Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XI

[Unusual Suspect]

Quinn hasn't done much to help any of our young players.

Talk about mentally destroyed.

 

[Trxjw]

For all the talk about how rebuilds don't work and citing Edmonton as an example, there's an awful lot of people complaining that we're not doing exactly what Edmonton did.

You don't stack your shitty roster with kids who are playing above their heads and you certainly don't let kids play without establishing a culture of accountability.

 

[Unusual Suspect]

I don't think ADA is sitting because the staff thinks he sucks or is a bad apple. He has had a couple decent or better games and a couple not so much, the last of which gave Claesson an opportunity after not playing at all to start the season. Claesson isn't going to provide ADA's offensive game or overall (possible) upside, but seems to me he's helped as a stabilizing force and it's not completely accidental that the D has been somewhat more effective with him in there. So, currently his contribution is being found more valuable. I'm sure the next time Claesson or anyone else not named Staal has a really weak game or two, ADA will be rotated back in to see what benefit he may have obtained from being provided some time to watch and reflect. There doesn't have to be anything sinister or stupid about him riding the pine. The team wants to win, and at present he is as much a #7 defenseman as anyone else here.

 

[I Eat Crow]

For all the talk about how rebuilds don't work and citing Edmonton as an example, there's an awful lot of people complaining that we're not doing exactly what Edmonton did.

You don't stack your ****ty roster with kids who are playing above their heads and you certainly don't let kids play without establishing a culture of accountability.

You hit the nail on the head.

If a player like Bucnhnevich or DeAngelo is negatively affected by sitting when they deserve to, and don't make changes to their practice habits or don't listen to their coaches when they tell them to work on something, I very much doubt that they should be long term pieces on this team.

This is why I didn't exactly understand the outrage when Buchnevich was scratched on Tuesday.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

In my opinion, he seems like a guy who views his job as putting up points. But theres almost invariably more to it at the NHL level. Unless you are a generational offensive talent, you have to be willing to compete on both ends of the ice. And when the points dry up for stretches, as they tend to do for younger players, you have to find a way to make other meaningful impacts on the game. In Buchnevich's case, I don't think its a case of being incapable. I think its about being unwilling, and theres just no excuse for it.

That would be fine if he put up points.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

I don't think ADA is sitting because the staff thinks he sucks or is a bad apple. He has had a couple decent or better games and a couple not so much, the last of which gave Claesson an opportunity after not playing at all to start the season. Claesson isn't going to provide ADA's offensive game or overall (possible) upside, but seems to me he's helped as a stabilizing force and it's not completely accidental that the D has been somewhat more effective with him in there. So, currently his contribution is being found more valuable. I'm sure the next time Claesson or anyone else not named Staal has a really weak game or two, ADA will be rotated back in to see what benefit he may have obtained from being provided some time to watch and reflect. There doesn't have to be anything sinister or stupid about him riding the pine. The team wants to win, and at present he is as much a #7 defenseman as anyone else here.

I think the coaching staff wants 6 of the 8 defensemen to grab spots and not let go. ADA has simply not done that.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

That would be fine if he put up points.

2 in 2 games so far.

I mean if it were all about offense or dressing your best group he'd be playing.

Him sitting has everything to do with appeasing certain veterans who the coaches don't have the balls to scratch yet.

 

[NYR Viper]

2 in 2 games so far.

I mean if it were all about offense or dressing your best group he'd be playing.

Him sitting has everything to do with appeasing certain veterans who the coaches don't have the balls to scratch yet.

To be fair, if Gorton wants to continue the march toward going younger, his best play may be to try and build up the value of guys like Shattenkirk, McQuaid, Smith and Staal to see if they can entice a team to trade for them. Thus opening up $$ and a spot to play for the younger guys

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

2 in 2 games so far.

I mean if it were all about offense or dressing your best group he'd be playing.

Him sitting has everything to do with appeasing certain veterans who the coaches don't have the balls to scratch yet.

Interesting theory. Who do you have in mind? Especially at forward?

 

[True Blue]

And when the points dry up for stretches, as they tend to do for younger players, you have to find a way to make other meaningful impacts on the game. In Buchnevich's case, I don't think its a case of being incapable. I think its about being unwilling, and theres just no excuse for it.

Hence, under Quinn, he finds himself scratched or demoted.

 

[Off Sides]

Tough to grab a spot when you play in 2 games out of 7

Will be interesting to see who gets back in the playing roster first DeAngelo or McQuaid?

If points are the thing, DeAngelo is a point per game so far in his two games.

He is sitting because either and probably a combo of

The Rangers do not like him
The Rangers do not have him in their plans going forward

Everyone else that has been scratched, the Rangers have some quotes about how they like them, and or they are going to be part of the team going forward, DeAngelo I at least have not seen any quotes other than if someone asks about him and the Rangers say something to the effect of I liked his game. The other quote came form Shattenkirk when he said he was being scratched and made reference to DeAngelo had played well.

If they liked his game, then why is he not playing? If they do not want to move forward with him, why not play him anyway and try to eventually trade him? The last game he played in was 1 of the 2 Rangers wins so far.


For all that is being said about Buch, okay I get it, yet what about Spooner? Or Vesey these past two games? All the same Buch was scratched

Pavel Buchnevich dressed in place of Cody McLeod to end his one-game stay in street clothes. No. 89 started on the fourth line and moved up briefly in the third. He was not a factor in 10:30
“I was going to come back with Cody, but I decided to get Butchie back in,” Quinn, who has not yet gone with the same lineup in consecutive games, said before the match. “I’ve said before that a lot of these decisions are not 100 percent, they are 51-49 a lot. But Butchie is going to be an important part of what we’re going to do.

“Listen, he’s a really good player, he had a good practice [on Monday] and he’s got a good attitude. We need him. I want to get him back on the horse.”

Where is that type of quote about DeAngelo? I am really asking, I can not and have not read every single thing, it's possible I missed something.

 

[True Blue]

I think the coaching staff wants 6 of the 8 defensemen to grab spots and not let go. ADA has simply not done that.

I think this is right. Right now, Staal is not going to be benched. That leaves the other 7 defenseman. Whomever is performing better, plays. That's it.

That would be fine if he put up points.

Not quite. He also needs to play in the way Quinn wants. Which has been laid out and made very clear.

 

[True Blue]

Him sitting has everything to do with appeasing certain veterans who the coaches don't have the balls to scratch yet.

Talking about ADA here or Buchevich? I think the original post had to do with later and it appears that you are talking about the former. For the latter, I am not sure who he is pushing with his mediocre play.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

I think this is right. Right now, Staal is not going to be benched. That leaves the other 7 defenseman. Whomever is performing better, plays. That's it.

And ADA should have a leg up in that case. He's got much more talent and ability than McQuaid, Clausson and even Pionk.

Not quite. He also needs to play in the way Quinn wants. Which has been laid out and made very clear.[/QUOTE]

Fair. My point is you can overlook who views his job is to put up points if he actually puts up points.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Chytil needs to be sent down. He's just not strong enough to play center in the NHL, or possibly be in the NHL at all. He's 19 years old. Another year in Hartford will do him well.

Regarding DeAngelo, its shit or get off the pot time with him. He should play several games in a row so the Rangers can legitimately determine where to go with him.

 

[nyr2k2]

2 in 2 games so far.

I mean if it were all about offense or dressing your best group he'd be playing.

Him sitting has everything to do with appeasing certain veterans who the coaches don't have the balls to scratch yet.

SBOB's post ("fine if he was putting up points") was in response to BRB, who himself was responding to me, talking about Buchnevich. There's a Buch conversation and an ADA conversation taking place simultaneously that is confusing.

 

[RangerBoy]

Brooks touched on many topics today

Brooks believes the Rangers should keep Andersson and Chytil in the AHL for almost the rest of this season so they get another slide on the ELC's. Send Chytil down and keep him there.

The Blueshirts have a decision to make on Filip Chytil, and it is not whether the 19-year-old belongs in the middle or on the wing, but whether he belongs in the NHL at all.

And the decision must be reached quickly, for if No. 72 is sent to the AHL Wolf Pack before he plays 10 games, his entry-level contract would slide for the second straight year.

The contract slide is reason enough to keep Libor Hajek in Hartford for the season. That applies as well to Lias Andersson. No harm in allowing them to become major players in the minors. But Ryan Lindgren, who signed at age 20, doesn’t have a slide, so the lefty could play his way onto Broadway if merited.

No slide for Hajek

Brooks also thinks the Rangers should play DeAngelo to figure what they have in him.

https://nypost.com/2018/10/18/domino-moves-rangers-should-make-as-filip-chytil-clock-ticks/

 

[TheDirtyH]

I am still not at all sold that Quinn really is pushing for the right things.

A typical example that is a good litmus test on whether you are on the right track, if you see this its not a good indication:
*Zib carries the puck through center ice and gains the offensive blueline with speed pushing the Ds back a little bit
*Zib finds Fast to his right, then drives to the net hard to open up more space and tying up a D
*Kreider does the same thing
*Fast puts a hard low shot on the net looking for a rebound
*The shot is saved and poked into the corner by a Caps D
*Ziba and Kreider are going hard forward and one of them gets first to the puck in the corner
*They pass the puck back to a D who puts it on net again with our 3 forwards going to the net
*The puck is caught in traffic and one of our forwards takes another whack at it
*The puck is cleared out to the neutral zone, the opponent is a little tired and takes a shift and so do we meaning that we slowed them down a bit and didn't lose all momentum

Three shot attempts, it ends with you in a pretty good spot. But you could surgically remove 9/10s of the brain of any NHL D or goalie or center and they would still exactly how to handle these plays. Sure, a shot could be deflected, we could get a rebound, but it will happen 1/20 shots, not 1/10. Against a great D, maybe its 1/30...

A typical example that is a good litmus test on whether you are on the right track, if you see this it is a good indication of a team that will be very hard to contain defensively:
*Zib carries the puck through center ice and gains the offensive blueline with speed pushing the Ds back a little bit
*Zib havs seen Mario slip two defenders in the 91' cup final to score a goal and tries to do the same thing
*He barely get by one defender but is knocked to the ice by the other, they get tangled up and the D goes down too
*Just trailing him, Jesper Fast is coming into the situation and manage to pick up the puck and tries to go around the bodies lying in front of him
*The other Cap D manage to get a stick on stick with Fast and the puck goes to the outside, Fast and the Cap defender is tangled up and both goes to the ice
*Shattenkirk have joined the play and picks the puck and goes around the net
*He puts the puck on the net where Kreider is standing
*Frederik Claesson have joined the play too and the Cap defenders, both of them just having been forced to scramble to make defensive plays failed to pick him up, as did their center and wingers

If we look at the top scorers in this league, the names that really stand out are guys like Jonathan Marchessault, Brayden Point, Seb Aho, Marchand and Pasternak are exceeding all expectations, Troschek and so forth and so forth -- why is that? Why are these guys so effective in this league right now? Its because they play like the later example for sure. They genuinely challenges the defenders, they don't skate into the zone with zero intent to try to beat their guy, they go at it. Scoring has gone up a lot, defenders are struggling, this is the big difference.

Under Quinn so far I see a a lot of simplistic school book plays designed to get pucks on net and don't risk too much. Going through your guy seems to be more of a message to the guys going up against a D to get to a rebound. It worked for LAK but the game have changed. We are getting a lot of pucks to the net and shot attempts, but its not going to be effective.

OTOH, every time you really go for it, you risk losing the puck instantly and seeing a counter attack going the other way that surely will result in shots against pressure on the Ds and forwards.

From what I've seen about Minnesota, they score mostly by creating odd-man rushes, even as close in as the high slot via quick give-and-go cycles and defensemen willing to play low in the zone. They crash the net hard too. I guess they are more like your first description than your second, but not many teams are willing to play as you describe. Carolina is making a strong case for it though with how it's turned them around early.

Re: Quinn; I see the same things you do. It's just that he's had only less than a month to work with this roster, to establish his style of defending. We haven't put the same lineup in back-to-back games yet this season, and players have moved around the lineup even when dressed. Having watched his teams at BU, I think Quinn prefers the kind of aggression you describe (to a point), but it seems now the focus for the team has been to build incrementally ('get better every day'). First, clean up the in-zone defense. Next, establish an effective forecheck without sacrificing momentum and giving up odd-man rushes frequently. When are they going to start practicing the PP and PK? Quinn wanted to see Kreider on the PK, hasn't happened yet.

Point is, it seems too early to tell exactly what our attack will look like under Quinn. For now, he seems concerned with gaining and maintaining zone time and with correcting not just the forecheck but the backcheck to better neutralize oddman counters and position ourselves to be more aggressive in the future. While the LAK are a great example of an offensive schema that doesn't score well, they are also routinely great at what I've just described. Give it a few months, I have a feeling it could look very different.

 

[I Eat Crow]

Hard to disagree with Larry on those points. If DeAngelo continues to dog it, he should sit and go on the block. There is time for him to turn it around, but time is running out at the same time.

I'd send Chytil down and let him and Andersson get 20 minutes a night in all situations. I've been quite underwhelmed by him.

 

[LORDE]

I don't think it's a vendetta, I think they just do not like DeAngelo so he is going to always be behind the players they do like on the depth chart.

If that is a systematic organization thing, what does that say for future players they may not like?

Are they really willing to shrink down the possible pool of available talent based on how much they like or do not like a player, or based on whatever his reputation is? Or their perception of him, if so I'd say that is a pretty good way to do the stuff Montreal has done with players like Subban.

I still feel like it's very early.

Staal has been abysmal and hasn't gotten a seat.

Haven't heard anything about ADA problems since with NYR

 

[FIRE DRURY]

Brooks touched on many topics today

Brooks believes the Rangers should keep Andersson and Chytil in the AHL for almost the rest of this season so they get another slide on the ELC's. Send Chytil down and keep him there.





No slide for Hajek

Brooks also thinks the Rangers should play DeAngelo to figure what they have in him.

https://nypost.com/2018/10/18/domino-moves-rangers-should-make-as-filip-chytil-clock-ticks/

I agree with him.

 

[Krams]

Hard to disagree with Larry on those points. If DeAngelo continues to dog it, he should sit and go on the block. There is time for him to turn it around, but time is running out at the same time.

I'd send Chytil down and let him and Andersson get 20 minutes a night in all situations. I've been quite underwhelmed by him.

DeAngelo continues to dog it? I didn't see Larry mention anything about DeAngelo's work ethic.

 

[I Eat Crow]

DeAngelo continues to dog it? I didn't see Larry mention anything about DeAngelo's work ethic.

I thought a couple of the beat writers implied that the players getting scratched recently, including DeAngelo, were getting scratched because their efforts in both games and practice were inconsistent.

My sincere apologies if I'm wrong, but I thought that's what I saw posted here a couple days back.

 

[Irishguy42]

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

2019 first rounder for Kasperi Kapanen incoming