Speculation: Roster Building Thread Part IX: Can't take Staal away from AV

[Alluckks]

Take your logical method of rebuilding elsewhere. This is HF.

You clearly don't understand rebuilds, everything needs to be traded for lottery tickets

 

[Edge]

Forget picks, try to get back NHL ready prospects

But, but, but, but....how are we supposed to project them as 30 goal, 70 point forwards or top pairing defensemen?

You're no fun!

 

[Mikos87]

Vesey was basically one of the only players to show up in the Sens series..and helped his team win the NCAA championship, you don't win with players like him?

And he was the safety valve with Miller and Johnny Hockey at the U20s... But even then.. I don't see a guy that shows up night in and night out...

I see a very mercurial player with some nice flashes here and there.

 

[Mikos87]

Yes I understand what you’re saying but I think you’re drastically overestimating the effect this would have all of a sudden.

All of a sudden? Yes.. When the entire division shifts to it.

 

[Ola]

And he was the safety valve with Miller and Johnny Hockey at the U20s... But even then.. I don't see a guy that shows up night in and night out...

I see a very mercurial player with some nice flashes here and there.

The problem IMO with Vesey is environment, like when we are a bit flat and lifeless he is more of the same. Better balance on the roster and he would look a lot better.

 

[Mikos87]

I get what he means. It's guys who step it up in the clutch. Score big goals at big times. Not every player can be "the guy" but if placed in the right role, they're perfect. Kessel as a main guy didn't work, but playing 3rd/4th on the pecking order it did.

Look at guys like Bobby Carpenter as a checker on Boston and NJ. Also guys like Tikkanen, Claude Lemiuex, and later Drury who saved their best for the playoffs.

If Lias Anderson is nothing more than a 2nd/3rd line tweener center regular season fine, but if he shows up i the playoffs, scores some OT goals, and shutsdown the opposing teams stars, that's a player you win with.

Bingo.

Its all about slotting guys in the right slot.

That's what got depth does.. Smart team building is all about that.

Would PIT win without Murray? I don't think so. Its all about having guys in their right places.

 

[The Crypto Guy]

And he was the safety valve with Miller and Johnny Hockey at the U20s... But even then.. I don't see a guy that shows up night in and night out...

I see a very mercurial player with some nice flashes here and there.

Alright, we'll aside from cream of the crop when it comes to top rookies, I don't see many of them showing up night in and night out...Buchnevich has yet to show that, Kreider has yet to show that, why were they left off? If these players showed up every night, especially Kreider, they would be superstars int he league. It's just unrealistic to expect a rookie to have a good game every game..rookies are widely inconsistent, and frankly, pretty silly to use that as a reason why "You don't win with players like them".

 

[NYR]

Brooks is the only one I read because we share the same mindset for the most part but my first and only question is why we're the "Kevin's" even sharing the same ice as Panarin?
My point being that good coaching and a system with structure is paramount.
After that you need the personnel to execute.
Neither of which exist and that falls on JG and AV plain and simple.
These two knuckleheads need to be shown the door in a big way IMO..

 

[Mikos87]

Alright, we'll aside from cream of the crop when it comes to top rookies, I don't see many of them showing up night in and night out...Buchnevich has yet to show that, Kreider has yet to show that, why were they left off? If these players showed up every night, especially Kreider, they would be superstars int he league. It's just unrealistic to expect a rookie to have a good game every game..rookies are widely inconsistent, and frankly, pretty silly to use that as a reason why "You don't win with players like them".

One word: replaceability. Jimmy doesn't have the skills the others do... Plus Chris... Who I've been critical of... Is more proven.

I'm pretty sick of this group of happy go luckky middle Sixer's.

I wouldn't take it as far as saying they're conspiring like Brooksie... Just that they've nestled in.

I've seen a bunch of scrubs conspire in their profession and I couldn't find that palatable by any stretch of the imagination... f***ing disgusting... Reserved for the lowest of the low... Trash beyond salvage... Absolute garbage that doesn't deserve a seat in respectably society.

This group... They're too comfy.. Too complacent... And missing leadership in the room.

A real coach would strip Nash and Staal of their As. So a change in leadership is needed.

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

Gorton is the best GM for this job

He is cleaning up Sather’s mess of a roster, and doing a fantastic job at it

 

[The Crypto Guy]

One word: replaceability. Jimmy doesn't have the skills the others do... Plus Chris... Who I've been critical of... Is more proven.

I'm pretty sick of this group of happy go luckky middle Sixer's.

I wouldn't take it as far as saying they're conspiring like Brooksie... Just that they've nestled in.

I've seen a bunch of scrubs conspire in their profession and I couldn't find that palatable by any stretch of the imagination... ****ing disgusting.

This group... They're too comfy.. Too complacent... And missing leadership in the room.

A real coach would strip Nash and Staal of their As.

Who are we replacing him with? We have nobody in the AHL ready to take Vesey's spot and he's getting paid peanuts compared to finding someone on the UFA market.

But I have to bring up, why are we all of a sudden getting rid of Vesey in his 2nd NHL season after he showed decent potential for a 2nd-3rd liner? In 2 years if he still putting up 30 points, sure i'm all for looking for his replacement.

Vesey is hardly the problem with this team at the moment. Like you said, coaching and leadership is much higher on that list of problems.

 

[Mikos87]

Who are we replacing him with? We have nobody in the AHL ready to take Vesey's spot and he's getting paid peanuts compared to finding someone on the UFA market.

But I have to bring up, why are we all of a sudden getting rid of Vesey in his 2nd NHL season after he showed decent potential for a 2nd-3rd liner? In 2 years if he still putting up 30 points, sure i'm all for looking for his replacement.

Vesey is hardly the problem with this team at the moment. Like you said, coaching and leadership is much higher on that list of problems.

So my trade list as of now is as follows:

Hayes
Vesey
Nash
Grabs
Holden
Staal


That's three rentals, which are picks and prospects.. Teams don't typically trade roster players at the deadline.

One bad contract.

Two young assets in need of contracts.

So let's start with the rentals... Which you convert to currency... Drafts picks... Say you get a 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and two ready made prospects. One middle sixer. And one 4th liner.

With Staal.. You eat some cash value.. And take on a bad contract that may fill a need. Tough to find an apples to apples.. But let's say that's Dustin Brown.

You can then take Hayes and Vesey (who'd combine for $6M on extensions)... Package an added pick and pick up a change of scenery player (Galchenyuk plus another player)...

You replace Vesey with a piece from the Nash deal.. Upgrade Hayes into Gally and pick up another piece... Say another 4th liner.

 

[Mac n Gs]

Brooks is the only one I read because we share the same mindset for the most part but my first and only question is why we're the "Kevin's" even sharing the same ice as Panarin?
My point being that good coaching and a system with structure is paramount.
After that you need the personnel to execute.
Neither of which exist and that falls on JG and AV plain and simple.
These two knuckleheads need to be shown the door in a big way IMO..

Brother, you’re talking about the same coach that matched up Holden-Kampfer against Tarasenko. Hayes is a defensive blackhole and I said all offseason we should ship him out while his value is high.

 

[trilobyte]

Trilo- I also think it’s a bit of a personal issue. Guys like Lindberg and Fast always worked their buts off under AV too. Zucc. On the roster we have now, who is that show up every shift type of player? Kreider? Nope. Ziba? Nope. Buch? Nope. Desharnais? Nope. Nash? Nope. Hayes? Nope. Grabner? Nope. Cary? Nope. Vesey? Nope. Miller? A bit but not really. Zucc? Yeah, more or less the only one.

A group shouldn’t be too homogeneous, our is right now and especially after losing Lindberg and with Fast injured.

I definitely think a Sutter could light a fire under guys like Kreider and co for a shorter stint. But I think it’s time to acknowledge that we need more spark in the lineup.

I agree with your remark about 'homogenous'. It never should be that way, in that you never should have too many players of the same personality type. It doesn't meet the way players are measured and quantified, but players need to get angry with losing. We already know much about what kind of skillset they have.
A coach cannot instill competitiveness in a player. I trust that most are acquainted with that or they would not be here. Somebody has to hold a burning flame to their nether regions. That could be another player, not a coach. I usually stay quiet about it in order to not become a broken record, but the whole team seems to be not drawing on their best qualities. In other words, they are better than this.
Edit: damn, third time I have edited this. In short, I agree with you and always have believed players need to drive themselves.

 

[NYR]

Brother, you’re talking about the same coach that matched up Holden-Kampfer against Tarasenko. Hayes is a defensive blackhole and I said all offseason we should ship him out while his value is high.

Agreed and I've been saying the same thing about Hayes since last pre-season

Miller is this teams 2nd line center as currently constructed and maybe even 1st if he has Zuuca and Nash on his wings IMO.

 

[Mac n Gs]

Agreed and I've been saying the same thing about Hayes since last pre-season

Miller is this teams 2nd line center as currently constructed and maybe even 1st if he has Zuuca and Nash on his wings IMO.

Absolutely. Be careful though, with all of that logic and reasoning you just might start referencing corsi and xG

 

[Avery16]

So my trade list as of now is as follows:

Hayes
Vesey
Nash
Grabs
Holden
Staal

Would take Hayes and Vesey off this and add Smith. Look to bring up Bereglazov, Pionk, Lettieri, Nieves sooner rather than later

Not against trading Hayes, but should get a substantial return. Big body, put up almost 50 points last season and he is only 25. He could develop into a 2C for someone if not us. If he continues to struggle this season, it also serves to lower his ask on the next contract. Vesey should be in for a substantial pay cut from his bonus inflated salary.

 

[NYR]

Absolutely. Be careful though, with all of that logic and reasoning you just might start referencing corsi and xG

Not a chance buddy. My eye balls work just fine lol.

The great Wayne Gretzky, while he was young, used to take a pen and paper and while watching a game he'd trace every where the puck went and at the end of the game he'd analyze the paper and strong parts of the ice.

Absolutely brilliant!
And while it's "simple" it helped create the best player to ever play the game.

That's the type of old school analysis approach I try to incorporate into my game experiences.

I do remember taking quite a beating after suggesting Hayes be gone though LOL

 

[mike14]

Not a chance buddy. My eye balls work just fine lol.

The great Wayne Gretzky, while he was young, used to take a pen and paper and while watching a game he'd trace every where the puck went and at the end of the game he'd analyze the paper and strong parts of the ice.

Absolutely brilliant!
And while it's "simple" it helped create the best player to ever play the game.

That's the type of old school analysis approach I try to incorporate into my game experiences.

I do remember taking quite a beating after suggesting Hayes be gone though LOL

So you're saying that instead of Gretzky just watching and going "hmm, looks like the puck goes to the corner a lot", he utilised something to actually track where the puck went to confirm it..?

 

[Machinehead]

Crazy idea: go back to McDonagh-Shattenkirk and Skjei-Smith like we f***ing planned, and give it a real look - give it ten f***ing games. Then let's see where we're at, instead of abandoning the entire off-season plan in game 2 because we had one bad game in Toronto, and trying to make determinations based on -not to mention trying to win with- D pairs that are changing literally shift to shift.

 

[NYR]

So you're saying that instead of Gretzky just watching and going "hmm, looks like the puck goes to the corner a lot", he utilised something to actually track where the puck went to confirm it..?

Yes!
It's called his eyes and his brain!

 

[Avery16]

Im sure they try Smith in any number of combinations during practices, and he's already back in the lineup. The point is, he hasn't performed anywhere close to expectations, his contract isn't good for us, and his value will only decrease. If he's going to play third pair, we've got some kids that are more deserving and make more economic and developmental sense. If there is a trade list, he should be on it.

 

[NYR94]

Crazy idea: go back to McDonagh-Shattenkirk and Skjei-Smith like we ****ing planned, and give it a real look - give it ten ****ing games. Then let's see where we're at, instead of abandoning the entire off-season plan in game 2 because we had one bad game in Toronto, and trying to make determinations based on -not to mention trying to win with- D pairs that are changing literally shift to shift.

Agreed. How many partners has McDonagh had so far? 4, 5? We thought being freed from Girardi would be the end of his problems. They need some stability on the back end and sticking with the pairs for more than one game would help.

 

[mike14]

UFAs you certainly try to offload:
Nash
Grabner
DD
Carey (unlikely)
Cracknell (unlikely)
Holden
Pavelec (if there's a market)

Then you've got Miller, Vesey and Hayes as RFAs. If things continue as they are it wouldn't surprise me to see at least one of them moved (I'd keep Miller)

 

[NYR]

Crazy idea: go back to McDonagh-Shattenkirk and Skjei-Smith like we ****ing planned, and give it a real look - give it ten ****ing games. Then let's see where we're at, instead of abandoning the entire off-season plan in game 2 because we had one bad game in Toronto, and trying to make determinations based on -not to mention trying to win with- D pairs that are changing literally shift to shift.

What are you smoking man?
They couldn't even handle 2 games nevermind 10..
The plan was stupid before the season even started and now it's reached levels of complete incompetence SMH.