Roster Building Thread - Part XI (Off-season edition)

[Machinehead]

"Kakko can play down-low"

"Ok, but he needs to turn some of that into offense."

"That's not his fault because..." *tirade about linemates*

"I don't wanna hear about his linemates anymore."

That's pretty much how the conversation went. I guess somewhere in there, Schroedinger's Machinehead said he's not an NHL player or whatever the f***.

 

[noncents]

Show me where I said any of that?

sure
"a loser"
"i hate kakko"
"not an nhl player most of the time"
"he's bad at offense because he's dumb"
"i could score more than him"

by the way, any comment on the previous post where i laid out that in his last healthy season he scored well at evens relative to other players his age?

 

[noncents]

"Kakko can play down-low"

"Ok, but he needs to turn some of that into offense."

"That's not his fault because..." *tirade about linemates*

"I don't wanna hear about his linemates anymore."

That's pretty much how the conversation went. I guess somewhere in there, Schroedinger's Machinehead said he's not an NHL player or whatever the f***.

sorry buddy, this is a mischaracterization. i have clarified over and over again that what I am arguing is that Kakko is a useful and value-positive player (relative to cap hit) with room for upside. That's it.

to use your strawman style: is that so controversial a take?

you're the one saying he's a loser, he's not an NHL player, he sucks and they should replace him.

I'm happy to hear any Kakko alternatives and discuss their merits. I just think a 4th rounder or whatever is bad value for a useful depth player.

 

[Machinehead]

sure
"a loser"
"i hate kakko"
"not an nhl player most of the time"
"he's bad at offense because he's dumb"
"i could score more than him"

by the way, any comment on the previous post where i laid out that in his last healthy season he scored well at evens relative to other players his age?

He's absolutely dumb. His hockey IQ is terrible.

He does do nothing most of the time, which describes any bottom six NHL player. He goes through long stretches where his production is well below replacement level. He's a streaky player who doesn't score a whole lot during his good stretches. All of that is accurate.

You thought that last one was serious? I can't even stand up in skates.

Do I have a response? No. I don't care. You win. You're right. You win the argument.

I'm over talking about this third ass liner.

 

[noncents]

He's absolutely dumb. His hockey IQ is terrible.

He does do nothing most of the time, which describes any bottom six NHL player. He goes through long stretches where his production is well below replacement level. He's a streaky player who doesn't score a whole lot during his good stretches. All of that is accurate.

You thought that last one was serious? I can't even stand up in skates.

Do I have a response? No. I don't care. You win. You're right. You win the argument.

I'm over talking about this third ass liner.

no, it was clear you were joking, but your outrage at being characterized as a kakko hater (again, your prerogative) was absurd so i included it lmao.

still no response or acknowledgement that he scored well at evens in his last healthy season relative to his age group. i guess you're just so oVeR tAlKiNg aBoUt a ThIrD aSs LiNeR.

seriously why are you so cheesed off by my disagreement with you here? he's not a great player, and we probably beefed it by drafting him 2ovr. That sucks. but to your point it's been 6 years.. time to get over the sunk draft capital.

he's a useful player at his cap hit, so i hope they don't trade him at bad value.

 

[Machinehead]

no, it was clear you were joking, but your outrage at being characterized as a kakko hater (again, your prerogative) was absurd so i included it lmao.

still no response or acknowledgement that he scored well at evens in his last healthy season relative to his age group. i guess you're just so oVeR tAlKiNg aBoUt a ThIrD aSs LiNeR.

seriously why are you so cheesed off by my disagreement with you here? he's not a great player, and we probably beefed it by drafting him 2ovr. That sucks. but to your point it's been 6 years.. time to get over the sunk draft capital.

he's a useful player at his cap hit, so i hope they don't trade him at bad value.

I just don't think, even in the best possible portrayal of Kakko as a player, he's worth all this energy. He's just a warm body.

I think we need fewer warm bodies but that's not on him as an individual.

If you don't want to trade him for value reasons, then sure, that's a fine take.

 

[NYR Viper]

I just don't think, even in the best possible portrayal of Kakko as a player, he's worth all this energy. He's just a warm body.

I think we need fewer warm bodies but that's not on him as an individual.

If you don't want to trade him for value reasons, then sure, that's a fine take.

I think the proper take on Kakko is that he exudes some level of excitement from me in a similar way that someone like Berard or Othmann do, only a bit moreso because I still think his natural talent is higher. If Kakko had played in the AHL last year, I am positive he would have been around a ppg, likely exceeding it. He's 23 years old and a big body.

I think the reality of the situation is that he hasn't met expectations, but he is still a player the team should try to develop and get more from.

 

[noncents]

I just don't think, even in the best possible portrayal of Kakko as a player, he's worth all this energy. He's just a warm body.

I think we need fewer warm bodies but that's not on him as an individual.

If you don't want to trade him for value reasons, then sure, that's a fine take.

your rhetoric as a response to the pure volume of discourse about the player makes sense to me. I think it's the sink draft capital as well as the faintest glimmer of potential to be an impact player that causes him to be such a hot topic. without seeing that glimmer it's bound to appear stupid.

id be happy to trade kakko for value. i'm honestly not sure how it plays out. cheers.

 

[Machinehead]

your rhetoric as a response to the pure volume of discourse about the player makes sense to me. I think it's the sink draft capital as well as the faintest glimmer of potential to be an impact player that causes him to be such a hot topic. without seeing that glimmer it's bound to appear stupid.

id be happy to trade kakko for value. i'm honestly not sure how it plays out. cheers.

Right, and I don't see it.

I guess what annoys me is the throwing analytics in my face. I use them but I form opinions independent of them. Some are good and some are bad as far as Kakko goes, and I'll use them as examples to support my argument.

At the end of the day, I wouldn't feel as strongly as I do if I thought he had the talent to have an impact at this level. I don't think he does. That's not based on anything other than seeing him play. I could be wrong about that.

I'm not sold on Cuylle either.

I think the development curve of forwards in this organization is that they either turn into guys that can score but have huge holes, or guys that play a well-rounded game and watching them play offense is like watching paint dry. It's always one or the other. I think that's an issue with the organization, but again, I'm not convinced Kakko ever had the talent at this level that he did at previous levels. It's a jump and he has yet to make it.

 

[Lindberg Cheese]

Synergy

 

[Gordon Bombay]

He needs more puck possession and less puck possession at the same time, he is….

Dewey Kax

@will1066 inform the writers of another storyline

 

[NYR Viper]

Watching these goals from 22-23, I'm not seeing a sub-NHL level player.

 

[bhamill]

I did say that about Lafreniere and I was wrong. Maybe I'll be wrong about Kakko as a player. All I'm saying is, blaming the situation isn't it anymore. It's been five years. It's on Kakko that he hasn't lived up to the pick, and it's on him to be better.

It shouldn't be a controversial take at all that Kakko just needs to be better.

It’s not exclusively one or the other. Just like it isnt for Mika and Kreids at EV.
Yes it’s on the player to some extent, but it’s also situational.
And yes he needs to be better. And being on a line that works would sure be a means to that end.

Also I’m not trying to give you a rash of shit about Laf. We’re all wrong sometimes. Maybe I’m wrong about Kakko. I was just saying it happens.

 

[NYR94]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1825625032476803081

 

[Machinehead]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1825625032476803081

You have to take the under here until he's a staple on powerplay 1.

And that's fine. I want him to be the most effective version of himself in the role he has. I don't need to impress anybody.

 

[bhamill]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1825625032476803081

If he gets regular pp1 I say he goes over easily.
If no pp time I think just around there maybe a bit under. It’s not crazy to think he that he can just do 13 points better than last year without regular PP1 time.

 

[effen]

At the end of the day, I wouldn't feel as strongly as I do if I thought he had the talent to have an impact at this level. I don't think he does. That's not based on anything other than seeing him play. I could be wrong about that.

Doesn't have the mental to take and own space in hard areas, doesn't have the burst and zone sense to fill holes that appear and get off a quick shot/pass/whatever.

It's really hard to be any sort of offensive player without either of those two attributes. You can definitely just exist and be a bottom sixer, and he does, and he is. That's kind of it with him.

Everything else written about him and scoring is wishcasting.

 

[Rongomania]

Doesn't have the mental to take and own space in hard areas, doesn't have the burst and zone sense to fill holes that appear and get off a quick shot/pass/whatever.

It's really hard to be any sort of offensive player without either of those two attributes. You can definitely just exist and be a bottom sixer, and he does, and he is. That's kind of it with him.

Everything else written about him and scoring is wishcasting.

These are absolutely parts of the game a 23 1/2 yr old 2nd overall pick can work on and grow.

The things Kak has shown he can do well, well those are the non-stat tracking things you can’t teach easily and take a damn long time to learn.

 

[Machinehead]

These are absolutely parts of the game a 23 1/2 yr old 2nd overall pick can work on and grow.

The things Kak has shown he can do well, well those are the non-stat tracking things you can’t teach easily and take a damn long time to learn.

I think it's quite the opposite.

You can teach most NHL talents how to play defense and cycle. You can't learn being offensively dynamic.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

Kakko is a weird player.

Like, people talk about his hands and his ability to control the puck/win battles down low, and that's true, but the second he tries to do anything but just hold it, he loses the puck easier than any player I've seen at this level.

He has great hands and horrendous hands at the same time.

I don't find he loses it quick but I do find he gets caught in a loop in the corner and eventually loses it instead of just heading for the net with it. Going back and forth up and down the wall is useless and predictable, he needs to be unpredictable, force the dman to take a penalty as he forces his way from the corner to the net and for God's sake shoot when you get somewhere decent with it. I maintain a lot of his issue is speed to separate from defenders, imo I think he'll work on that this summer and will be a different player, just my opinion

 

[Rongomania]

I think it's quite the opposite.

You can teach most NHL talents how to play defense and cycle. You can't learn being offensively dynamic.

Please tell me how many forwards from his draft class have better defensive awareness/cycle game than he does?

I know all the ones that have more points than him so spare me.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

"Kakko can play down-low"

"Ok, but he needs to turn some of that into offense."

"That's not his fault because..." *tirade about linemates*

"I don't wanna hear about his linemates anymore."

That's pretty much how the conversation went. I guess somewhere in there, Schroedinger's Machinehead said he's not an NHL player or whatever the f***.

He desperately needs more speed and i think everything else falls in place after that.

 

[Machinehead]

I don't find he loses it quick but I do find he gets caught in a loop in the corner and eventually loses it instead of just heading for the net with it. Going back and forth up and down the wall is useless and predictable, he needs to be unpredictable, force the dman to take a penalty as he forces his way from the corner to the net and for God's sake shoot when you get somewhere decent with it.

One of the things about Kakko where he should be a lot better is drawing penalties.

You can pretty much pull out a knife mug him. They won't call it.

I think a big reason for that is his inability to get the puck into dangerous areas. Referees often react to how good of a chance you're preventing.

Please tell me how many players from his draft class have better defensive awareness/cycle game than he does?

I know all the ones that have more points than him so spare me.

Ok, well I care about the points so I'll spare you.

 

[Rongomania]

One of the things about Kakko where he should be a lot better is drawing penalties.

You can pretty much pull out a knife mug him. They won't call it.

I think a big reason for that is his inability to get the puck into dangerous areas. Referees often react to how good of a chance you're preventing.

Ok, well I care about the points so I'll spare you.

Never said I didn’t care. You’re twisting words.

I’ve said numerous times, actually, in direct responses to you, that I believe his point totals are underwhelming so far.

And I am damn sure not the only one who doesn’t think he’s done cooking.

 

[Machinehead]

Never said I didn’t care. You’re twisting words.

I’ve said numerous times, actually, in direct responses to you, that I believe his point totals are underwhelming so far.

And I am damn sure not the only one who doesn’t think he’s done cooking.

His cooking is going to lead to a health department violation.