nice player, but he couldn't hold Subban's jock strap on the ice. Im fairly convinced the situation would be different if his talent level was that high.

As to your final two sentences I agree, and I'd hope you are right however if they are ever again going to be a competing team wouldn't those down the depth chart choices also be at least somewhat important, maybe be the difference in a playoff series at some point? Perhaps Lars Eller is a better example.

As to weighting, a rebuilding team giving more weight to McQuiad more so than DeAngelo? more weight to Staal who is a likely buy out candidate than giving that ice time to someone they may be able to move forward with or at least trade for something of value?

I don't know, I really wanted them to rebuild for a long time now, they way they opened this season really is making me question how they are going about it, especially when I start to include what is probably best for Chytil's development as well. It's like they are stalling(pun) some development of a certain player while trying to jam another into spots he is not ready for.






Time on ice of the RD sans Smith moving over

Shattenkirk ~107
Pionk ~102
McQuaid ~90
DeAngelo ~38

 

[nyr2k2]

So what's up with Buchnevich? Is this another thing that can be blamed on the coach? Bad communication? A bad locker room or lack of leadership? What is it now? Is he just kind of a mopey guy who doesn't really ever put the pedal to the metal on a consistent basis? Is he just lacking motivation or something? I'm not trying to slam the kid, I just don't get it. Fresh start with a new coach who communicates--that was supposed to be "the fix," or at least part of it. So why not? He could be a dynamic player if he put it together, but instead he just kind of floats around, from my vantage point.

 

[I Eat Crow]

So what's up with Buchnevich? Is this another thing that can be blamed on the coach? Bad communication? A bad locker room or lack of leadership? What is it now? Is he just kind of a mopey guy who doesn't really ever put the pedal to the metal on a consistent basis? Is he just lacking motivation or something? I'm not trying to slam the kid, I just don't get it. Fresh start with a new coach who communicates--that was supposed to be "the fix," or at least part of it. So why not? He could be a dynamic player if he put it together, but instead he just kind of floats around, from my vantage point.

I don't think any of us here really know. Reading between the lines, it seems like an effort issue. He probably loafs and floats around during practice and Quinn didn't like that.

 

[BBKers]

So what's up with Buchnevich? Is this another thing that can be blamed on the coach? Bad communication? A bad locker room or lack of leadership? What is it now? Is he just kind of a mopey guy who doesn't really ever put the pedal to the metal on a consistent basis? Is he just lacking motivation or something? I'm not trying to slam the kid, I just don't get it. Fresh start with a new coach who communicates--that was supposed to be "the fix," or at least part of it. So why not? He could be a dynamic player if he put it together, but instead he just kind of floats around, from my vantage point.

He is a bit cerebral. He was by lengths or best fwd in camp. I am sure he gets back into the groove soon enough

 

[nyr2k2]

He is a bit cerebral. He was by lengths or best fwd in camp. I am sure he gets back into the groove soon enough

I mean, I hope. We were given a bunch of reasons why he wasn't great last year, and most of those things have ostensibly changed. And yet, here we are.

 

[DanielBrassard]

So what's up with Buchnevich? Is this another thing that can be blamed on the coach? Bad communication? A bad locker room or lack of leadership? What is it now? Is he just kind of a mopey guy who doesn't really ever put the pedal to the metal on a consistent basis? Is he just lacking motivation or something? I'm not trying to slam the kid, I just don't get it. Fresh start with a new coach who communicates--that was supposed to be "the fix," or at least part of it. So why not? He could be a dynamic player if he put it together, but instead he just kind of floats around, from my vantage point.

I really don't know if he's just a guy who struggles with confidence, and when that happens he loses motivation and pouts. Seems like it to a degree but hard to say without being part of the locker room or involved in practice. But I think the biggest things holding him back are his physical abilities. He's just not a very good skater IMO and he's just lacks the strength when he does have the puck to hold onto it and make plays and doesn't have the elusiveness and agility to create time and space for himself. He's definitely got a lot of skill and good vision, but it's not elite either. He was probably too overhyped coming out of the KHL.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

So what's up with Buchnevich? Is this another thing that can be blamed on the coach? Bad communication? A bad locker room or lack of leadership? What is it now? Is he just kind of a mopey guy who doesn't really ever put the pedal to the metal on a consistent basis? Is he just lacking motivation or something? I'm not trying to slam the kid, I just don't get it. Fresh start with a new coach who communicates--that was supposed to be "the fix," or at least part of it. So why not? He could be a dynamic player if he put it together, but instead he just kind of floats around, from my vantage point.

Personally, it's very difficult for me to envision how a guy in Buchnevich's position, with his skill set, can possibly fail given the current state of the Rangers. This isn't some young kid fighting for a spot on a seasoned roster. His spot in the top 6 was basically a given until a couple of weeks ago. New coach, fresh start, rebuilding team. He has every opportunity to blossom this year. So, what the hell is the problem?

In my opinion, he seems like a guy who views his job as putting up points. But theres almost invariably more to it at the NHL level. Unless you are a generational offensive talent, you have to be willing to compete on both ends of the ice. And when the points dry up for stretches, as they tend to do for younger players, you have to find a way to make other meaningful impacts on the game. In Buchnevich's case, I don't think its a case of being incapable. I think its about being unwilling, and theres just no excuse for it.