Roster Building thread - Part X - (TDL edition)

[Zynbanejad]

Stop coaching Pat!
View attachment 876336

Honestly…he might be on to something

 

[nsvoyageurs]

Kakko won't be back. He may figure it out, but it will never be here.

Unfortunately, this is likely true.

 

[maris]

Unfortunately, this is likely true.

hope not. Learn from Laf experience

 

[n8]

Why don't we have a SERIES TALK thread? I would start one but I don't have time to update it (update title with current series score, etc). We don't have a great place to talk about the series (no post game threads, nothing for off days).

I wanted to ask if there are any clear shots of Bob taking a skate to the head from Laf on his goal.
EDIT: I got it

 

[Vitto79]

hope not. Learn from Laf experience

Laf came through in 4 yrs
Kakko had 5 and still hasn’t . The guy needs a change of scenery and maybe he will

 

[Overcast]

hope not. Learn from Laf experience

There was a time where Kakko was looked at as the more developed player as recent as last year. Unfortunately Kakko has stagnated and Laf has continued ticking upward slowly but surely. Kakko being scratched these playoffs (plus last playoffs) is not a good indicator of how the organization sees his development trending. Meanwhile Laf is scoring absolutely disgusting goals at huge times in huge games.

I think this will be Kakko's last hurrah here. This post-season was, I feel, his last chance to actually put up and change the organization's view of his trajectory. 2 points in 12 games plus a healthy scratch. While he does still have time to improve given how young he is, I don't think he's going to evolve on this team.

 

[Kendo]

The premise is correct, follow thru on #s was wrong
Premise = here, playing =ish time all 4 lines =
1.) solid pressure vs FL top line, which = physical benefits as game goes on
2) more rest for our top 3 lines

The #s w/zero PP/PK and no OT = 60 mins divide by 4 lines = 15 mins

but correct to note error to overlook PP/PK

Even in a game with zero special teams...you can't give Rempe the same amount of minutes as the best line in the league (French Bread Pizza). To cap it off, you said "at least."

Your premise is flawed, not just the detail. Again, it's fine to say "at least 10 minutes." But "Every line must play the same amount of 5v5 time NO EXCUSES" is just silly talk.

 

[Flan the incredible]

I just dont see kakko as a good NHL player due to his complete lack of playmaker ability. He doesn't create his own shot and when he does it isn't very good. What he excels at is holding onto the puck and defense. Thats a 4th line player with no grit. Sure he can score when he is all alone but most of his goals seem like tip ins.

Maybe he changes with another team but due to his contract situation he is probably gone.

 

[bernmeister]

Let's entertain this at face value. I'm not going to get into "that's unrealistic" talk. All of these moves are individually unrealistic, let alone the combo of all of them, but I'm addressing the hypothetical in good faith.

Kreider - Mika - Byfield
We obviously need someone there to complete that line. Getting Byfield would be an absolute COUP, but JIMINY CHRISTMAS that cost!

There is validity in gauging the value of Shesty. The strategy of "Never pay up on a G" has legs, even if I would rather keep him. This isn't the deal to convince me otherwise. Huge overpay.

This line as an isolated idea? I'd keep Mika in the middle, but I love it! All the maneuvers to get there? Hate it. =)

PLD - Tro - X
Oh my. Oh no. "Let's take arguably the best most consistent 5v5 line in the league and get rid of our top 5 F in the league, and our first ever 1st OA that's finally manifesting!"

I could entertain trading Bread, but at the deadline and only if the wheels completely fall off by then (which is highly doubtful anyway). There's going to be talk about an extension, but I'd be wary. Giving him another kick at the can and letting him walk gracefully into UFA might be best.

I'll get to the D, but this is trading an important piece (Bread) for a great dude we don't need (Ek) plus the wrong depth D (Niko), all to fit in a guy we didn't need to trade for in the first place (PLD). PLD's a better player than the year he just had, and if a team gets him at 50% that'd be a great value contract. But putting him there to replace a 120pt player? And then trading Laf PLUS for "futures"???

I love Berard and want him to have a spot on the THIRD line next season. Him or "most likely to be scratched for Matt Rempe" Jimmy Vesey (I'm teasing and value Jimmy's role in the DEPTH of the team), but one of those two are going to replace a Laf that has finally rounded the corner? You just turned our "Best 1st line in the NHL even though we've inexplicably called them the 2nd line all season," into "A nice little middle 6 line that might payoff like an average 2nd line if the stars align." Bad bet.

Cuylle - Chytil - KK
This is okay. It's just "kid line" with a rotating cast of LWs that we already have. Cuylle can move down and that's Berard's spot. If he struggles, it's Otter's turn there. Maybe even a cup of coffee for Sykora. Later in the season, if no one really "sticks," then I move Cuylle back up to that spot.

I know, I know. "Cuylle and KK have chemistry." They're both pretty good at making sure the other team doesn't score. Neither has shown that spark to make sure that their team does. Love 'em both, but they aren't even close to forcing you to not split them up.

Ed - Rem - Trou
Goodie - Brodz
I believe Edstrom deserves a shot out of camp. I really do. Rempe should be in and out of the lineup. Occasionally at C, too!

I ain't even mad about Trouba at F. I would be pumped if a coach had the stones to work that in as a "look."

Mikkola - Fox
KAM - ekblad
Scanlin - Schneider
Mikkola certainly has a role on a good team, but he has no place on ours specifically. You wanna replace Lindgren's 19ish points per season average that brings down Fox's production and replace that with Niko's 13ish???

I understand wanting to reconfigure the D without Trouba. Whether we move him to F or dump him to his desired location for a price. Ekblad's a great guy, a great talent. I don't see the appeal in trading Panarin to make that upgrade on Trouba and lateral at best move to Niko over Lindy.

If the impossible happens, and we trade Trouba with no retention for an actual return (or converting him to a F LOL)...Schneider moves up. Any move to acquire a D should be a 1LD to upgrade on Lindgren. Not some barely side-grade and an awkward fit above Schneider.

Scanlin's a good kid, but I will die on the hill that Jones deserves a real shot at Gus's spot, and he wouldn't move the needle in a trade anyway.

Quick - Garand - Domingue
I already granted the agree to disagree with Shesty. I get it, but wouldn't necessarily. Garand might actually have some juice, and Louie is a good soldier. If Domingue was the backup in the playoffs next year due to an injury or something, I'd at least be able to breathe. Garand needs another year to cook anyway.


All in all, I know that the effort is to add to and improve picks, while adding kids that are just about ready to come up. That's a good GMing goal. But you've trashed the second line, attempted to sell high on Igor, and made some lateral moves. Especially considering you've traded our farm (Othmann, Perreault, Jones, Sykora, BMB, Robertson) for a different one (Guhle, Reiner, Barron).

All to try and get a "third guy" for the 20-93 line. Even if I like that one addition in a vacuum.

Best - Friends - XXX
French - Bread - Pizza
Rookie - Chytil - Kakko
Cuylle - Goodie - Vesey
Eds - Remps - Brodz (all can play C)

We need ONE GUY and we're even better off than this season (injuries aside). Even if Kakko goes to the 1st line and Chytil actually has TWO rookies around him, that forward corps would absolutely SMOKE the one you put out. We could basically do nothing and still have a better 4 lines. Plus Shesty!

My move would be to try to dump Goodrow and grab a Chytil clone. That XXX above. Even if Kakko slots up, two Chytil's and a Rookie would be a SICK 3rd line.

TLDR: I see where your heart's at, but not where your head's at. I'll at least be constructive about it since I'm also an idiot that likes to type things. =)

I promised to review your comments. Least I can do after you extended courtesy to review

On Byfield --
I know it's massive overpay
there is no other way to do it.
Do you see us getting a Barkov level guy from somewhere?
No?
Then next best is to try and get a guy with that level trajectory

Howev, Ks only THINK about this if it checks off enuf boxes which requires massive overpay
In this specific situation, I think as expensive as it is, the upside of what we get >> currency lost.
just imo, but it is often necessary to decide whether or not to be bold and go big, which should not be done for the sake of going big, but for the results.
But when you get to that point, you have to seize opportunity if going big is the selected option. You can't hope opportunity will continue to knock.

-------------
Dealing LaF
Although you noted it in summary you do not have it covered above.
LaF goes ONLY for signif overpay, and that includes BOTH Guhle AND Rein.

----------

dealing bread
we are not giving him anywhere near 11.6+m
the idea is to get something while not making an ugly scene
Panths may not love the idea, but if their top scorer walks as ufa
and they have hope Ekblad returns following season, that's fine

****************
ok sure there's another topic or 2 to cover but gotta get back to the grind for now

best
bern

I just dont see kakko as a good NHL player due to his complete lack of playmaker ability. He doesn't create his own shot and when he does it isn't very good. What he excels at is holding onto the puck and defense. Thats a 4th line player with no grit. Sure he can score when he is all alone but most of his goals seem like tip ins.

Maybe he changes with another team but due to his contract situation he is probably gone.

he was fine w/original kid line
his skill set continues to improve, evolve
he will be a stud w/correct linemates and selling him cheap likely a bad move

 

[bernmeister]

Even in a game with zero special teams...you can't give Rempe the same amount of minutes as the best line in the league (French Bread Pizza). To cap it off, you said "at least."

Your premise is flawed, not just the detail. Again, it's fine to say "at least 10 minutes." But "Every line must play the same amount of 5v5 time NO EXCUSES" is just silly talk.

premise not flawed
premise is:
1. mo mins from our toughest line extracts a toll on FL top line
WORTH IT
2. Fewer mins by our top line >>>> than mo mins b'c they are rested, play w/mo energy + intensity

 

[n8]

There was a time where Kakko was looked at as the more developed player as recent as last year. Unfortunately Kakko has stagnated and Laf has continued ticking upward slowly but surely. Kakko being scratched these playoffs (plus last playoffs) is not a good indicator of how the organization sees his development trending. Meanwhile Laf is scoring absolutely disgusting goals at huge times in huge games.

I think this will be Kakko's last hurrah here. This post-season was, I feel, his last chance to actually put up and change the organization's view of his trajectory. 2 points in 12 games plus a healthy scratch. While he does still have time to improve given how young he is, I don't think he's going to evolve on this team.

I feel like in three separate times in his career, Kakko would have a breakout week where his play on and off puck was super strong and it would reflect on the score sheet. And then he'd get injured. I really wish he got a conditioning stint post injury in Hartford in those early years. 10 points in 4 games at that level would be great for his confidence and he feels like a very confidence-based player.

 

[noncents]

you gotta love the mentality of someone who feels that the more people disagree with him, the greater he is entitled to conviction in his own genius. there is total insulation from self-assessment or self honesty on any real level.

 

[Machinehead]

ok here is what should do for next season based on as things stand/appear now...

premise
we need to continuously improve, STAY AHEAD of the curve
on cap, youth -> energy, etc.

bread will be told, thanks, oter than Kreider and we'll see about Zib, vets are going to be dealt or youth. We are not gonna be a slave to the cap. Quality young assets when cheaper help manage that.
So Trouba, Shesty once practical, buh bye.
You are not getting renewed even in ballpark of 11.6
Let us send you to FL
Panth will need scoring esp if high end losses in ufa
bread + Bob could not be closer he waives, it avoids ugly nyc exit
and Panarin can play for his next contract also no st tax, etc

main piece the other way is Ekblad
he is ok on all cylinders now though his injury history of extensive concussions = risk
howev, he is only under contract next season, so risk in that sense is minimal
whether we want him back at what # and whether or not Ek prefers to return to Panths, you are dealing quality vet for quality vet(s) and getting structural cap relief.

1. bread 11.6+ expiring for ekblad, 7.5 exp + Mikkola, 2.5 x 2

fl gets Panarin and MAYBE Ekb later
Rs get Ekb to do RD and Mik replaces lindgren/Gust. Scanlin competes for 3LD outta camp

2. Lindy + Jones + 4th to UT for 2 2nds + 3rd

Def so far, w/bread dealt, possible to slide Fox 1 yr or so to 1LD while we await for Fortanescue but prob other options incl Barron from MON for 3RD, so Trouba either dealt or briefly temp parked at 4RW

Now we deal based on where trade partners go
There was chatter both ways if Byfield offer sheet got 4 low enuf 1st picks Kings would have to at least consider b'c they are effed short term on futures.
Given that they may consider:

3. Shesty + Othmann + Perrault + Sykora for Byfield + PLD at half

Ks gotta admit eating half is rough but it gets rid of structural cap probem child
also 2 quality y9oung pieces now still elc but better than waiting for drafted asset waiting to develop -- Othmann immediate help, per following yr is ready.

And shesty helps w/current window at ridiculous price and if they can't extend him, he gets A HAUL.

Also Byfield next deal will not be cheap.


Rs gamble Quick starts, Garand broken in. Domingue for depth
Obv, you do this to get a stud pivot.
pld, worst case, don't have to play him, only pay him, and already max retained once can have a final retain should that be a worthwhile discussion


That leaves LaF
again, I want enuf or we keep him
push comes to shove their hf base disagrees, but I think Habs mgt goes there..

4. LaF + Robertson + BMB for Guhle, Reinbacher + Barron

while this is a hit to MON D depth, it is taking away from depth to area of need
also Reinbacher not contributing to parent club now, not immediately available til following season, so short term it is Guhle for LaF
Barron is a throw in they can do, and Robertson is less valuable but lefty counter image, so no big whoop

Rs continue to move ahead


As a result of above:

assume Trouba not immediately moved for picks

Kreider - Byfield - Zib
pld - Tro - berard/Vesey
Cuylle - Chytil - KK
Edstrom - Rempe (yes he can pivot) - Trouba

reserve Goodrow Brods

then on D
Mikkola - Fox
KAM - ekblad
Scanlin - Schneider

in net
Quick - Garand - Domingue

given what might be available and costs
the above is best scenario to repurpose existing older assets reasonably possible to be moved
while adding quality youth and keeping cap flexble going forward

This is a fever dream.

 

[TominNC]

What the hell’s wrong with Duguay?

 

[Machinehead]

What the hell’s wrong with Duguay?

In his defense, watching Miller play defense is traumatic.

 

[Kocur Dill]

Honestly…he might be on to something

Like it accept Roz on L4. I'm playing Vesey-Goody-Rempe there.

Himmys no slowch, although Roz gets the edge in speed. Edge to experience for Himmy and swiss-army skill set.

You need two D minded hi-IQ guys to cover the angles till Rempe gets back into position.

 

[Kocur Dill]

I just dont see kakko as a good NHL player due to his complete lack of playmaker ability. He doesn't create his own shot and when he does it isn't very good. What he excels at is holding onto the puck and defense. Thats a 4th line player with no grit. Sure he can score when he is all alone but most of his goals seem like tip ins.

Maybe he changes with another team but due to his contract situation he is probably gone.

Said it before, I'll say it again.

Whether it's here or not, this kid needs someone to heavily suggest that he watches a boat load of Johan Franzen tape and work on adding toughness and net front presence to his game.

That should give him a VERY valuable NHL career. His stick skills, agility, but lack of speed...are best suited to the trapezoid for garbage goals, tip ins, and screens.

 

[TominNC]

In his defense, watching Miller play defense is traumatic.

How bad is everyone else’s defense if we keep beating them more than they beat us?

 

[haohmaru]

Curious at the lack of Goodrow buyout conversations around here. Those didn’t age all that well, eh?

 

[McRanger92]

Curious at the lack of Goodrow buyout conversations around here. Those didn’t age all that well, eh?

Might need to move Kakko to keep Goodrow. Im bored and anxious, so I'm chumming the waters

 

[LannyMcdonald]

How bad is everyone else’s defense if we keep beating them more than they beat us?

I get the instinct to stand up for our guys (esp when the board overdoes the criticism), but… the same mistake twice in the same period, leading to two goals against, earns a few nasty remarks.

 

[TominNC]

I get the instinct to stand up for our guys (esp when the board overdoes the criticism), but… the same mistake twice in the same period, leading to two goals against, earns a few nasty remarks.

I tend to defend the D in hockey. No one’s perfect but their mistakes lead to goals so they stand out. Key misses that thin stick and maybe it’s a breakout. Forward misses a wide open guy but a few inches and oh well almost. D always gets shit from everyone.

Not saying some isn’t deserved but it’s relentless and as I said, how bad is D in the league if we keep winning with all these “awful” players.

 

[SA16]

I tend to defend the D in hockey. No one’s perfect but their mistakes lead to goals so they stand out. Key misses that thin stick and maybe it’s a breakout. Forward misses a wide open guy but a few inches and oh well almost. D always gets shit from everyone.

Not saying some isn’t deserved but it’s relentless and as I said, how bad is D in the league if we keep winning with all these “awful” players.

Both of Key's turnovers on the PK were typical plays that any D would make. That's what they are taught to do. The other team made a good play to keep the puck in at the blue line and then a real good play by Reinhart to knock it down. I don't fault him for either. That being said, he absolutely could have made a stronger play on Reinhart after the failed clear.

 

[TominNC]

Both of Key's turnovers on the PK were typical plays that any D would make. That's what they are taught to do. The other team made a good play to keep the puck in at the blue line and then a real good play by Reinhart to knock it down. I don't fault him for either. That being said, he absolutely could have made a stronger play on Reinhart after the failed clear.

Fair enough. Yes he could have done more. But it’s the constant “these guys suck replace them” all the time that bothers me. The other teams have real good forwards too.

 

[mas0764]

We will have enough money when we buy out Trouba.