Roster Building Thread: Part VII (2023-24)

[GoAwayPanarin]

Yeah, if only Kreider played more like a 100-point player who's probably a top 5 player in the world. I agree that this would be nice.

It's the skill side that prevents it from happening. He's just not as good as you want him to be and after 13 years, that's on you for ridiculous expectations.

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[leetch99]

I

Yeah, if only Kreider played more like a 100-point player who's probably a top 5 player in the world. I agree that this would be nice.

It's the skill side that prevents it from happening. He's just not as good as you want him to be and after 13 years, that's on you for ridiculous expectation.

LOL...just to set you straight ...... It was the physical skills that I was talking about that are vastly under utilized . I don't believe I mentioned a thing about playoff offensive production ? Sorry for confusing you so this early in the day .

 

[Machinehead]

I

It's absolutely about offensive production.

Take the production away and Matthew Tkachuk is Brendan Lemieux. Opponents would just laugh at him if he couldn't produce.

I don't hear anybody saying "I wish Kreider was Trent Frederic," or "be nice if Kreider played more like Marcus Foligno."

Of course the perception of Matthew Tkachuk's overall effectiveness is tied to the fact that he's a 100 point player.

Who are you trying to kid?

"Set me straight." Set yourself straight and stop lying to yourself.

 

[GAGLine]

He's great at the CHL level. Jimmy Vesey would be too if you dropped him in the CHL now.

It's still a huge jump unless you're somebody like McDavid or Bedard. He's been in the NHL three years and hasn't really shown any skill in the NHL.

I understand the argument of building up confidence on the powerplay, but he doesn't score on the powerplay as we've established. What sort of confidence is that going to build?

Most of his PP time has been on the 2nd unit, and we know how that unit was deployed for most of GG's time here. No one who played consistently on that PP got a lot of points. I'm not saying we should just hand him a spot on PP1 and let him leech points, but we need to at least give him a legitimate chance there to show what he can do.

Panarin, Kreider, Zib and Fox are locks for PP1, so maybe we rotate that 5th spot with the kids until one of them clicks. Maybe we also even out the time between PP1 and PP2 more, actually starting PP2 on occasion.

At some point he has to either sink or swim. I think it's time to throw him into the deep end and see what happens.

 

[Machinehead]

Most of his PP time has been on the 2nd unit, and we know how that unit was deployed for most of GG's time here. No one who played consistently on that PP got a lot of points. I'm not saying we should just hand him a spot on PP1 and let him leech points, but we need to at least give him a legitimate chance there to show what he can do.

Panarin, Kreider, Zib and Fox are locks for PP1, so maybe we rotate that 5th spot with the kids until one of them clicks. Maybe we also even out the time between PP1 and PP2 more, actually starting PP2 on occasion.

At some point he has to either sink or swim. I think it's time to throw him into the deep end and see what happens.

If we're going to do that, Kakko deserves that chance way more. He was actually good on the powerplay the one year he got minutes.

 

[leetch99]

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How much of that hefty honor do you attribute to his physical style of play ? He is one heck of a complete player for sure . How many times did Kreider chase/hit /facepalm Hughes and crew in the playoffs to put a bit of fear in them ? It might seem like a small thing.....but some push back goes a long ways at times . Kreider is a guy that has that if he wanted to utilize it & be twice the player he already is .

 

[TGWL]

How much of that hefty honor do you attribute to his physical style of play ? He is one heck of a complete player for sure . How many times did Kreider chase/hit /facepalm Hughes and crew in the playoffs to put a bit of fear in them ? It might seem like a small thing.....but some push back goes a long ways at times . Kreider is a guy that has that if he wanted to utilize it & be twice the player he already is .

It's not push back. You want Kreider to be a completely different player. Your expectation seems to be, "Big. Strong. Fast. Why doesn't he bully other teams?" It's not "if he wanted to utilize it". That's not him. That's not how he plays. That's never how he played. Nobody suddenly plays that way because they look in the mirror and want to. You're wishing he was a different player and that's fair, but those expectations aren't going to be met.

 

[Machinehead]

When Kreider is on the ice, our opponents all pretty consistently suck.

That's exactly what "push back" is supposed to do.

 

[leetch99]

It's absolutely about offensive production.

Take the production away and Matthew Tkachuk is Brendan Lemieux. Opponents would just laugh at him if he couldn't produce.

I don't hear anybody saying "I wish Kreider was Trent Frederic," or "be nice if Kreider played more like Marcus Foligno."

Of course the perception of Matthew Tkachuk's overall effectiveness is tied to the fact that he's a 100 point player.

Who are you trying to kid?

"Set me straight." Set yourself straight and stop lying to yourself.

Yes.....you are right again....give yourself another back pat .

 

[Machinehead]

Yes.....you are right again....give yourself another back pat .

Of course I'm right again. I'm presenting a freezing cold take.

Here's the list of players that do what you're describing and are also better hockey players than Chris Kreider:

> Tkachuk, Matthew

End of list.

This entire conversation is "I wish we had Matthew Tkachuk." So does everyone else.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

How much of that hefty honor do you attribute to his physical style of play ? He is one heck of a complete player for sure . How many times did Kreider chase/hit /facepalm Hughes and crew in the playoffs to put a bit of fear in them ? It might seem like a small thing.....but some push back goes a long ways at times . Kreider is a guy that has that if he wanted to utilize it & be twice the player he already is .

It's part of it but like @Machinehead said, take away the production and he's Brendan Lemieux.

I don't really think Tkachuk is really the guy you think he is either. He's more of a Troll than someone you fear. Being annoying and pissing people off has its value, but he isn't really a killer out there.

If you want to start a discussion about how the Rangers didn't do enough to make the Devils uncomfortable in their series? I think thats a valid conversation to have but to hold it against Kreider is pretty unfair, especially considering that he was quite literally the only forward who was GOOD in that series.

 

[leetch99]

.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Did we sign any college UFA's?

No. Brandon Scanlin and Bobby Trivigno were the last ones.

 

[I Eat Crow]

Nope

It would have been announced if they did. I doubt they will.

Shame. Think Mastrosimone and O'Brien were worth a flyer on.

 

[nsvoyageurs]

How much of that hefty honor do you attribute to his physical style of play ? He is one heck of a complete player for sure . How many times did Kreider chase/hit /facepalm Hughes and crew in the playoffs to put a bit of fear in them ? It might seem like a small thing.....but some push back goes a long ways at times . Kreider is a guy that has that if he wanted to utilize it & be twice the player he already is .

A little shot here/there and push back can go a long way to open up space for you. You can do this subteltly without getting penalties. Make opponents have a little bit of fear of you; a little bit of respect.

 

[Mac n Gs]

Shame. Think Mastrosimone and O'Brien were worth a flyer on.

Mastrosimone signed an AHL deal with the Marlies, and O’Brien hasn’t signed yet. I’d imagine he’d get signed soon

 

[I Eat Crow]

Mastrosimone signed an AHL deal with the Marlies, and O’Brien hasn’t signed yet. I’d imagine he’d get signed soon

Hmm, weird pick for him. Long Island kid that I'd figure would sign locally.

 

[Mac n Gs]

Hmm, weird pick for him. Long Island kid that I'd figure would sign locally.

Agreed, and if I had to guess, Shane Doan probably convinced him that Toronto would be a good spot for him to get his first year of pro experience. I’d imagine he gets NHL games in somewhere during his career

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

When Kreider is on the ice, our opponents all pretty consistently suck.

That's exactly what "push back" is supposed to do.

Because Kreider, despite the stereotypes about him, is a high-IQ player and is the main reason he’s successful. Size and speed are secondary.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

Good point. The way some people get worked up, you’d think they had real skin in the game.

It’s just entertainment.

You can repeat this rational take to yourself a hundred times, and I definitely have in moments of Rongo-induced despair, but there’s something about sports and supporting a team that triggers a completely irrational portion of your brain that can’t be explained away.

 

[Fitzy]

It's absolutely about offensive production.

Take the production away and Matthew Tkachuk is Brendan Lemieux. Opponents would just laugh at him if he couldn't produce.

I don't hear anybody saying "I wish Kreider was Trent Frederic," or "be nice if Kreider played more like Marcus Foligno."

Of course the perception of Matthew Tkachuk's overall effectiveness is tied to the fact that he's a 100 point player.

Who are you trying to kid?

"Set me straight." Set yourself straight and stop lying to yourself.

It's tough to know empirically how much agitation matters after you control for ability.

In particular because there is an entertainment factor to your team having agitators. People enjoy watching chicanery and gamesmanship when their guys do it and loathe when someone on the other side does. Because it elicits a gut emotional reaction it's always going to be difficult to disentangle what it actually accomplishes versus the public's perception of it.

Frankly, penalties drawn/versus taken is probably a much more reliable metric of 'agitation' and it also includes a bunch of other latent factors in it.

 

[TominNC]

Is it worse than rearranging everything for a guy whose accomplished nothing at the NHL level simply because of his draft slot?

One may get better. The other will get worse.

 

[effen]

I don't think Kreider needs to completely change how he plays to be someone he's not but it's not a huge ask to facewash Hughes or whoever randomly every so often in front of the net.

That said, there's pluses and minuses to how he plays - he gets no abuse after the whistle ever, and I do mean ever for a reason. And that's pretty unique for net front play.

 

[NYR Viper]

Let's ask the question though, if Kreider were to muck it up more, who on his line is coming to join in on the fun? Zibanejad?

 

[Synergy27]

One may get better. The other will get worse.

It’s kind of crazy that you have to write that out so people can understand it.