Roster Building Thread - Part XI (Off-season edition)

[Machinehead]

Were, haven't watched baseball in years for good reason.

At this point, it's the Dodgers headed for a billion-dollar payroll eventually and 29 poverty franchises.

The Yankees turned into Scrooge. They haven't had a legit left fielder or third baseman probably since you're watching. That would cost money.

Baseball's cap system also sucks, so there's that.

 

[Machinehead]

I think there needs to be a happy medium. The NHL cap is so harsh that you have no choice but to dismantle a Cup winning team almost immediately. It also seriously limits the trade market as only a handful of teams have the flexibility to make trades at any given time.

I think the Cap should be reworked to prioritize smart management, exactly as you say. There should be incentives for drafting and trading well, and disincentives for signing free agents. Something like drafted players counting for only x% of their AAV, whereas FA count for the whole AAV.

I want to give the small market teams a chance without completely hamstringing entertainment value.

People always bring up MLB, which, like I said, also sucks. There are other options.

I really don't know much about the NFL's system. I know it's a hard cap, but I don't feel like teams have to hitch their wagon to like five good players and then count beans in the NFL.

The NBA has a really good system. It has allowed for a ton of interesting player movement and has also mostly prevented f***ery. The term "super team" gets thrown around but that's mostly a meme. Look at Team USA's roster for the upcoming Olympics. That's a super team. It has never existed in the NBA. The one legit example of an NBA franchise just buying an entire team is the KD/Kyrie/Harden Nets and they failed miserably. Since the Warriors Era ended, success in the NBA has mostly been built on homegrown talent, but contenders and up-comers also have the freedom to augment their rosters.

And yes, the Warriors Era was boring. That was the greatest team ever versus prime LeBron who was an automatic ticket to the Finals. It didn't happen because of the cap system, it happened because it just happened and nothing really could have been done to prevent it.

 

[LOFIN]

I think there needs to be a happy medium. The NHL cap is so harsh that you have no choice but to dismantle a Cup winning team almost immediately. It also seriously limits the trade market as only a handful of teams have the flexibility to make trades at any given time.

I think the Cap should be reworked to prioritize smart management, exactly as you say. There should be incentives for drafting and trading well, and disincentives for signing free agents. Something like drafted players counting for only x% of their AAV, whereas FA count for the whole AAV.

I want to give the small market teams a chance without completely hamstringing entertainment value.

Pretty much my biggest gripe with the current cap system. Cup winning teams are often entertaining and good. We are purposefully taking that away by forcing good teams to become worse. So annoying. And if you are a fan of such team, at least you have that cup to turn back to. Teams that get close but don't win? Tough shit, same fate awaits you as well, as you missed your best window and maybe have another shot in 10 years when you have done a rebuild.

I don't really care how at this point, there are so many potential ways. But more flexibility is needed.

 

[Harbour Dog]

People always bring up MLB, which, like I said, also sucks. There are other options.

I really don't know much about the NFL's system. I know it's a hard cap, but I don't feel like teams have to hitch their wagon to like five good players and then count beans in the NFL.

The NBA has a really good system. It has allowed for a ton of interesting player movement and has also mostly prevented f***ery. The term "super team" gets thrown around but that's mostly a meme. Look at Team USA's roster for the upcoming Olympics. That's a super team. It has never existed in the NBA. The one legit example of an NBA franchise just buying an entire team is the KD/Kyrie/Harden Nets and they failed miserably. Since the Warriors Era ended, success in the NBA has mostly been built on homegrown talent, but contenders and up-comers also have the freedom to augment their rosters.

And yes, the Warriors Era was boring. That was the greatest team ever versus prime LeBron who was an automatic ticket to the Finals. It didn't happen because of the cap system, it happened because it just happened and nothing really could have been done to prevent it.

Just for my own clarity, is the biggest difference between the NHL and NBA caps, the luxury tax and associated clauses?

Because I'm pro-cap, but the idea of a luxury tax just makes a tonne of sense.

 

[bhamill]

Damage control. That entire article might as well have been written by the NYR PR department.

Or the other stuff could have been clickbait...

 

[LOFIN]

Or the other stuff could have been clickbait...

I mean even Friedman reported on the deal potentially happening at the draft

 

[Barnaby]

He has the potential to be better but he's definitely not there yet. I think giving him a full season will allow him to actually develop much in the way that actually giving Laf regular ice time helped him.

I'm making an arbitrary number but say you want to get a player 1000 minutes of ice time before they "make it" and another 1000 minutes so he can "get it." In four season, Zac roughly had 146m, 182m, 248m, 450m = ~1026 minutes on ice. He's finally made it but he's gonna need some time to put it all together at this level and play his best games. That's around 15 minutes a night for 67+ games this season. Zac's highest games played was 31 last season.

I think there needs to be a happy medium. The NHL cap is so harsh that you have no choice but to dismantle a Cup winning team almost immediately. It also seriously limits the trade market as only a handful of teams have the flexibility to make trades at any given time.

I think the Cap should be reworked to prioritize smart management, exactly as you say. There should be incentives for drafting and trading well, and disincentives for signing free agents. Something like drafted players counting for only x% of their AAV, whereas FA count for the whole AAV.

I want to give the small market teams a chance without completely hamstringing entertainment value.

I don’t see the players signing on for that. They aren’t going to want to reduce their value when they hit the market.

 

[bhamill]

I mean even Friedman reported on the deal potentially happening at the draft

All it takes is one person spreading it and everybody will get on it.
Now I'm not saying that IS the case, I'm just saying that, as usual, we actually have no idea if it was close or not.

 

[Machinehead]

Just for my own clarity, is the biggest difference between the NHL and NBA caps, the luxury tax and associated clauses?

Because I'm pro-cap, but the idea of a luxury tax just makes a tonne of sense.

I would say it's the luxury tax, the robust cap floor, and the various exceptions whereby re-signing your own guys sort of "doesn't count" or counts for less.

The NBA cap system is ridiculously convoluted and you could write volumes on it, but suffice to say not every player counts exactly the same dollar for dollar like in the NHL. So for example, when we extended Zibanejad, since he played for the Rangers and we were re-signing him, a large part of his new AAV (up to 175% of his previous salary) wouldn't count towards the cap.

My favorite thing is the floor. The cap floor is 90% of the cap ceiling. If you buy a basketball team, the league literally forces you to spend money on the team. It removes the zombie franchises that go through their whole existence being shit like in MLB, and it creates a lot of rebuilding teams that are just looking to take your bad contracts. When the Celtics made their big moves this summer, they sent salary they didn't want all over the league to make space. It's like the Arizona meme but a dozen teams are Arizona.

 

[Machinehead]

I don’t see the players signing on for that. They aren’t going to want to reduce their value when they hit the market.

Changing the system to pretty much anything more flexible would increase player value because GM's would have more to spend.

NHL salaries have tanked because of the cap. Relative to inflation, they made more in the 90's.

 

[1Knee1T]

I would say it's the luxury tax, the robust cap floor, and the various exceptions whereby re-signing your own guys sort of "doesn't count" or counts for less.

The NBA cap system is ridiculously convoluted and you could write volumes on it, but suffice to say not every player counts exactly the same dollar for dollar like in the NHL. So for example, when we extended Zibanejad, since he played for the Rangers and we were re-signing him, a large part of his new AAV (up to 175% of his previous salary) wouldn't count towards the cap.

My favorite thing is the floor. The cap floor is 90% of the cap ceiling. If you buy a basketball team, the league literally forces you to spend money on the team. It removes the zombie franchises that go through their whole existence being shit like in MLB, and it creates a lot of rebuilding teams that are just looking to take your bad contracts. When the Celtics made their big moves this summer, they sent salary they didn't want all over the league to make space. It's like the Arizona meme but a dozen teams are Arizona.

I'm not a huge basketball fan but I do follow the NBA strictly because the salary cap rules and team building practices in the league fascinate me. The NHL using their cap system has been my white whale for years.

On a similar note, I'm not shocked at all to have already read some discourse about the Brunson discount vs. Igor's next deal in this thread

 

[Machinehead]

I'm not a huge basketball fan but I do follow the NBA strictly because the salary cap rules and team building practices in the league fascinate me. The NHL using their cap system has been my white whale for years.

On a similar note, I'm not shocked at all to have already read some discourse about the Brunson discount vs. Igor's next deal in this thread

To be fair, if Igor signed for the max salary at the max length, he still wouldn't make what Brunson is making on his discounted deal.

This is what happens when one sport has active, malicious wage suppression and the other doesn't.

They sold us a bill of goods on the whole "competitive balance" thing (by the way, when was that ever a problem in the NHL? Rich teams mostly sucked pre-cap). The salary cap in the NHL exists to do one thing: make players A LOT less expensive. It's been a smashing success.

 

[Mac n Gs]

It’s both very funny and very sad to look at how drastically different the league values have changed between the NHL and NBA once Bettman was hired. You would think he’d have tried implementing the soft cap by now, especially since he was a major player in implementing it for the NBA.

But hey, he’s made the owners a ton of money which is his main job.

 

[Profet]

Ugh... Konecny would look so good next to the wonder twins.

 

[Mac n Gs]

Ugh... Konecny would look so good next to the wonder twins.

He reportedly wants $10M AAV on his next deal, and he’ll likely be the most expensive rental this season. He’s a very good player and probably worth something in that price range, but I don’t see how we can make that fit with the contract extensions for Igor, Laf, and Miller next year

 

[Profet]

He reportedly wants $10M AAV on his next deal, and he’ll likely be the most expensive rental this season. He’s a very good player and probably worth something in that price range, but I don’t see how we can make that fit with the contract extensions for Igor, Laf, and Miller next year

My guess is that his deal ends up being around $8.5

We would have to move on from some players...certainly. Namely Trouba, Lindgren and possibly Igor.

 

[TominNC]

The NBA and NFL make a LOT more money than the NHL. While the others are have caps for some level of competitive balance the NHL needs to suppress salaries to stay in business in several markets.

 

[Machinehead]

The NBA and NFL make a LOT more money than the NHL. While the others are have caps for some level of competitive balance the NHL needs to suppress salaries to stay in business in several markets.

f*** those markets. If you need to suppress salaries to stay in business, your business has failed.

 

[NikC]

To be fair, if Igor signed for the max salary at the max length, he still wouldn't make what Brunson is making on his discounted deal.

This is what happens when one sport has active, malicious wage suppression and the other doesn't.

They sold us a bill of goods on the whole "competitive balance" thing (by the way, when was that ever a problem in the NHL? Rich teams mostly sucked pre-cap). The salary cap in the NHL exists to do one thing: make players A LOT less expensive. It's been a smashing success.

It only benefits the league and Bettman. It's created nothing but parity and boring "anyone can beat anyone" matchups. If you're one of the blessed franchises to truly draft a generational talent like a Pittsburgh, or an Edmonton... Great (btw it's funny how those same 2 franchises keep getting the best players to ever play the game huh?)

I'm not going to pretend I know anything about the NHL cap/salary structure... but there needs to be some changes to allow teams that try to build a team in this cap system... to keep their star players and build a team around them.

The rangers have screwed things up before/after the cap... not sure how it would hurt the NYR to have extra $ to supplement this core that can't get it done?

 

[haohmaru]

I'd really like to see the NHL implement something where drafted players count less against a team's cap. Seems like a no-brainer for franchises and fans.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

I feel like they can just follow the NBA model and be fine.

The hard cap is stupid.

 

[MrAlmost]

New Cap

- Teams can exceed ceiling by 10% for a tax. (If Cap is 100 million, you can go over by 10 million)
- Teams can designate 1 "Franchise" player.
- That player needs to be on an 8 year deal. (Max length)
- That players Cap Hit is halved. (50%)

To illustrate how nice and easy this is, if this were in effect right now, the Rangers would have 19 million in cap space. Haha

 

[Mac n Gs]

My guess is that his deal ends up being around $8.5

We would have to move on from some players...certainly. Namely Trouba, Lindgren and possibly Igor.

Yeah, that seems like a reasonable compromise for him. The only issue for me is figuring out what he’d cost in a trade because it seems like it would be a lot to acquire. If we’re paying a big price to add someone, I’d rather opt for Marty Necas since he has the potential to shift between C and W and you’re getting a player 2 years younger

 

[McRanger]

The league should have a buyout option that allowed teams to eat the entirety of the salary/bonus money for no cap hit. Players would still get their full pay (plus whatever they resign for) and teams with the financial resources to make annoying contracts go away would have the flexibility to do so.

 

[Hire Sather]

My guess is that his deal ends up being around $8.5

We would have to move on from some players...certainly. Namely Trouba, Lindgren and possibly Igor.

I'd really like to see the NHL implement something where drafted players count less against a team's cap. Seems like a no-brainer for franchises and fans.

Certainly would make keeping Igor less painful.

IMO we've gotten elite Igor at a good cap but the time has come to move on. Once he's being paid 11-12 mill it's just not worth it.