Speculation: Roster Building Thread Part VIII: Autumn in New York

[Hire Sather]

Kreider has turned into a top line winger and JT Miller a top 6 winger.

But no credit to AV be cause he "treated them unfairly" ?

 

[THE BIG WHISTLE]

False?

This is years and years of AV as coach. Do you remember how he treated Kreider, Hayes, Miller? He doesn't deserve credit for good players finding their way eventually, thats a normal progression, yet I'm sure some will give him tons of credit for that. Its not about one player, although it doesn't help your opinion to discuss the truth, so you'll put forth an incredibly disingenuous argument. Should I put forth the lineup of forwards who's been scratched for Tanner Glass by AV? Its a pretty good team, actually. And don't for a second think AV won't find a new Glass, it'll probably be Farnham.

I don't see how Andersson benefits from 8 minutes per game. If this guy gets a lot of playing time and he's ready for the minutes, I'm all for him staying, but given what the lineup looks to be, if both stay, it seems like Andersson goes to the fourth line. He has yet to even show he's a really good SHL player, yet you want to make him a grinder with Fast and Grabner Yeahseason? I just don't like that idea, I think its a poor way to develop his game.

I have no problem with AV when it comes to rookies. He handels them pretty well. Buch wasn't ready last year. Miller Krieder were up and down so much they needed the coaching of AV. A coach like torts would of not of gotten their full potential. And he played Hayes the perfect amount his rookie season.

 

[THE BIG WHISTLE]

Kreider has turned into a top line winger and JT Miller a top 6 winger.

But no credit to AV be cause he "treated them unfairly" ?

Every coach treats players fairly except AV...


Not really though

 

[Ola]

Deadline adds more often than not do not work well for us

...or anyone else...

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Would those players have been unsuccessful with a different coach?

It doesn't really change the situation. AV is not rookie/young player friendly. He has a big history of deferring to vets.

Is that good for Andersson this season? How much will he develop in that environment? I'd rather he play big minutes elsewhere than a grinder for AV. The kid is 18/19, we don't have to rush him when he's not even proven himself that much in the SHL. And we are talking about only like 10-20 games, anyway. What happens when Fast returns? You want Andersson sitting in the press box?

 

[NickyFotiu]

False?

This is years and years of AV as coach. Do you remember how he treated Kreider, Hayes, Miller? He doesn't deserve credit for good players finding their way eventually, thats a normal progression, yet I'm sure some will give him tons of credit for that. Its not about one player, although it doesn't help your opinion to discuss the truth, so you'll put forth an incredibly disingenuous argument. Should I put forth the lineup of forwards who's been scratched for Tanner Glass by AV? Its a pretty good team, actually. And don't for a second think AV won't find a new Glass, it'll probably be Farnham.

Without making things personal I do think your comments about AV are misguided to a large degree. Glass played a whopping 11 regular season games last season. He was only called up after the Habs tried to bully JT. Even then there were very few regular season games players were scratched for him because we had injuries and were resting players. AV had 3 rookies playing legitimate time last season. A coach that hates younger players would not have done that in my opinion.

Glass played 7 games in the playoffs for 2 reasons. First it was a physical series vs the Habs. Secondly he actually produced in some of those games. If Buch had produced more in the playoffs AV would have likely played him more.

 

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

Would those players have been unsuccessful with a different coach?

It doesn't really change the situation. AV is not rookie/young player friendly. He has a big history of deferring to vets.

Is that good for Andersson this season? How much will he develop in that environment? I'd rather he play big minutes elsewhere than a grinder for AV.

Check out my post at the end of the last page. I think you'll be surprised at how rookie-friendly he actually is.

 

[Hire Sather]

Would those players have been unsuccessful with a different coach?

It doesn't really change the situation. AV is not rookie/young player friendly. He has a big history of deferring to vets.

Is that good for Andersson this season? How much will he develop in that environment? I'd rather he play big minutes elsewhere than a grinder for AV.

Would they? I don't know. Maybe they benefited from the coach making them earn their minutes.

I have no issues with the coach not handing everything to young players. The team has done nothing but successfully bring young players along the last few years.

Who's career did AV hamper?

 

[Ola]

So if AV doesn't become the first coach ever to play a 18 y/o Czech kid in the NHL -- he treats him unfairly? (Or was Bonk the first?)

Which Swedes has played at 18? It's the ones that went top 4 and a couple of others.

 

[nyr2k2]

I mean you can't have a debate about AV's merits and abilities with a guy whose user title is "AV AND GORTON OUT". That would be like expecting a guy with the username "NASH SUCKS" to be able to have an unbiased conversation about Nash's ability. It isn't happening.

 

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

I mean you can't have a debate about AV's merits and abilities with a guy whose user title is "AV AND GORTON OUT". That would be like expecting a guy with the username "NASH SUCKS" to be able to have an unbiased conversation about Nash's ability. It isn't happening.

Hahaha. Missed that. Oh well.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Would those players have been unsuccessful with a different coach?

It doesn't really change the situation. AV is not rookie/young player friendly. He has a big history of deferring to vets.

Is that good for Andersson this season? How much will he develop in that environment? I'd rather he play big minutes elsewhere than a grinder for AV. The kid is 18/19, we don't have to rush him when he's not even proven himself that much in the SHL. And we are talking about only like 10-20 games, anyway. What happens when Fast returns? You want Andersson sitting in the press box?

How many young Rangers players do you remember AV not playing that went on to have success elsewhere?

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Without making things personal I do think your comments about AV are misguided to a large degree. Glass played a whopping 11 regular season games last season. He was only called up after the Habs tried to bully JT. Even then there were very few regular season games players were scratched for him because we had injuries and were resting players. AV had 3 rookies playing legitimate time last season. A coach that hates younger players would not have done that in my opinion.

Glass played 7 games in the playoffs for 2 reasons. First it was a physical series vs the Habs. Secondly he actually produced in some of those games. If Buch had produced more in the playoffs AV would have likely played him more.

And the season before that he scratched Hayes for Glass in a playoff game. The season before that Stempniak was traded by the team because there was no spot for him, meanwhile Glass played regularly. Stempniak scored 51 points in the next season, and 40 the season after that. Not like we could've used that player. There's a long history of this with AV. To try to act otherwise is ignoring the evidence.

Check out my post at the end of the last page. I think you'll be surprised at how rookie-friendly he actually is.

I saw your post.

I don't agree with your premise. How can we conclude how much credit AV actually deserves for good hockey players becoming good? I think its a tricky question. And I'd lean towards his actions, not the results. If he made every effort to help those players, I'd give him the benefit of the doubt, but when AV publicly calls out Miller, when he publicly calls out Hayes, is that helping them? I don't know, I'd argue he hindered them more than anything, and they figured it out eventually.

Who's career did AV hamper?

I'm not sure he did it to anyone. I just don't trust him with developing young players because whether he's hampered their careers or not, we know he has a big preference towards veterans. Whether the coach was AV or someone else, I also don't think a rookie who projects as a top 9 player should be spending any time on the fourth line with limited minutes playing with grinders who he'll have to offensively carry.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

I mean you can't have a debate about AV's merits and abilities with a guy whose user title is "AV AND GORTON OUT". That would be like expecting a guy with the username "NASH SUCKS" to be able to have an unbiased conversation about Nash's ability. It isn't happening.

You are just trying to discredit me, which is no surprise coming from you with how rude you always act.

I have an opinion, maybe you have a different opinion. If you have a dissenting opinion, does that mean there can't be a conversation with you because you have a bias in the opposite direction?

 

[Hire Sather]

So despite the fact that all of our guys have reached their potential, you don't think AV deserves credit but deserves bashing because he trusts his vets too much for your liking

Makes no sense, man.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

False?

This is years and years of AV as coach. Do you remember how he treated Kreider, Hayes, Miller? He doesn't deserve credit for good players finding their way eventually, thats a normal progression, yet I'm sure some will give him tons of credit for that. Its not about one player, although it doesn't help your opinion to discuss the truth, so you'll put forth an incredibly disingenuous argument. Should I put forth the lineup of forwards who's been scratched for Tanner Glass by AV? Its a pretty good team, actually. And don't for a second think AV won't find a new Glass, it'll probably be Farnham.

I don't see how Andersson benefits from 8 minutes per game. If this guy gets a lot of playing time and he's ready for the minutes, I'm all for him staying, but given what the lineup looks to be, if both stay, it seems like Andersson goes to the fourth line. He has yet to even show he's a really good SHL player, yet you want to make him a grinder with Fast and Grabner this season? I just don't like that idea, I think its a poor way to develop his game.

The list of NHL rookies that seamlessly found success in the NHL without being yo-yo'd throughout the lineup/roster is extraordinarily short. The list of 18 year olds? Even shorter. The list of 18 year olds not picked #1 overall? Pretty much non-existent.

You're trying to position this as a binary choice of Andersson/Chytil being ready or not. How silly.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

So despite the fact that all of our guys have reached their potential, you don't think AV deserves credit but deserves bashing because he trusts his vets too much for your liking

Makes no sense, man.

You are ignoring the process and saying what happens there is irrelevant, which it certainly isn't, and just pointing to the results when we don't know how much credit he deserves for them. And I'm pretty sure this was also a big criticism of him in Vancouver with Kassian, Hodgson, although I don't know that situation too well.

Regardless, whether AV is great or not, an 18 year old rookie should not be playing on a 4th line. Thats poor development. Unless we trade someone, I don't think there's room for both, so it looks like the lesser of the two would go back, which right now is looking like Andersson.

 

[NickyFotiu]

And the season before that he scratched Hayes for Glass in a playoff game. The season before that Stempniak was traded by the team because there was no spot for him, meanwhile Glass played regularly. Stempniak scored 51 points in the next season, and 40 the season after that. Not like we could've used that player. There's a long history of this with AV. To try to act otherwise is ignoring the evidence.

Was Hayes benched for 1 playoff game in 2016 because AV loves Glass and hates younger players? Or was Hayes benched because he was not playing well?

Stempniak has been somewhat of a journeyman. He is on his 4th team in the 2 years since he was traded by us. He was not traded because of Glass nor was he a young player. Stemp was around 31 years old and on an expiring contract so we moved him for a younger player.

Neither of your two points show AV will not play rookie players.

 

[Avery16]

Zip tweeted the same about Chytil and Andersson, but included another quote that had AV saying another few forwards (specifically Nieves) are also competing for spots. I think AV might see Chytil and Andersson on the third line and Nieves on the fourth.

 

[mrmovies779]

You are ignoring the process and saying what happens there is irrelevant, which it certainly isn't, and just pointing to the results when we don't know how much credit he deserves for them. And I'm pretty sure this was also a big criticism of him in Vancouver with Kassian, Hodgson, although I don't know that situation too well.

Regardless, whether AV is great or not, an 18 year old rookie should not be playing on a 4th line. Thats poor development. Unless we trade someone, I don't think there's room for both, so it looks like the lesser of the two would go back, which right now is looking like Andersson.

I enjoy the way you speak in fact.Like you know how to treat young players better than actual coaches do.

 

[Hire Sather]

You are ignoring the process and saying what happens there is irrelevant, which it certainly isn't, and just pointing to the results when we don't know how much credit he deserves for them. And I'm pretty sure this was also a big criticism of him in Vancouver with Kassian, Hodgson, although I don't know that situation too well.

Regardless, whether AV is great or not, an 18 year old rookie should not be playing on a 4th line. Thats poor development.

Im not ignoring the process, I'm agreeing and trusting a coach with a good track record of success.

I don't agree that it's poor development to play a rookie on the 4th line. It's not cut and dry, you can't just make that statement. It varies by player. Yes, I am also looking at results because they prove that our young players have NOT been developed poorly.

 

[Fitzy]

I suspect the other two forwards AV suggests are in competition would be Farnham and Carey. Carey seems like he is getting a real look to be the 4th line RW until Fast returns from injury.

 

[haveandare]

You are ignoring the process and saying what happens there is irrelevant, which it certainly isn't, and just pointing to the results when we don't know how much credit he deserves for them. And I'm pretty sure this was also a big criticism of him in Vancouver with Kassian, Hodgson, although I don't know that situation too well.

Regardless, whether AV is great or not, an 18 year old rookie should not be playing on a 4th line. Thats poor development. Unless we trade someone, I don't think there's room for both, so it looks like the lesser of the two would go back, which right now is looking like Andersson.

I wouldn't say the process is irrelevant, but if the question is whether or not he knows how to bring along young players, the answer is in the results.

But I agree an 18yo rookie shouldn't burn a year of his deal and miss a year of top minutes at a lower level to play NHL 4th line unless his realistic ceiling is a 3rd or 4th line player. Both Lias and Chytil have higher ceilings than that and therefore shouldn't be playing fourth line here. If they can't take the role as complimentary scorers against softer competition that our 3rd line offers, they should go back and come back next year looking ready for a top 6 spot.

 

[JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK]

I mean you can't have a debate about AV's merits and abilities with a guy whose user title is "AV AND GORTON OUT". That would be like expecting a guy with the username "NASH SUCKS" to be able to have an unbiased conversation about Nash's ability. It isn't happening.

It's funny because right before that he was praising AV against all the criticism even sporting an AV avy, but as SOON as Buch was put on the fourth line he changed it to that

 

[nyr2k2]

You are just trying to discredit me, which is no surprise coming from you with how rude you always act.

I have an opinion, maybe you have a different opinion. If you have a dissenting opinion, does that mean there can't be a conversation with you because you have a bias in the opposite direction?

Hey! I was once voted Most Helpful Moderator AND Friendliest Poster in the same year!

Everyone has their biases, I just think you're blinded by yours. Most of us can concede a point or acknowledge that a differing viewpoint has some validity. I don't think you can and it makes debates with you tedious and unrewarding.

But whatever, to each his own. Keep on keepin' on.