Speculation: Roster Building Thread LIX: To trade or not to trade CK?

[Lays]

Who cares if we get shortchanged trading Names and Fast?

They are useful players (especially Fast.) Giving them away for little and not getting back best value is poor asset management. Bad way of thinking

 

[NoQuitInNewMexico]

Fast was playing hurt all last year and he didn't do that much. It's a "what have you done for me lately" business if you're not one of the best guys on a team. I wouldn't give us fair value for him if I was another GM

 

[bobbop]

Who cares if we get shortchanged trading Names and Fast?

1. What kind of asset management is that?

2. OK then, Who is going to kill penalties?

 

[RGY]

1. What kind of asset management is that?

2. OK then, Who is going to kill penalties?

I wouldnt trade Fast.

I certainly dont want to give Names away. He is still “young”, can fill multiple roles, take faceoffs occasionally, and skates very well. Also has an edge to his game. We need to get something back for him.

After the dust settles, see what cheap vets are out there to take on the PK role left behind by Names.

 

[Avery16]

Fast was playing hurt all last year and he didn't do that much. It's a "what have you done for me lately" business if you're not one of the best guys on a team. I wouldn't give us fair value for him if I was another GM

Then you wouldn't get him, and you'd have to get someone far inferior for your playoff run, or pay more for someone probably not as good or much better.

 

[aufheben]

I'm curious precisely how much you guys think Namestnikov and Fast are worth.

 

[egelband]

I'm curious precisely how much you guys think Namestnikov and Fast are worth.

With the Rangers cap issues I think they're returning very little. Gorton will have to let them go for 3rd rounders and aaaa guys to stock Hartford, if I had to venture a guess. My assertion is that Gorton doesn't have the leverage to get top value for all his assets. He will try to maximize Kreider and the others will go for - if not "peanuts" then- not much. Unless they want to go the buyouts route, which changes the math a bit. But, end of the day, Kreider gets a decent haul and they dump two or three others for aaaa players and mid round picks.

 

[Avery16]

With the Rangers cap issues I think they're returning very little. Gorton will have to let them go for 3rd rounders and aaaa guys to stock Hartford, if I had to venture a guess. My assertion is that Gorton doesn't have the leverage to get top value for all his assets. He will try to maximize Kreider and the others will go for - if not "peanuts" then- not much. Unless they want to go the buyouts route, which changes the math a bit. But, end of the day, Kreider gets a decent haul and they dump two or three others for aaaa players and mid round picks.

Even this is optimistic right now.

 

[Dijock94]

I'm curious precisely how much you guys think Namestnikov and Fast are worth.

At this point I think you get 4th round picks and a Hartford veteran for Namestnikov and Strome. Maybe you can tie Smith to one of them for a 7th to unload more cap space idk. Either way those guys aren’t worth much and Fast doesn’t have a high enough AAV to make it worth trading him.

 

[SA16]

Asset management takes a backseat to becoming cap compliant. And the difference between getting like a 4th round pick and a 6th round pick is not a big deal. Look at the deadline deals last year. They’re not getting a 2nd. Vesey who probably has similar value around the league just got a 3rd two years from now.

 

[Avery16]

Asset management takes a backseat to becoming cap compliant. And the difference between getting like a 4th round pick and a 6th round pick is not a big deal. Look at the deadline deals last year. They’re not getting a 2nd. Vesey who probably has similar value around the league just got a 3rd two years from now.

That was the first deal after signing Panarin. That deal was probably on the table for a while.

Not only will the second sell-off (Kreider, Vesey, Names, Fast) come up short, but it will cost us more to get a team to take Shattenkirk, Smith or Staal. This is what being over a barrel looks like.

 

[SA16]

That was the first deal after signing Panarin. That deal was probably on the table for a while.

Not only will the second sell-off (Kreider, Vesey, Names, Fast) come up short, but it will cost us more to get a team to take Shattenkirk, Smith or Staal. This is what being over a barrel looks like.

Disagree completely I’ve already shown work on why this is not the case.

 

[egelband]

Even this is optimistic right now.

I'm pretty confident Gorton has some things lined up. Even if he has to lose some third liners for peanuts. I just hope Kreider returns more than Hayes did.

 

[RangerBoy]

The Rangers didn't have $20M of cap space just sitting there. The Rangers gave $11.6M to Panarin. The Rangers traded for Trouba knowing he wants $7.5M-$8M per. The Trouba arbitration briefs are due next Tuesday. Once the Rangers get Trouba under contract, they will have no more cap space left.

The Rangers have other players to sign too. Buchnevich has averaged .56 PPG in his career. I read on here how Buchnevich should take $1M and be happy with it. Or Buchnevich is worth $2.5M AAV for two years. Alex Iafallo who has averaged .369 PPG got $2.45M AAV for two years to avoid arbitration. Buchnevich is worth more than $2.5M AAV in a two year bridge deal. Deangelo and Lemieux didn't sign their QO by yesterday's deadline. Who knows about their situations. Leave space to operate the team in the season.

It will be interesting to see how Gorton gets himself out of this situation. Will it be worth it in the end? Or are the Rangers just moving money around with the same results. Buying out Smith. Buying out Shattenkirk. Instead of just accepting their medicine and letting the bad contract(s) expire in two years, the Rangers will extend the bad money by two years on their cap. Buy out this player. Trade this player for 70 cents on the dollar. Send this player to the AHL to save $1,075,000 on the cap.



The Rangers rise will be determined how fast their top young kids are ready for the big stage and not some big name player from Columbus.

JD always brings up Panarin will be just 28 at the start of this season and how Panarin will still be a good player in 2-3 years when the Rangers young players are ready to become stars. The Rangers are wasting the few remaining prime years left on Panarin. It's not like the Rangers are a team ready to win right now and Panarin will help push them over the top in the next few years. They will try to capitalize and maximize Panarin to win right now/right away. We gave Panarin crazy money but we want to win in the next 1-2 years and we will worry about the backend of the contract later as long as we win in the next few years. They keep saying Panarin will help them in 2-3 years from now. They are wasting the few remaining prime seasons. They admit too. It's backwards thinking.

The Rangers put themselves into a cap bind. It will be interesting to see how Gorton gets them out of this situation. Will it be worth it all in the end?

The Dom guy at The Athletic ran his numbers and there is less than a 50% chance Panarin will be a positive/productive player throughout the 7 year term of the contract.

 

[mas0764]

Namestnikov is whatever but I would want something back for Fast.

He's a good player and he's really cheap. It would have to be something worth my while.

I wouldn’t be actively seeking to dump Fast. He does have value to us and his contract is affordable. My point was more along the lines of, lets not get worked up over lesser support players because we are in a cap crunch right this second due to some free agents we acquired. Trouba and Panarin are worth it.

 

[mas0764]

They are useful players (especially Fast.) Giving them away for little and not getting back best value is poor asset management. Bad way of thinking

Not TRYING to give them away for little; but if that’s what you are stuck with, it’s just reality. It’s not bad asset management, because you came out with Panarin and trouba in the exchange and those guys are necessary sacrifices. It would be no different if they walked in free agency. Though to reiterate again, I would be trying to keep Fast, I doubt his smaller cap hit makes a difference to us.

Namestnikov really is the one to go, imo. I’ll get what I can, but if we are at crunch time, and it’s trade Namestnikov for a 7th in 2025 or buy out Shattenkirk and suffer those consequences, my decision would be to take the 7th for Namestnikov. I care very little about not getting proper value for him, because he has very little to start with, and I’m aware that other teams are holding me up due to my cap situation. I accept that willingly since i signed Panarin and traded for Trouba.

 

[mas0764]

1. What kind of asset management is that?

2. OK then, Who is going to kill penalties?

I’m not actually suggesting trading Fast... that was the premise of the OP. I don’t see why his salary would force us to move him.

Namestnikov we should probably be trying to move along with Kreider to get the cap space we need.

Namestnikov just isn’t worth that many assets to begin with. We’ve won so many of these trades and have assets in reserve that if I have to take a loss on a Namestnikov trade, I’m not worried about it.

 

[egelband]

Not TRYING to give them away for little; but if that’s what you are stuck with, it’s just reality. It’s not bad asset management, because you came out with Panarin and trouba in the exchange and those guys are necessary sacrifices. It would be no different if they walked in free agency. Though to reiterate again, I would be trying to keep Fast, I doubt his smaller cap hit makes a difference to us.

Namestnikov really is the one to go, imo. I’ll get what I can, but if we are at crunch time, and it’s trade Namestnikov for a 7th in 2025 or buy out Shattenkirk and suffer those consequences, my decision would be to take the 7th for Namestnikov. I care very little about not getting proper value for him, because he has very little to start with, and I’m aware that other teams are holding me up due to my cap situation. I accept that willingly since i signed Panarin and traded for Trouba.

Yup. If you have to lose a couple middle sixers for 50 cents on the dollar, that's the price you pay for signing Panarin and Trouba (and Smith, Staal, Girardi, etc). You just hope they don't give any more big deals to average/replaceable players. As long as they keep their powder dry going forward they'll get through this cap rough patch and be fine.

 

[pld459666]

Ultimately, if they are not in the long term plans, and trading them for a bit of a lesser return allows us to avoid dead cap space from buying out slugs on D in Shattenkirk, Smith and or Staal, I'm good with that.

Fast should not be part of the discussion since hes not a burden cap wise, but Namestnikov I'd take a 3rd for him without retention.

I'd be OK with moving Strome as well, again I'd take a bit less than market value without retention.

I look at the cap space generated as an asset along with anything else we get in return for either player.

Now, we can all argue about the who's, what's and why's we are in this situation.

That conversation doesn't amount to a hill of beans.

What matters is how we fix it and move forward.

 

[NYR Viper]

I'm more than okay buying out (1) of the (3) guys on defense this season. For me, if I had to chose, that guy would be Staal

 

[mas0764]

I'm curious precisely how much you guys think Namestnikov and Fast are worth.

Under ideal circumstances, a guy like Namestnikov is worth what, a third?

Zucc brought two conditional seconds. Zucc is way better than Namestnikov.

There is just no real value to be lost if we have to take less on Namestnikov. We weren’t getting anything to begin with.

The value in a trade for him, for us, IS the cap relief.

 

[mas0764]

Asset management takes a backseat to becoming cap compliant. And the difference between getting like a 4th round pick and a 6th round pick is not a big deal. Look at the deadline deals last year. They’re not getting a 2nd. Vesey who probably has similar value around the league just got a 3rd two years from now.

This is exactly what I’m saying.

If I have to take a third round pick for Kreider instead of a first and prospect, that’s a big deal. That’s a lot of value lost.

If I have to take a 6th instead of a third for Namestnikov, who cares? It’s virtually nothing and it’s way overshadowed by our current prospect pool depth and the inherent lack of value of that pick anyway.

I’m not suggesting we go back to doing things the old Ranger way forever. I’m saying taking a bath on one or two low value trades to help us through a tight offseason is not something to cry about.... at all.

 

[mas0764]

That was the first deal after signing Panarin. That deal was probably on the table for a while.

Not only will the second sell-off (Kreider, Vesey, Names, Fast) come up short, but it will cost us more to get a team to take Shattenkirk, Smith or Staal. This is what being over a barrel looks like.

Oh no! What ever will we do!?!?!

You were right all along! We shouldn’t have signed Panarin!

~sobs~

 

[mas0764]

The Rangers didn't have $20M of cap space just sitting there. The Rangers gave $11.6M to Panarin. The Rangers traded for Trouba knowing he wants $7.5M-$8M per. The Trouba arbitration briefs are due next Tuesday. Once the Rangers get Trouba under contract, they will have no more cap space left.

The Rangers have other players to sign too. Buchnevich has averaged .56 PPG in his career. I read on here how Buchnevich should take $1M and be happy with it. Or Buchnevich is worth $2.5M AAV for two years. Alex Iafallo who has averaged .369 PPG got $2.45M AAV for two years to avoid arbitration. Buchnevich is worth more than $2.5M AAV in a two year bridge deal. Deangelo and Lemieux didn't sign their QO by yesterday's deadline. Who knows about their situations. Leave space to operate the team in the season.

It will be interesting to see how Gorton gets himself out of this situation. Will it be worth it in the end? Or are the Rangers just moving money around with the same results. Buying out Smith. Buying out Shattenkirk. Instead of just accepting their medicine and letting the bad contract(s) expire in two years, the Rangers will extend the bad money by two years on their cap. Buy out this player. Trade this player for 70 cents on the dollar. Send this player to the AHL to save $1,075,000 on the cap.



The Rangers rise will be determined how fast their top young kids are ready for the big stage and not some big name player from Columbus.

JD always brings up Panarin will be just 28 at the start of this season and how Panarin will still be a good player in 2-3 years when the Rangers young players are ready to become stars. The Rangers are wasting the few remaining prime years left on Panarin. It's not like the Rangers are a team ready to win right now and Panarin will help push them over the top in the next few years. They will try to capitalize and maximize Panarin to win right now/right away. We gave Panarin crazy money but we want to win in the next 1-2 years and we will worry about the backend of the contract later as long as we win in the next few years. They keep saying Panarin will help them in 2-3 years from now. They are wasting the few remaining prime seasons. They admit too. It's backwards thinking.

The Rangers put themselves into a cap bind. It will be interesting to see how Gorton gets them out of this situation. Will it be worth it all in the end?

The Dom guy at The Athletic ran his numbers and there is less than a 50% chance Panarin will be a positive/productive player throughout the 7 year term of the contract.

You are misinterpreting what Dom L has to say about the Panarin contract. Yes there’s less than a 50% chance that he’s positive value.... in year 7.

But he also projects Panarin to retain top line value through the entire contract and said it was a pretty good deal for us. It was not a bad overpay like the bad contracts frequently given out in free agency.

 

[eco's bones]

IMO Panarin is like a poor man's Gretzky. Among his better assets are his abilities in misdirection, knowing at all times where his teammates and opponents are, being a second and a half ahead of everyone knowing where the puck is going to be.....and he uses these assets to make plays. Another comparable for him would be a superman Mats Zuccarello.

Panarin can finish but that's not primarily what he does. He's not really a one man show--he uses his teammates and the moment we ended up with the 2OA I immediately thought Panarin might be the perfect guy to play with Kakko. Panarin is a player who works well with others and makes those others better. If Panarin is banging in 25-30 a year two/three years from now but Zibanejad has had two more 30 + years and Kakko's pushing at 40 and Kravstov is finishing too we're going to have a pretty damned good offense.