Speculation: Roster Building Thread Part IX: Can't take Staal away from AV
- Thread starter Gardner McKay
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As for Butcher, put our money on Bereglazov, ADA and Smith being locks this season in their respective pairings and it was a bad gamble. Maybe we also thought Kerfoot wouldn’t be as valuable, with Andersson and Chytil pushing. Another bad bet, if so.
GregSirico
KakkoSZN
I really like the idea of Sutter. He's the one guy I would be OK with them going after. But I'd like him to have complete autonomy and build the team his way. One thing he does more than a lot of coaches is getting the most out of his players. It's pretty genius actually. Everything he does has a purpose.
You can't trade all the players for picks but a combo of both is what you need. Identify guys you can win with, keep them. Trade the elders, trade the low character guys who show up when they feel like it.
Hayes, Vesey.. Not guys you win with imo.. Use them in a package for a real deal center.
Grabs.. Awesome rental. 3rd/Grinder
Holden.. Good rental.. 2nd/ play him drive his value up.
Nash... Move him.. Get an NHL ready prospect and high picks.
Staalsie... Trade at 50%.
Pavs.. Hope that a goalie gets injured and move him to a team that needs him.
DD.. Get a 3rd out of him.
Stockpile your currency in the form of picks. Trade your loser young players for a team that needs them.
Hayes, Vesey for RH shots... That's a reasonable start to a package.
Clear more cap space and then bring in player to fill roles.
More RH shots.
I'd you're going to gut the team make sure you make a cultural change. Keep the guys with the will to win..
If you look at what Minnesota did when they stock piled 2010 draft class picks.. That's what the Rangers need to do with 2013 players on.
Hayes, Vesey.. Not guys you win with imo.. Use them in a package for a real deal center.
Grabs.. Awesome rental. 3rd/Grinder
Holden.. Good rental.. 2nd/ play him drive his value up.
Nash... Move him.. Get an NHL ready prospect and high picks.
Staalsie... Trade at 50%.
Pavs.. Hope that a goalie gets injured and move him to a team that needs him.
DD.. Get a 3rd out of him.
Stockpile your currency in the form of picks. Trade your loser young players for a team that needs them.
Hayes, Vesey for RH shots... That's a reasonable start to a package.
Clear more cap space and then bring in player to fill roles.
More RH shots.
I'd you're going to gut the team make sure you make a cultural change. Keep the guys with the will to win..
If you look at what Minnesota did when they stock piled 2010 draft class picks.. That's what the Rangers need to do with 2013 players on.
HFsNumber1Heel
FKA Roo Returns...Still A Contrarian Apparently
Despite the jokes about "Stone Age Hockey" or not enough high end skill, we've had some awesome hockey since 05-06 and the team has been fun. They've also been incredibly lucky at least three of those seasons 06-07, 08-09, and especially 10-11 (thanks to the Bolts) to make the playoffs. Eventually the luck would run out and it just may be this year. Team is just very unlucky now.
The bright spot is that not only Dahlin but Svechnikov, Tkachuk, Zadina there are many names with high end talent available in this draft and if you add in Chytil/Anderson and one Lettieri in 4th line role that's a lot of new blood as soon as next season. This doesn't even take into account Shestyorkin and then Huska/Wall arriving in NY over the next 2-3 years.
If it is going to be one of those seasons which we haven't had here in 14 years(!) the key is to prep for next year whether it be a new coach (I like Ruff and appreciated him as a Ranger player when I was very young but I don't think he's the long term answer) or identifying which players to keep.
Nash reminds me more and more of Tomas Sandstrom about the time he got to Pittsburgh or when Keith Tkachuk made it to Atlanta and then STL for his second stint. His goal scoring is completely dried up but he's a very valuable 3rd liner to a Cup contender. Grabner's year last season was fluke or really lucky. They'll be lucky if they can get as high as a second for either, more likely a couple of 3rd/4th/decent prospect.
As others have said, I don't see Hayes lasting the next twelve months. They paid Ziba and have two young centers in Anderson/Chytil. A gutsy move would be to trade him along with a Defensive prospect (Graves? Sjalin? Raummanen?) to Detroit for AA. I really like Graves and hope he gets a shot here.
I'm not saying trade guys like Kreider or Vesey but I really don't know if either has a next step. Kreider reminds me so much of Kovalev here; all the tools in the world, shows up in the playoffs, can take over a game, but only does so once every dozen games or so. Funny the Rangers seem to have a guy like that every generation or so (Duguay/Kovalev/Kreider). So you have to at least think about it.
It's also important to add some Cup winners. The Rangers really began to be an elite team going back to the 10-11 team even though yes that year almost ended in non-playoffs. They brought in guys like Fedotenko, then Richards, then St. Louis who had done it before. Next year obviously Tavares is the crown jewel if he gets that far but it might be better to bring a guy like a James Neal or Patric Hornqvist or even a Chris Kunitz if the price is right. Guys who have done it before and can add some leadership doe 2-3 years.
All franchises go through transitional phases that are painful and test a fan's patience. This might be time for one of them here.
The bright spot is that not only Dahlin but Svechnikov, Tkachuk, Zadina there are many names with high end talent available in this draft and if you add in Chytil/Anderson and one Lettieri in 4th line role that's a lot of new blood as soon as next season. This doesn't even take into account Shestyorkin and then Huska/Wall arriving in NY over the next 2-3 years.
If it is going to be one of those seasons which we haven't had here in 14 years(!) the key is to prep for next year whether it be a new coach (I like Ruff and appreciated him as a Ranger player when I was very young but I don't think he's the long term answer) or identifying which players to keep.
Nash reminds me more and more of Tomas Sandstrom about the time he got to Pittsburgh or when Keith Tkachuk made it to Atlanta and then STL for his second stint. His goal scoring is completely dried up but he's a very valuable 3rd liner to a Cup contender. Grabner's year last season was fluke or really lucky. They'll be lucky if they can get as high as a second for either, more likely a couple of 3rd/4th/decent prospect.
As others have said, I don't see Hayes lasting the next twelve months. They paid Ziba and have two young centers in Anderson/Chytil. A gutsy move would be to trade him along with a Defensive prospect (Graves? Sjalin? Raummanen?) to Detroit for AA. I really like Graves and hope he gets a shot here.
I'm not saying trade guys like Kreider or Vesey but I really don't know if either has a next step. Kreider reminds me so much of Kovalev here; all the tools in the world, shows up in the playoffs, can take over a game, but only does so once every dozen games or so. Funny the Rangers seem to have a guy like that every generation or so (Duguay/Kovalev/Kreider). So you have to at least think about it.
It's also important to add some Cup winners. The Rangers really began to be an elite team going back to the 10-11 team even though yes that year almost ended in non-playoffs. They brought in guys like Fedotenko, then Richards, then St. Louis who had done it before. Next year obviously Tavares is the crown jewel if he gets that far but it might be better to bring a guy like a James Neal or Patric Hornqvist or even a Chris Kunitz if the price is right. Guys who have done it before and can add some leadership doe 2-3 years.
All franchises go through transitional phases that are painful and test a fan's patience. This might be time for one of them here.
Wrong Sutter.
Attractive offensive style or not, his system won 2 cups pretty recently. I'm sure many here would complain about how boring the Rangers will have gotten if he were hired (and I don't think he wants to come here) but I've always enjoyed watching the Kings just dismantle teams under his watch before they started to swing downwards (injuries, guys getting older, etc.)
Of the retreads, hes the only one who piques my interest.
I don't think so... I think this is the year the wheels fall off. My hopes were higher until about the 5th pre-season game or so... tactically... the rest of the east has adapted to this system. I'll give you an example...
They know the stretch pass is coming out of the d-zone... so they pressure and actually let guys release... they don't play into the man on man structure... in the o-zone... they collapse and let the Rangers have the entry... box everything out as a 5 man unit and wait for the Rangers to circle the wagons aimlessly... they don't challenge man v man... in other words... the Rangers aren't able to isolate and create gaps like they did.
So if there isn't a wholesale systems change... this isn't going to work.
Add in a lack of depth... mistake prone d that are reaching... and a bunch of cutsie turnovers... it's going to be a bleak year.
Lindy isn't a guy that will get you to .500... he's more of a .400 guy with this squad.
Funny, I heard a more polite response in regards to Nash... more along the lines of him being a quality passenger on a loaded bus.
haveandare
Registered User
I very seriously doubt it took this many years for other NHL teams to finally realize things like give them the stretch pass and box them out in your zone. Any team with half decent coaches, scouts and video guys likely realized that dozens of games into AVs tenure.
I really don’t know how anyone can watch these games and say that this isn’t a good team playing like garbage because they’re done with this coach. This happens to different teams every year - it happened to this team a handful of years ago. This is what it looks like.
Except teams play their system versus 29 others. The east adapted to the PIT system.. by copying it... that counters man on man.
GregSirico
KakkoSZN
Amazing Kreiderman
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The Crypto Guy
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Vesey was basically one of the only players to show up in the Sens series..and helped his team win the NCAA championship, you don't win with players like him?
haveandare
Registered User
Yes I understand what you’re saying but I think you’re drastically overestimating the effect this would have all of a sudden.
SA16
Sixstring
There's no such thing as players you win with. There's good players and bad players. You couldn't win with Kessel either until he won. You couldn't win with Hossa until he won. Obviously they're not in the same class but it's a meaningless statement.
HFsNumber1Heel
FKA Roo Returns...Still A Contrarian Apparently
I get what he means. It's guys who step it up in the clutch. Score big goals at big times. Not every player can be "the guy" but if placed in the right role, they're perfect. Kessel as a main guy didn't work, but playing 3rd/4th on the pecking order it did.
Look at guys like Bobby Carpenter as a checker on Boston and NJ. Also guys like Tikkanen, Claude Lemiuex, and later Drury who saved their best for the playoffs.
If Lias Anderson is nothing more than a 2nd/3rd line tweener center regular season fine, but if he shows up i the playoffs, scores some OT goals, and shutsdown the opposing teams stars, that's a player you win with.
I doubt that Sutter would be very popular on this board, lol. He is fairly stubborn in his ways and when you reach NHL 'royalty' (I think he is in that strata even if he is unemployed) you probably shouldn't consider changing, but he got the types of players that fit his mantra to a 'T' in Los Angeles. That was a marriage made in heaven, really. I can't see the same Darryl Sutter being a fit with the Rangers, though I do believe you would get the 'bounce' that can often cause a team to pick up their game and respond to a new boss (could be almost any new boss maybe?).
I absolutely do think this team needs some no-nonsense push from coaching. I watched the Senators working their asses off last night against the Oilers, just being focussed on completing their assignments. It was fun to see a team passionate about their work.
That said, I am accepting that this could be that year where getting into the playoffs might be a challenge. As long as the young players are developing as they should (hopefully) and the team gets some life and work ethic, that is what you have to deal with.
I absolutely do think this team needs some no-nonsense push from coaching. I watched the Senators working their asses off last night against the Oilers, just being focussed on completing their assignments. It was fun to see a team passionate about their work.
That said, I am accepting that this could be that year where getting into the playoffs might be a challenge. As long as the young players are developing as they should (hopefully) and the team gets some life and work ethic, that is what you have to deal with.
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Trilo- I also think it’s a bit of a personal issue. Guys like Lindberg and Fast always worked their buts off under AV too. Zucc. On the roster we have now, who is that show up every shift type of player? Kreider? Nope. Ziba? Nope. Buch? Nope. Desharnais? Nope. Nash? Nope. Hayes? Nope. Grabner? Nope. Cary? Nope. Vesey? Nope. Miller? A bit but not really. Zucc? Yeah, more or less the only one.
A group shouldn’t be too homogeneous, our is right now and especially after losing Lindberg and with Fast injured.
I definitely think a Sutter could light a fire under guys like Kreider and co for a shorter stint. But I think it’s time to acknowledge that we need more spark in the lineup.
A group shouldn’t be too homogeneous, our is right now and especially after losing Lindberg and with Fast injured.
I definitely think a Sutter could light a fire under guys like Kreider and co for a shorter stint. But I think it’s time to acknowledge that we need more spark in the lineup.
GeorgeKaplan
Registered User
Kessel as "the guy" didn't work because he was literately the only guy on those leafs teams
I feel the same Ola, that's why I suggest calling up the kids who were sent down largely based on waiver exemption. Give Nieves and Lettieri a few games. They didn't play any worse than Carey or Deharnais in preseason and they're continuing to produce in the AHL.
We've seen many top teams, especially re-tooling ones, turn seasons around with savvy call-ups. Are Rust, Kuhnakel, and Sheary game-breakers? Or were they the right kind of high-motor, aggressive forwards that teams need to disrupt an increasing mobile NHL defense position.
We know about Nieves and Lettieri one thing at least; they're faster than Carey and DD.
I'd rather have Nieves and Lettieri tearing it up in the A tbh.
Let them get more games in (they're both new to pro hockey, Nieves didn't play much last year) rather than being thrusted into a faltering team while pressuring them to be the pieces that turn the tide.
I'd rather they continue to hone their skills in Hartford (who look like they won't be the disaster they have been recently) and become options for the next coach we bring in.
Mac n Gs
Drury plz
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Thank goodness, someone else is speaking my language. Tactically AV is coaching a defensive and forechecking style that doesn’t work with how teams pressure the puck now. Teams are too fast and skilled and will beat you to loose pucks and have outlets ready to get the puck up ice. There’s no time or space if you’re always attacking or defending without numbers.
Regarding Nash, I disagree. Ruff is a piss and vinegar hardass, but damn did he coach a fun team in Dallas in Klingberg’s rookie year. The goalies couldn’t stop a beach ball, but those teams attacked with numbers, speed, and structure. Goalies sucked ass though.
TheBloodyNine
Pure Bred Soviet Savage
1. Let us stipulate that the responsibility for this 1-5 start is on the players.
No one on the coaching staff misplayed Artemi Panarin’s game-winning, third-period rush in Columbus on Friday. The Kevins — Hayes and Shattenkirk — conspired to do that.
No one on the staff kidnapped Chris Kreider and kept him in a closet until Saturday night. He alone apparently decided to hide away in plain sight for most of the first five games.
No one from the staff slipped into No. 76 and made that bonehead turnover 15 seconds into the St. Louis loss on Tuesday. That was Brady Skjei in the flesh.
If a coaching change is necessary to catch this team’s attention after four years under Alain Vigneault, shame on the athletes, who sure won’t have it so good playing for someone else.
http://nypost.com/2017/10/15/players-must-take-responsibility-for-rangers-disastrous-start/
Brooks wrote the Rangers situation in the middle is a mess. The entire team is a mess. He hit on all of the major points. He didn't include Pavelec. Good luck trying to get 14-16 wins out of him this season. Raanta was 16-8 last season and 11-6 in 15-16. The Rangers need Pavelec to have a similar impact. Joe Micheletti was discussing Pavelec in the pre-game show and the Rangers need him to get some wins. Good luck with that Joe.
No one on the coaching staff misplayed Artemi Panarin’s game-winning, third-period rush in Columbus on Friday. The Kevins — Hayes and Shattenkirk — conspired to do that.
No one on the staff kidnapped Chris Kreider and kept him in a closet until Saturday night. He alone apparently decided to hide away in plain sight for most of the first five games.
No one from the staff slipped into No. 76 and made that bonehead turnover 15 seconds into the St. Louis loss on Tuesday. That was Brady Skjei in the flesh.
If a coaching change is necessary to catch this team’s attention after four years under Alain Vigneault, shame on the athletes, who sure won’t have it so good playing for someone else.
http://nypost.com/2017/10/15/players-must-take-responsibility-for-rangers-disastrous-start/
Brooks wrote the Rangers situation in the middle is a mess. The entire team is a mess. He hit on all of the major points. He didn't include Pavelec. Good luck trying to get 14-16 wins out of him this season. Raanta was 16-8 last season and 11-6 in 15-16. The Rangers need Pavelec to have a similar impact. Joe Micheletti was discussing Pavelec in the pre-game show and the Rangers need him to get some wins. Good luck with that Joe.
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