You are not seriously suggesting we get to sign each and every single one of the good ones?
In Butcher's case, it was prob b'c he saw a faster more immediate path at LD.
We are backed up, and couldn't/wouldn't offer him a slot.
Speculation: Roster Building Thread Part XI: We can read between the lines
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In Butcher's case, it was prob b'c he saw a faster more immediate path at LD.
We are backed up, and couldn't/wouldn't offer him a slot.
Edge
Kris King's Ghost
With all due respect to Puljujarvi, he's been sliding for a while.
This is a kid who at one point was neck and neck with Laine a year out from the 2016 draft. Then Lane started to pull ahead and take it up a notch, while Puljujarvi didn't quite take it to the next level.
By draft day he had slipped to the fourth pick. Okay, that happens sometimes.
But since then he has posted 1 goal and 8 points in 28 NHL games, and been mostly a mixed bag in the AHL. That's not to say he's a bust, but at the very least he's certainly not looking like the talent he was once projected to be. I'd say at this point the hope is that he can still become a very good NHL payer, to say nothing about being an elite one.
If you trade Kreider, you have to know you're getting a legit NHL talent back. Warts and all, Kreider has three consecutive 20+ goal seasons (and was on a 20+ goal pace back in 2014). And that's assuming it even makes sense to trade him, which I personally don't think it does unless there is a heck of an offer on the table.
This is a kid who at one point was neck and neck with Laine a year out from the 2016 draft. Then Lane started to pull ahead and take it up a notch, while Puljujarvi didn't quite take it to the next level.
By draft day he had slipped to the fourth pick. Okay, that happens sometimes.
But since then he has posted 1 goal and 8 points in 28 NHL games, and been mostly a mixed bag in the AHL. That's not to say he's a bust, but at the very least he's certainly not looking like the talent he was once projected to be. I'd say at this point the hope is that he can still become a very good NHL payer, to say nothing about being an elite one.
If you trade Kreider, you have to know you're getting a legit NHL talent back. Warts and all, Kreider has three consecutive 20+ goal seasons (and was on a 20+ goal pace back in 2014). And that's assuming it even makes sense to trade him, which I personally don't think it does unless there is a heck of an offer on the table.
Do not agree with this at all.
.71 PPG in your 18 year old season in that league is very good. His start this year has been slow, but its also just 7 games.
Agree with everything else though.
I agree that your return needs to start with a player that is GOING to be a very good NHLer with the potential to become elite, not someone you are hoping will be as good as CK is right now. If you are getting question marks back, there better be a lot of them....
1. He did not get old overnight. If you paid attention last year, you could see the decline commence.
2. What is hard to understand and accept is why you think that he would do you a favor and simply retire without collecting the $20m or so that is owed to him? I do not know many people that would do that.
Amazing Kreiderman
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TheTakedown
Puck is Life
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Some interesting stuff here. While some of the charts state the Rangers are underperforming, some of it shows me that the team just might not be that good
Edge
Kris King's Ghost
Laine put up .87 in his rookie season in the NHL, Matthews .86. Those are the guys he was projected to be on par with.
The fact that Puljujarvi posted .71 in the AHL has to be considered a let-down, no matter how we slice it. While it would be considered a good season for a lot of 18 year olds, Puljujarvi was not supposed to be like a lot of 18 year olds.
At both the AHL and NHL, this was a kid who didn't seem to be driving the offense the way one would think he was going to. In fact, I'd probably argue that he benefited more from playing with Anton Lander in the AHL than Lander benefited from him. This was even documented by a lot of people who closely followed the Oilers last season. I think that's also one of the reasons why Puljujarvi is struggling thus far this season in the AHL - he wasn't the one generating the offense on his line, Lander was.
In short, Lander's gone, and Puljujarvi is in a little bit of trouble.
Right now, Puljujarvi is not a kid on the brink of stardom. In fact, right now, Puljujarvi is not a kid on the brink of the NHL. He's not tantalizing people the way he was projected to, he's not even tantalizing people the way our own Filip Chytil is right now.
That's not to say I wouldn't take a flyer on him, but I would be very cautious about the way he's been trending for three seasons now. This is not a prospect I view as a centerpiece for a guy like Chris Kreider.
Gardner McKay
RIP, Jimmy.
Edge, this is fantastic post and I think is a perfect example of what can be deduced when you take an objective look at a situation rather than simply looking at where a guy was drafted.
I have a hard enough time keeping track of projections for Rangers picks, let alone Edmontons but I agree that it is clear that Puljujarvi should not be the main piece in a trade for Kreider.
Yes, if any teams overpay him with +1 1st pick + (if so move him). Most know that he is a support player - he need talented finishers on his line to be successful. I remember from the World Cup in hockey with Leon Draisaitl - a classic example Leon scored with pass fom Zucc who created it.
Edge
Kris King's Ghost
It's sad because he's going to have a hard time living up to expectations, especially if Matthews and Laine continue to climb into the ranks of elite superstardom.
It wasn't that long ago that the Laine-Puljujarvi debate was once referenced as being a debate as to whether you'd rather a Selanne-type player, or a Kurri-type player. Clearly, that is no longer the debate.
Ironically, at the start of the 2015 season, I preferred Puljujarvi. I thought he was the more complete player and the marginal offensive difference (and personality concerns) with Laine were not enough to rank him as the higher of the two.
However, any time you watch younger players, you have to be willing to evolve in your expectations and projections. Some guys will surprise you and perform better than you think, other guys will underperform, some will be spot on.
I thought JT Miller could be a very nice 15 goal, 45 point support player. He exceeded that and I had to adjust my expectations.
A generation before, I thought Dubinsky should've been in the 25 goal, 65 point range for many years. He's only come close once, and that was going on 7 years ago.
Edge
Kris King's Ghost
I think you'd get a first and an fairly high prospect from a playoff team.
A high pick and a b-prospect from a non-playoff team.
Zucc is a support player, but he's arguably near the top of the list for support players. If you're a team that feel it has a legit first line center, especially one on the younger side, you could view him as a hell of a compliment.
DanielBrassard
It's all so tiresome
That's interesting for sure, nice post Edge. I think if we are trading Kreider to EDM Kailer Yamamoto has to be the one coming back. Atleast that's what I would want, even if the rest of the return wasn't as strong.
Sure, Puljujärvi isn't Laine or Matthews, but he's still a VERY good prospect, a clear blue chip prospect. I haven't looked it up but i'd guess the list of teenage AHLers with over 0.7PPG is pretty short, even if you add 20 yo's his season would stack up very well.
So sure, when you compare him to where he projected 1½ years ago he's not looking to hot, but if you forget about his early projections and look at his young career and how he's progressing then he's looking like an amazing prospect. Went from ~0.5+ PPG in Liiga to ~0.7 PPG in AHL as a teenager.
Look at PLD who was picked ahead of him, he's arguably not progressed at all since the draft, Puljujärvi has.
So sure, when you compare him to where he projected 1½ years ago he's not looking to hot, but if you forget about his early projections and look at his young career and how he's progressing then he's looking like an amazing prospect. Went from ~0.5+ PPG in Liiga to ~0.7 PPG in AHL as a teenager.
Look at PLD who was picked ahead of him, he's arguably not progressed at all since the draft, Puljujärvi has.
If the conversation is turning to Yamamoto or Puljujarvi, then yeah I'd rather have Yamamoto.
I just don't think its fair to dock points from Puljujarvi because he hasn't produced at the rate that guys who went ahead of him in his draft year have produced at, or to pin his production from last year on Anton Lander (You can't throw any schmuck on the ice with Lander and expect the same results) and then point to 7 games from this year as proof that hes in trouble. It's 7 games, just as its been 6 for Chytil.
I acknowledge the red flags, but most prospects have them. If he didn't we wouldn't be discussing this.
FWIW, I don't really want to trade Kreider either.
I just don't think its fair to dock points from Puljujarvi because he hasn't produced at the rate that guys who went ahead of him in his draft year have produced at, or to pin his production from last year on Anton Lander (You can't throw any schmuck on the ice with Lander and expect the same results) and then point to 7 games from this year as proof that hes in trouble. It's 7 games, just as its been 6 for Chytil.
I acknowledge the red flags, but most prospects have them. If he didn't we wouldn't be discussing this.
FWIW, I don't really want to trade Kreider either.
HatTrick Swayze
Just Be Nice
I will go to bat for Puljujarvi. The talent is unquestionably there. I don't want to move Kreider at all, and I wouldn't be happy straight up, but would like JP as a centerpiece. More so than Yamamoto. I don't think Yam has to potential to be a franchise altering player in the way that JP does.
DanielBrassard
It's all so tiresome
DanielBrassard
It's all so tiresome
Inferno
Registered User
i dont WANT to move Kreider..but id be tempted at JP + first.
Edmontons first could be a real good pick.
Edmontons first could be a real good pick.
Probably not though, they're looking good in pretty much all the underlying metrics and they have McDavid + a good goalie, they'll climb.
I don't know what to make of the old guard being there. Nothing that would be available on either team interests me.
Not that it matters, I expect them to right the ship pretty soon.
Edmonton would want it lottery protected for sure.
Not that it matters, I expect them to right the ship pretty soon.
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