Speculation: Roster Building Thread LXXXV: Sell some now, buy some later

[LaffyTaffy]

I wonder when we name Kreider captain. Feel like today would’ve been a fun day to do it.

 

[Luger]

Next year almost $9 come off the buyout history, the buyout of ADA saves $4 ($4.8 if he's traded), and $3.4 is saved by replacing Smith with Lundkvist. That's around $16.3 if ADA is bought out and over $17 if he's traded. We also have $3.3 in space right now, so it will be around $20 extra space next year.

Goat, Hajek and Howden won't get significant raises. Shesterkin, Lindgren, Chytil and and Buchnevich will, but all are RFAs, so should still have $10-12 in space. It's likely the Rangers give Zib a raise the year after, but also likely the Rangers move on from Strome because Chytil is ready to be a 2C, and Kravtsov and/or Barron ready to take another forward spot. The salary difference between Strome and Krav more than covers Zib's pay raise.

Depending on what they need to ship out to acquire Eichel, they can afford him under the cap. It will make things tight, but the point isn't to keep huge amounts of the cap open, but to use it in full. If the Rangers in the future need to move on somebody like Trouba, that will be a bridge to cross in 3-4 years. Doesn't have to be Eichel, could be another top forward depending on the price assets we surrender, but the cap allows it.

Edmonton tried to rebuild with top picks and it was probably the best pure experiment we had and it failed. Sure, they made dumb moves like shipping away Hall and even Strome, but they also got arguably the best player in the NHL. They had 11 top-10 picks, including four 1OA. We have to recognize that we will not that kind of plethora of top picks - and they still failed.

We have a good young base, but we need a top forward. And the Rangers always liked that: Messier, Bure, Jagr, Nash, Panarin. Sometimes it works out better than other times, but having 2 top players make both of them more likely to succeed - both Messier and Leetch did better with each other than on different teams. We need that second superstar, and we can afford him.

If the right deal comes along, the Rangers should pounce.

 

[OrangePMD]

Miller will have his ups and downs. That's to be expected.

The thing with Miller is that when he's up, it looks damn sweet. When he's done, it can look really awkward.

That's why we take our time before proclaiming someone a future all-star or a future journeyman.

The upside with Miller is very enticing. He's got a shot to be a very unique and dangerous combination.

He has a very aggressive playing style. He pinches and steps up to break up passes, almost with reckless abandon. He takes risks both with the puck and without it. Might even say he's a bit of a gambler. When it works, it looks amazing. And when it doesn't, well, it looks like his few most recent games.

Is this typical for him ? Was this what you were talking about, when you said something like HFNYR will love him one moment and hate him the next ?

 

[Fitzy]

Next year almost $9 come off the buyout history, the buyout of ADA saves $4 ($4.8 if he's traded), and $3.4 is saved by replacing Smith with Lundkvist. That's around $16.3 if ADA is bought out and over $17 if he's traded. We also have $3.3 in space right now, so it will be around $20 extra space next year.

Goat, Hajek and Howden won't get significant raises. Shesterkin, Lindgren, Chytil and and Buchnevich will, but all are RFAs, so should still have $10-12 in space. It's likely the Rangers give Zib a raise the year after, but also likely the Rangers move on from Strome because Chytil is ready to be a 2C, and Kravtsov and/or Barron ready to take another forward spot. The salary difference between Strome and Krav more than covers Zib's pay raise.

I don't think the concern is Eichel and the cap for next season, or even the season after that.

The concern is that if we add too much salary, NYR will be stuck in a situation (again) when building a team where we have to give a lot of bridge contracts to players like Fox, Kakko, Lafreniere, Miller, Shesterkin, and any other number of RFAs. We might even need to play hardball like we did with ADA and force players to play for near league minimum if they don't have arbitration rights.

And if you look at how a lot of young cores have been built around the league, teams tend to prefer long term extensions coming right off of a player's ELC. That means you are giving 8 years extensions at age 22-23 that take players right through their prime at 30-31, as opposed to being forced to make a decision as to whether extend a Buchnevich age player through age 34, at what would probably also be a slightly higher AAV.

So if NYR go the route of adding an Eichel, they may lose that flexibility and end up having to play bridge with the younger kids again.

 

[Trxjw]

Next year almost $9 come off the buyout history, the buyout of ADA saves $4 ($4.8 if he's traded), and $3.4 is saved by replacing Smith with Lundkvist. That's around $16.3 if ADA is bought out and over $17 if he's traded. We also have $3.3 in space right now, so it will be around $20 extra space next year.

Goat, Hajek and Howden won't get significant raises. Shesterkin, Lindgren, Chytil and and Buchnevich will, but all are RFAs, so should still have $10-12 in space. It's likely the Rangers give Zib a raise the year after, but also likely the Rangers move on from Strome because Chytil is ready to be a 2C, and Kravtsov and/or Barron ready to take another forward spot. The salary difference between Strome and Krav more than covers Zib's pay raise.

Depending on what they need to ship out to acquire Eichel, they can afford him under the cap. It will make things tight, but the point isn't to keep huge amounts of the cap open, but to use it in full. If the Rangers in the future need to move on somebody like Trouba, that will be a bridge to cross in 3-4 years. Doesn't have to be Eichel, could be another top forward depending on the price assets we surrender, but the cap allows it.

Edmonton tried to rebuild with top picks and it was probably the best pure experiment we had and it failed. Sure, they made dumb moves like shipping away Hall and even Strome, but they also got arguably the best player in the NHL. They had 11 top-10 picks, including four 1OA. We have to recognize that we will not that kind of plethora of top picks - and they still failed.

We have a good young base, but we need a top forward. And the Rangers always liked that: Messier, Bure, Jagr, Nash, Panarin. Sometimes it works out better than other times, but having 2 top players make both of them more likely to succeed - both Messier and Leetch did better with each other than on different teams. We need that second superstar, and we can afford him.

If the right deal comes along, the Rangers should pounce.

I don't think many people are hoping for the Edmonton model here. There are a lot of options that exist between the Edmonton model and clearing out the books to go after Jack Eichel. Eichel is an elite player but some of us are worried about the ripple effects of that sort of trade. You need to consider the price and then you need to consider what pieces will have to move around in order to keep things in tact as the kids start to reach their potential.

We have one star in Panarin, a blossoming star in Fox, a blossoming star in goal with Shesty, and two more potential star forwards on the way in Laf and Kakko. We're not hurting for star or potential star power. We're only hurting for patience.

 

[Fitzy]

We have one star in Panarin, a blossoming star in Fox, a blossoming star in goal with Shesty, and two more potential star forwards on the way in Laf and Kakko. We're not hurting for star or potential star power. We're only hurting for patience.

In FIVE YEARS Chytil will only be 26 years old. This could be a very very long window if we don't screw things up.

 

[Edge]

He has a very aggressive playing style. He pinches and steps up to break up passes, almost with reckless abandon. He takes risks both with the puck and without it. Might even say he's a bit of a gambler. When it works, it looks amazing. And when it doesn't, well, it looks like his few most recent games.

Is this typical for him ? Was this what you were talking about, when you said something like HFNYR will love him one moment and hate him the next ?

Similar to what you're saying.

He's still learning to pick his spots, read plays and put things together. His athleticism helps him mask some decisions, but the goal is to get it to the point where those decisions become even more second nature for him.

 

[bleedblue94]

We just hired Ralph Kruger

 

[wafflepadsave]

Absolutely. No desire to scratch him. He made some dumb decisions but i would MUCH rather him be too aggressive and take it as a learning experience than be a passive shot blocking dime-a-dozen defenseman. especially with that skating.

HF rightfully wants the kids to learn from their mistakes and develop on the team, well let Miller do that.

Definitely agree but I wonder if he’s a bit tired. Not used to this many games. If so, maybe a one game rest when everyone is back couldn’t hurt.

 

[wafflepadsave]

And keeping in mind, that since he's 16 years old, Miller probably has only played something like 200 games as a defenseman, combined, in every league in which he's played.

Yeah, not the least bit worried with him at all. I think he’s had a heck of a year thus far.

 

[bleedblue94]

Definitely agree but I wonder if he’s a bit tired. Not used to this many games. If so, maybe a one game rest when everyone is back couldn’t hurt.

I think we all forget he hadnt played in almost 9 months right? For vets it is probably easier to get in the swing of things and manage the nhl grind, but for some kids it is harder. I wonder how much playing in the wjc helped some of the kids this year get into the swing of things with the nhl season. I am also curious to see how many young players flame out this year around the league in the second half with the condensed schedule. A lot of kids struggle in the second half of a normal season schedule.

I'm not making excuses either, I'm disappointed some with the production, but I think this season is so abnormal I am willing to give some passes on things. Next season has different expectations...

 

[wafflepadsave]

First off...SUPER PUMPED for G-Money! Buffalo is sort of in shambles, but that's why opportunities crop up for recently retired players under 40.



IMO, we have TWO big holes we need to fix, and both of them are at C. Mika's having issues plus his contract question marks, Strome is a band-aid, and Chytil might be more of a utility forward that struggles as a top 6 pivot (especially at faceoffs). Even if Filip takes a step forward, we don't have a C prospect behind him until/unless we draft one this year.

I think we merely need a band-aid on D next year. After that, we won't need to shelter Miller anymore, and any other kid that comes up will already have sheltered 3rd pair time. Not a big hole.

Whether Georgie stays or goes, slays or sucks, it doesn't matter. We can find a Valliquette, Talbot, Raanta when we look competitive in a couple years. Not a big hole.



I just read an article on "Long Covid," that occurs in 1/4 of cases. Mild symptoms at first, but lingering effects after recovery that are more pronounced. Brain fog, lack of coordination, fatigue, etc, that can last for months. We don't know if this is that, but it's certainly plausible.

I guy that that works in my company has the exact same symptoms from Covid since November.

 

[wafflepadsave]

Next year almost $9 come off the buyout history, the buyout of ADA saves $4 ($4.8 if he's traded), and $3.4 is saved by replacing Smith with Lundkvist. That's around $16.3 if ADA is bought out and over $17 if he's traded. We also have $3.3 in space right now, so it will be around $20 extra space next year.

Goat, Hajek and Howden won't get significant raises. Shesterkin, Lindgren, Chytil and and Buchnevich will, but all are RFAs, so should still have $10-12 in space. It's likely the Rangers give Zib a raise the year after, but also likely the Rangers move on from Strome because Chytil is ready to be a 2C, and Kravtsov and/or Barron ready to take another forward spot. The salary difference between Strome and Krav more than covers Zib's pay raise.

Depending on what they need to ship out to acquire Eichel, they can afford him under the cap. It will make things tight, but the point isn't to keep huge amounts of the cap open, but to use it in full. If the Rangers in the future need to move on somebody like Trouba, that will be a bridge to cross in 3-4 years. Doesn't have to be Eichel, could be another top forward depending on the price assets we surrender, but the cap allows it.

Edmonton tried to rebuild with top picks and it was probably the best pure experiment we had and it failed. Sure, they made dumb moves like shipping away Hall and even Strome, but they also got arguably the best player in the NHL. They had 11 top-10 picks, including four 1OA. We have to recognize that we will not that kind of plethora of top picks - and they still failed.

We have a good young base, but we need a top forward. And the Rangers always liked that: Messier, Bure, Jagr, Nash, Panarin. Sometimes it works out better than other times, but having 2 top players make both of them more likely to succeed - both Messier and Leetch did better with each other than on different teams. We need that second superstar, and we can afford him.

If the right deal comes along, the Rangers should pounce.

And the nhl was fine with Edmonton getting 1st oa by the handfuls but we win once and there’s changes to be made.

 

[Kodiak]

I don't think the concern is Eichel and the cap for next season, or even the season after that.

The concern is that if we add too much salary, NYR will be stuck in a situation (again) when building a team where we have to give a lot of bridge contracts to players like Fox, Kakko, Lafreniere, Miller, Shesterkin, and any other number of RFAs. We might even need to play hardball like we did with ADA and force players to play for near league minimum if they don't have arbitration rights.

And if you look at how a lot of young cores have been built around the league, teams tend to prefer long term extensions coming right off of a player's ELC. That means you are giving 8 years extensions at age 22-23 that take players right through their prime at 30-31, as opposed to being forced to make a decision as to whether extend a Buchnevich age player through age 34, at what would probably also be a slightly higher AAV.

So if NYR go the route of adding an Eichel, they may lose that flexibility and end up having to play bridge with the younger kids again.

I think the player factors in to the bridge vs. long-term decision more than the cap space. Conventional wisdom right now says to lock up your core guys long-term as young as possible and bridge everyone else. When we are talking about our core guys, the front office will do what they have to do to get the space for a long-term deal. If in two years, Lafreniere is looking like a budding star coming off of his ELC, he's getting a long-term extension, regardless of the cap situation. Kakko is probably in the same boat next year if he starts producing at the level that his play should be.

ADA got bridged because he was not a core player. Obviously, we did not have the cap space to offer much more, but the front office let the situation go to that point because he was not seen as a priority. If he was viewed as Fox is now, ADA would have been signed sooner and there would have been time to make any necessary moves to clear space.

Also, another factor to consider is that if Eichel is here, then Zibanejad is not here after his current contract. I don't see a way to keep both long-term.

 

[duhmetreE]

We just hired Ralph Kruger

Faceoff coach

 

[duhmetreE]

We've come full circle..

Here is a crazy thought (or not). Coming out of last year’s draft, there was much talk that Kaapo Kakko’s best position might be center. Given the sophomore Finn’s struggles to create offense and get off the wall coupled with the organization’s issues down the middle, would it be nuts to give him a shot there?

By the way? There are folks who do evaluations for a living who believe Alexis Lafreniere should be a center. Or would that be too much too soon to put on the 19-year-old?

The power play has been impotent, ranked 27th in the league at 14.1 percent in having gone 0-for-12 over the last three games and 3-for-28 over the last nine contests. Yet Quinn keeps trotting out the same personnel on the first unit at the expense of Kakko, Chytil and Lafreniere.

Rest of Rangers’ season must be all about next season

surprised he didn't mention Kravtsov at center. I agree with kid playing time though,

I'd take it even further. Chytil should be PKing over Strome. Kakko may excel too

 

[Fitzy]

We've come full circle..



Rest of Rangers’ season must be all about next season

surprised he didn't mention Kravtsov at center. I agree with kid playing time though,

See, I usually find Larry's takes interesting, but wing is an easier position to play than center. So it's unclear to me why this is a solution for these two guys.

 

[Trxjw]

In FIVE YEARS Chytil will only be 26 years old. This could be a very very long window if we don't screw things up.

Yeah it's very easy to overlook just how young these guys are. 3 years is a long time in a vacuum but the core of this group is 23 or younger and the majority of them still have a lot of time before we can call them known quantities. Shesty being the exception in terms of age but that's still pretty crazy to think about. We're here kicking around options to land that franchise center, but for all we know Laf/Chytil/KK could end up as one of the best lines this franchise has ever had.

 

[duhmetreE]

See, I usually find Larry's takes interesting, but wing is an easier position to play than center. So it's unclear to me why this is a solution for these two guys.

I find it interesting because he usually foreshadows.. maybe there's talks about trying to give one of our kids an extended look at center

 

[NYR Viper]

Kakko specifically, with the way he comes back so deep in the defensive zone and is able to win board battles, APPEARS to be a center at times. I'm not sure how what would effect his ability to create scoring chances right now but defensively and the way he plays I could see the thought at least.

 

[wafflepadsave]

We've come full circle..



Rest of Rangers’ season must be all about next season

surprised he didn't mention Kravtsov at center. I agree with kid playing time though,

I'd take it even further. Chytil should be PKing over Strome. Kakko may excel too

If not now, then by the deadline Chytl should be pking.

 

[wafflepadsave]

Kakko specifically, with the way he comes back so deep in the defensive zone and is able to win board battles, APPEARS to be a center at times. I'm not sure how what would effect his ability to create scoring chances right now but defensively and the way he plays I could see the thought at least.

Agreed on everything but still not sure his skating is good enough yet for the center position. Just look at howden.

 

[Fitzy]

If not now, then by the deadline Chytl should be pking.

As long as he's paired with a better faceoff partner, yeah I could see his speed actually being a pretty solid threat shorthanded.

 

[Trxjw]

I really hate this notion that because the season is heading south that kids should be kicked into the deep end of the pool for the hell of it. If they're not producing in 3rd line minutes, they're highly unlikely to produce just by giving them more ice time. The Rangers are better served between now and the start of next season continuing to build value in Strome and Buchnevich while also trying to teach Mika how to play hockey again.

Equally hate the idea that kids who are struggling on the wing should be dropped into the middle "just to see how it goes" or whatever.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

I know I will probably get Killed for saying this especially after last game where he took a few too many unnecessary chances BUT I don’t wanna totally neuter this kid like our forwards have been. We pretty much have no one who can skate the puck with that kind of speed and back off the d to try to create space for some damn offense. He’s doing what the other kids on this team should be doing but are not or are not capable of doing right now.

The problem is that hes not good at what your asking him to do, atleast yet. He was playing terrific until he decided he should rush the puck a lot and pinch unnecessarily without support. Reunanen could provide what you're asking more naturally if he's given the chance.