Roster Building Thread - Part VIII (2023-24 season)

[PuckLuck3043]

Also, some of these lines should be bad with the talent we have available and the injuries and what have you.

That second line absolutely shouldn't be. It's just a matter of the players not working well together and the team needing to recognize it.

They're in a tough spot now but when Chytil comes back and they inevitably leave Trocheck there, I'm going to scream about it until the entire website has me on ignore.

I think you are almost there anyway.

 

[Peltz]

Question - do you guys think that the Rangers are a better 5v5 team this year than last year? Or is it just that we are getting some better power play success?

When the season started, I thought they were better at even strength. But in December, it really has begun to feel like the same exact team that plays a mostly perimeter east-west style when 5v5.

Maybe I'm wrong. But Idk... I feel like this team is sort of in the same place as last year and the year before and is going to end up with a similar outcome in the playoffs. The power play is just a touch better. Faceoffs have been a hell of a lot better.

A few performers have been much better like the Trocheck line, others have been a bit worse like Fox, Miller, Shesty, and Goodrow.

Overall, I'm just not sure what to make of this team. Even though they are winning games, the season has had a different feel with all of the injuries and unknowns too.

I'm worried that special teams is covering up a lot of glaring holes that will emerge once the refs put their whistles away in the springtime.

 

[will1066]

My only problem with this is you don't draft #1 and #2 to "just be good". You get these kinds of drafts to be team leaders in all facets of the game young, so when the time comes for an actual full rebuild, you can build team around them and avoid a future where you're so far into the dark ages you're constantly trading young talent and picks to glue together a contender.

Kakko who looked to be breaking out at the end of last season is pretty much a waste of oxygen in the arena. Chytil who looked to be breaking out at the end of last season is one bad hit away from retiring before he's 26. Laf who seems to be the most improved from last season only has 4 more points than what he had last season in the same amount of games now being in the Top 6.

We've got some decent young talent in the pipeline, but man I am worried for our immediate AND long term future.

This team needs to turn over the roster across the board and aim to have a next generation of core players. It might be keeping all three of Chytil, Kakko and Lafreniere and promoting those prospects like Edstrom, Cuylle, Berard, Sykora, Rempe, etc. The organization needs to stop coveting one-dimensional players who are high end only in some aspects of the game and overall skill set. The organization needs a core of players who are well rounded at doing hockey things.

 

[ReddestRum]

Question - do you guys think that the Rangers are a better 5v5 team this year than last year? Or is it just that we are getting some better power play success?

When the season started, I thought they were better at even strength. But in December, it really has begun to feel like the same exact team that plays a mostly perimeter east-west style when 5v5.

Maybe I'm wrong. But Idk... I feel like this team is sort of in the same place as last year and the year before and is going to end up with a similar outcome in the playoffs. The power play is just a touch better. Faceoffs have been a hell of a lot better.

A few performers have been much better like the Trocheck line, others have been a bit worse like Fox, Miller, Shesty, and Goodrow.

Overall, I'm just not sure what to make of this team. Even though they are winning games, the season has had a different feel with all of the injuries and unknowns too.

I'm worried that special teams is covering up a lot of glaring holes that will emerge once the refs put their whistles away in the springtime.

2nd in the league in terms of PP.

26th in the league in terms of 5v5 goals for.

Basically, to put up a fight against us you just need to be a real disciplined team. =p

 

[Peltz]

Also, it needs to be said, if Kakko doesn't start showing some production when he comes back, he's in non-zero danger of being the surplus. That's just the reality at this point.

He's not scoring at a top 9 rate and the Rangers might just say "you know what, our 4th line guys do the 4th line stuff."

Then again, there's a non-zero chance he's the guy that goes for the acquisition.

And before people shout his age at me and tell me I can't give up on somebody his age, you know, don't shoot the messenger.

Like I said, this is the reality. He's running out of time before the Rangers consider if his future is here, for a number of reasons.

He's a cost-controlled asset with upside potential and going to be a top 6 RW. I don't think Drury deals him when we have.... *checks notes*..... one top 6 right wing on the roster right now who grew up on the left side.

 

[DanielBrassard]

Yeah it’s interesting why they are getting outscored 2 seasons now. This year the on-ice numbers look great for them but they just don’t convert despite dominating zone time

Part of the problem is Trocheck is not a good finisher, never has been at the NHL level, and I don't think that line is particularly good enough defensively either. So while Panarin is creating a lot of chances the puck is not going in the net as often as it should. Lafreniere also hasn't been scoring either.

 

[DanielBrassard]

Question - do you guys think that the Rangers are a better 5v5 team this year than last year? Or is it just that we are getting some better power play success?

When the season started, I thought they were better at even strength. But in December, it really has begun to feel like the same exact team that plays a mostly perimeter east-west style when 5v5.

Maybe I'm wrong. But Idk... I feel like this team is sort of in the same place as last year and the year before and is going to end up with a similar outcome in the playoffs. The power play is just a touch better. Faceoffs have been a hell of a lot better.

A few performers have been much better like the Trocheck line, others have been a bit worse like Fox, Miller, Shesty, and Goodrow.

Overall, I'm just not sure what to make of this team. Even though they are winning games, the season has had a different feel with all of the injuries and unknowns too.

I'm worried that special teams is covering up a lot of glaring holes that will emerge once the refs put their whistles away in the springtime.

They have basically had the same results as last season at 5v5 which is middle of the road, but the difference is last seasons team had a healthy Chytil and Kakko who are at the very least pretty good 5v5 at controlling play. So it's not a perfect comparison. On the other hand Gustafsson is a huge upgrade on the 3rd pair LD we had last season. I'd like to see how this team looks if we have a healthy lineup.

 

[Machinehead]

He's a cost-controlled asset with upside potential and going to be a top 6 RW. I don't think Drury deals him when we have.... *checks notes*..... one top 6 right wing on the roster right now who grew up on the left side.

I mean, we went over the lineup following the deadline, and I'm sure they'll get somebody at the deadline. The question was "who sits?"

It seems obvious to me that either Goodrow or Kakko sits. There's a good chance the Rangers play the "role" card with Goodrow and even if they don't, which of these goes on the 4th line to accommodate Kakko?

Kreider-Zibanejad-Wheeler
Panarin-Trocheck-Lafreniere
Cuylle-Chytil-New Guy

It won't be the new guy. Maybe Cuylle gets bumped down depending on how the position breaks down? It could go a number of ways. Point is, there's a non-zero chance Kakko is surplus to the lineup come March. Hell, even Cuylle has 6 goals. Kakko is right on the borderline of our top 9 forwards when healthy. Again, that just is what it is. If he is losing his spot, it doesn't seem wise to let him rot on the vine.

 

[Machinehead]

They have basically had the same results as last season at 5v5 which is middle of the road, but the difference is last seasons team had a healthy Chytil and Kakko who are at the very least pretty good 5v5 at controlling play. So it's not a perfect comparison. On the other hand Gustafsson is a huge upgrade on the 3rd pair LD we had last season. I'd like to see how this team looks if we have a healthy lineup.

Here's a crazy idea about Kakko.

They say homeruns kill rallies. It's all about getting on base and this and that. Once you hit the homerun, all the little things you've done right up until that point are completed.

Once you a score a goal, the good shift you were having is over. Not ending good shifts by scoring, it would stand to reason, increases the length and quantity of good shifts.

Now grated, Kakko can have good shifts, which a lot of guys in this league can't whether they're scoring or not. That counts for something.

Still, I can't help but start to feel like Kakko's 5v5 play driving is slightly boosted by the fact that the Rangers need a 40 x 60 net and military-grade weaponry to score when he's on the ice. That's a lot of extra minutes we have the puck taking nothing corsi's while the other team doesn't.

Nothing about his inability to control the puck or get to good areas suggests to me he's the type of player to actually make inroads 5v5.

 

[DanielBrassard]

Here's a crazy idea about Kakko.

They say homeruns kill rallies. It's all about getting on base and this and that. Once you hit the homerun, all the little things you've done right up until that point are completed.

Once you a score a goal, the good shift you were having is over. Not ending good shifts by scoring, it would stand to reason, increases the length and quantity of good shifts.

Now grated, Kakko can have good shifts, which a lot of guys in this league can't whether they're scoring or not. That counts for something.

Still, I can't help but start to feel like Kakko's 5v5 play driving is slightly boosted by the fact that the Rangers need a 40 x 60 net and military-grade weaponry to score when he's on the ice. That's a lot of extra minutes we have the puck taking nothing corsi's while the other team doesn't.

Nothing about his inability to control the puck or get to good areas suggests to me he's the type of player to actually make inroads 5v5.

That is an interesting theory and it aligns with the fact that Kakko'a impacts are basically average in terms of generating offense but above average is suppressing chances and shots. But that's obviously an improvement over a guy who gets caved in all the time in a checking line role who doesn't have the talent to make up for that. I agree I don't think he is a particularly good offensive player. If you look at microstats he grades out below average there as well.

 

[Machinehead]

That is an interesting theory and it aligns with the fact that Kakko'a impacts are basically average in terms of generating offense but above average is suppressing chances and shots. But that's obviously an improvement over a guy who gets caved in all the time in a checking line role who doesn't have the talent to make up for that. I agree I don't think he is a particularly good offensive player. If you look at microstats he grades out below average there as well.

Right, but I would much rather have him in a checking role than a guy who blocks 8 shots a game because he's giving up 24 a game. The other team is also not doing anything while Kakko is not doing anything, and that counts.

Then that's a whole rabbit hole of people screaming at me about looking at charts, and then the question also becomes if you want Kakko in that role versus his value as a trade chip.

I still think GM's around the league will see something in him and it just makes sense in a lot of the deadline scenarios we discuss. We have finite spots in the lineup.

 

[80shockeywasbuns]

Look, I got no personal beef with you, as I can laugh at funny stuff you post. To me, you have a penchant for zeroing in on Bonino for all our ails.

I don’t have beef with you or anyone here. I like this forum and the vibes are really good compared to anywhere else you can talk NYR with people. It reminds me of Blueshirtbanter before it mysteriously disappeared like Al Trautwig.

I don’t mean to come across as thinking that Bonino is the root of all problems. I just think that scratching at least one of Bonino/Goodrow is the easiest change for the team to make that would make a difference in the teams play. I don’t think most people realize how concerning it is that they’re this willing to play those two guys on different lines. It’s really hard to get 3 lines going at once, this setup basically guarantees that 2 of them won’t be. And we’ve seen what happens when they’re together on the same line, it’s Chernobyl. One has to sit

 

[ReddestRum]

Advanced stat posters vs the galactically confused (which means me)

 

[duhmetreE]

Question - do you guys think that the Rangers are a better 5v5 team this year than last year? Or is it just that we are getting some better power play success?

When the season started, I thought they were better at even strength. But in December, it really has begun to feel like the same exact team that plays a mostly perimeter east-west style when 5v5.

Maybe I'm wrong. But Idk... I feel like this team is sort of in the same place as last year and the year before and is going to end up with a similar outcome in the playoffs. The power play is just a touch better. Faceoffs have been a hell of a lot better.

A few performers have been much better like the Trocheck line, others have been a bit worse like Fox, Miller, Shesty, and Goodrow.

Overall, I'm just not sure what to make of this team. Even though they are winning games, the season has had a different feel with all of the injuries and unknowns too.

I'm worried that special teams is covering up a lot of glaring holes that will emerge once the refs put their whistles away in the springtime.

bad habits keep creeping in.

East/West at the blue line kills me. If they just eliminate that, so many GA would be erased

Forced east/west passes down low when they KNOW it's not going to get through the passing lane. I've said it before, a shot-pass off the goalie pads can work just as well if there's no passing lane. The objective is to get the puck across... This team never, and I really mean never, shoots for rebounds.

Our finishing is suspect.

We have Nick Bonino in the top9. Zibs only now has gotten going. Fox is still MIA

I think we have a lot more potential. Bad habits have crept back in. Hopefully we look like a better version in the back half of the regular season. That includes better player movement in the O-Zone. Much better NZ play. Better gap control. Attacking the slot.... on offense and defense ( not losing guys like AM34 in the slot seems like a good idea )

Our foundation is special teams and goaltending ( ironically led by Quick and not Shesty this year ) We build off of that. We've been better than previous seasons 5v5. We still have room for continued improvement and I'd suspect it will come.

 

[Machinehead]

Advanced stat posters vs the galactically confused (which means me)

It really is simpler than you would think.

Most of it is just even strength shot and goal differential. You see how a guy does there and then you think about how that matches the common sense answer.

Like, Mika Zibanejad. He is a lot better than the replacement level player analytics suggest he is. Like, sorry, but he is. Look at him. So like, it's not that the eye test and the obvious can't be used.

I do like when we put players on the ice, and when they're on the ice, the Rangers score more than the opponent. When that repeatedly does not happen, I become cross at those players.

 

[Blue Blooded]

When fully healthy just try a shutdown line of Vesey-Trocheck-Kakko and see if it works. Having a line that guarantees nothing happens is very useful. Cuylle and spare parts (Goodrow/Pitlick/Bonino/Brodz) can play 6 min in the playoffs and hope they don't destroy us.

If Wheeler can figure out how to keep driving goals and stop bleeding high danger chances against with Kreider and Zibanejad we could ice a good and balanced top 9.

 

[Mandar]

Half this board would dress the 6th WR instead of the long snapper.

Stop numbering wide receivers

 

[80shockeywasbuns]

Half this board would dress the 6th WR instead of the long snapper.

Joe Douglas would draft a long snapper to play WR

 

[kovazub94]

I'm sorry to say, but it is actually a very big f***ing deal that we have two lines that aren't capable of doing basically anything.

Everyone has a 4th line. We have two lines that can't do a single thing besides PK. I understand health is an issue, but the Rangers not only have to get healthy, they have to have another plan in place for the playoffs because injuries will happen again and this is not it.

If Bonino is in the top 9 at the very first sign of an injury, book your tee times.

Can we accept it as an axiom that with Chytil and Kakko out any combination of Brodzinski, Bonino, Cuylle, Goodrow, Pitlick and Vesey will be for the most part futile? (And maybe Vesey - Goodrow - Pitlick combo is the most efficient even if you don’t think it means much). The point is it’s futile to discuss iterations. I think Laviolette understands this. And I think he’d want one more functional (3rd) line once Chytil and Kakko are back. Who’s going to be the 3rd there? For now Cuylle is the default option but he’s a rookie and so his varsity curtain could be drawn if his play level falls even a bit. Who’s next? Would it be Goodrow since his C ability could help Chytil? Vesey as the best from the rest which is not saying much, Pitlick, Brodzinski? Pretty sure it won’t be Bonino if we go the stated premise that Laviolette will accept only one futile line.

 

[huerter]

Auston Matthews said we have 4 lines that play in your face and up tempo. Stay cised.

 

[kovazub94]

When fully healthy just try a shutdown line of Vesey-Trocheck-Kakko and see if it works. Having a line that guarantees nothing happens is very useful. Cuylle and spare parts (Goodrow/Pitlick/Bonino/Brodz) can play 6 min in the playoffs and hope they don't destroy us.

If Wheeler can figure out how to keep driving goals and stop bleeding high danger chances against with Kreider and Zibanejad we could ice a good and balanced top 9.

Vesey - Trocheck - Kakko is not the worst idea. Goodrow and Bonino willl be on the 4th line with whoever left over. Analytical and eye test nightmare at ES but their specialty roles keep them in. Pitlick and Brodzinski are clearly first candidates to sit and they’re also very obvious 13 and 14 depth wise.

 

[MyLoveIsBlue]

 

[LOFIN]

I still think GM's around the league will see something in him and it just makes sense in a lot of the deadline scenarios we discuss. We have finite spots in the lineup.

If he's part of a package, sure. But I don't see him being traded as the main piece, and if he is and we return a gritty bottom-6 forward, I don't think that's smart asset management. His value is really at an all time low with the slow start and injury. Trading him away just to make cap space would be foolish IMO.

 

[ncdoc]

So glad all you guys can outcoach Lav. I don't know what I would do without this forum...

 

[80shockeywasbuns]

If he's part of a package, sure. But I don't see him being traded as the main piece, and if he is and we return a gritty bottom-6 forward, I don't think that's smart asset management. His value is really at an all time low with the slow start and injury. Trading him away just to make cap space would be foolish IMO.