Speculation: Roster Building Thread LIX: To trade or not to trade CK?

[Inferno]

I think it's far from a guarantee that fox plays in the NHL. Honestly I'd be shocked if he started out here.

 

[TheTakedown]

no. if you aren't cap compliment, the league voids every contract you sign in reverse order of the date they were signed (most recent first) until you become compliant and then those players become ufas

Wait really? This is how they do it?

 

[Vitto79]

I don't think Gorton gives 2 ****s about the condition on that deal. He'll do what's best for Fox's development.

Probably not but that’s the condition. It all depends how’ve he plays but even if he’s great they have a lot of RD depth

 

[RGY]

I think it's far from a guarantee that fox plays in the NHL. Honestly I'd be shocked if he started out here.

Rangers might send him to HFD to avoid the conditions on the trade.

We should have a nice young defensive group in HFD with a lot of potential.

Fox
Lindgren
Rykov
Reunanen
Keane

Am I missing anyone for this year?

I worry about Rykov and Reunanen leaving if they dont make the team or get called up at some point.

 

[TheTakedown]

Your missing three fact that 6m is on the cap for next year. So it only helps us this year, puts us in a similar situation with the cap again next season bc that savings we got this year is gone. And the 3rd and 4th year are still around 2m.

I'd rather not buy anyone out and just trade krieder and names. The biggest asset we would get is cap space.

Smit, shatty and staal can all rotate in the lineup if need be since everyone is penciling in hajek, lindgren, and fox who all have a combined 10 games of NHL experience and have NEVER played an 82 game season.

Again the argument is that:

2019-20: Shattenkirk Buyout saves us $5.1M
2020-21: The following players and their existing contracts come off the books:
Strome - $3.1
Namestnikov - $4.0M
Kreider - $4.625M
Belesky - $1.9M (or around $850k if you count him being buried)
Fast - $1.85M
McKegg - $750k
Girardi Buyout Reduction - $2.5M

Total a total of $18.725M
Now Shattenkirks Buyout hits, you need to reduce $6.083M from that number, leaves you with $12.642M

If you want to sign kreider to an extension, he takes about $7M of that.

Now you have $5.142M remaining

Then you go free agent dumpster diving.

If you're absolutely strapped in the following year (we are not), you can then go ahead and buyout 0ne of Staal or Smith.

At the end of the day, the issue I see is that there is no way Shattenkirk is not worth anything to someone with 50% retention

 

[TheTakedown]

RFAs coming off the books now? May as well add Georgiev to that list then

Good chance they just let strome go. His QO will be high

 

[TheTakedown]

@Calad

RFA`s dont come off the books and you are forgetting the 6m of dead cap space from shattys buyout. Plus again I know people want to say the cap will skyrocket, the cap has been steadily decreasing in the amount that it goes up each year. It was supposed to be 83m. It's at 81.5.

The other catch is that if you have Shattenkirk on the roster that year, he's taking up $6M anyways... It's not like there's an option to nuke him

 

[JimmyG89]

I can get behind a half season in the AHL for Fox.

On top of that, it would put at least two RHD on that team: Fox and Raddysh. They need to have that balance for the development of all their defense this season. Keane is going to be in the AHL as well. Allows one of Rykov/Hajek to be the top pairing player, Lindgren and Day can round out the defense there. Reunanen goes back to Europe as a loan. Of course, whoever is on an AHL deal is the extra/rotation player. Not to mention, Smith should be down there buried instead of being bought out.

Allow Shattenkirk to establish some value. Trouba will eat the tough minutes, DeAngelo can take pressure off him to be a scoring option on defense. He could settle into a spot, likely playing with the young LHD that makes the roster and maybe come January/February, a team in contention that needs defense comes along. Only owed $4M after this season, so the lower salary/higher cap hit could entice a team to take him on that isn't financially fluid. Rykov and Hajek are good skaters and will help since Shatty isn't the fastest skater at this point in his career. So long as he and Staal are not out there together.

If Fox is beating down the door to come up sooner, it's not like we couldn't give him a few games and see who sits for him. Shattenkirk could also take a back seat there. Could even run 2LHD and 4RHD and sit Staal for some games. Play ADA on his offhand.

 

[Avery16]

I could make the same argument for Shattenkirk, except he only plays 1 position poorly.

Not even close to as poorly as Smith. There’s a difference between failing to meet expectations, and just totally failing.

 

[TheBloodyNine]

Larry before the offseason: WAHHH Why won’t the Rangers make moves to get better IMMEDIATELY
*Rangers make moves to get better IMMEDIATELY
Larry after the offseason: LOL Rangers are f***ed cap crunch haha

I can’t wait for this guy to retire.

 

[Avery16]

Good chance they just let strome go. His QO will be high

He won’t get that number as a UFA and he probably wouldn’t rather play for less anywhere else. Could probably negotiate an extension for less than his QO.

 

[Avery16]

Not even close to as poorly as Smith. There’s a difference between failing to meet expectations, and just totally failing.

Smith set a new bar for failure when he was demoted to the AHL as a warning in the first year of his overpayment contract. Then he just stayed until injuring himself for the season on Lettieri’s face. That’s failure.

 

[Chalfdiggity3]

Again the argument is that:

2019-20: Shattenkirk Buyout saves us $5.1M
2020-21: The following players and their existing contracts come off the books:
Strome - $3.1
Namestnikov - $4.0M
Kreider - $4.625M
Belesky - $1.9M (or around $850k if you count him being buried)
Fast - $1.85M
McKegg - $750k
Girardi Buyout Reduction - $2.5M

Total a total of $18.725M
Now Shattenkirks Buyout hits, you need to reduce $6.083M from that number, leaves you with $12.642M

If you want to sign kreider to an extension, he takes about $7M of that.

Now you have $5.142M remaining

Then you go free agent dumpster diving.

If you're absolutely strapped in the following year (we are not), you can then go ahead and buyout 0ne of Staal or Smith.

At the end of the day, the issue I see is that there is no way Shattenkirk is not worth anything to someone with 50% retention

Strome is an RFA. People need to stop taking his contract off the books. Unless he is offer sheeted, we are still on the hook for his contract. You have to replace those players and my opinion is chytl is a winger and still have to go and find a top 6 center. But again I think shatty will be able to be traded at the deadline this year to a playoff team that needs a pp QB or the beginning of 2020 season.

My point I'm trying to make is buying out shatty makes the least amount of sense. Staal second bc he is our assistant captain and before the injury he was a top shutdown dman and can help mentor the kids, it's up to Quinn to sit him when the young players are ready. If we MUST buy someone out its Smith bc it affects our cap long term the least.

 

[RGY]

Larry before the offseason: WAHHH Why won’t the Rangers make moves to get better IMMEDIATELY
*Rangers make moves to get better IMMEDIATELY
Larry after the offseason: LOL Rangers are ****ed cap crunch haha

I can’t wait for this guy to retire.

Convinced he has a split personality.

Jekyll and Hyde shit.

 

[TheTakedown]

Ah but that does bc it's still 3m against the cap. Nobody is offering him more money so we dont have to match and since he makes 3.1m his contract remains that for the following year. You cant say that you think he will be traded so 3.1m is off the cap. It remains and its 15m cap space.

He doesn't make $3.1M next year. he is an RFA, and we are free to let him walk if we have an internal replacement.........

Common sense not too hot these days is it.

 

[TheTakedown]

Strome is an RFA. People need to stop taking his contract off the books. Unless he is offer sheeted, we are still on the hook for his contract. You have to replace those players and my opinion is chytl is a winger and still have to go and find a top 6 center. But again I think shatty will be able to be traded at the deadline this year to a playoff team that needs a pp QB or the beginning of 2020 season.

My point I'm trying to make is buying out shatty makes the least amount of sense. Staal second bc he is our assistant captain and before the injury he was a top shutdown dman and can help mentor the kids, it's up to Quinn to sit him when the young players are ready. If we MUST buy someone out its Smith bc it affects our cap long term the least.

You do not have to tender a QO to an RFA... I don't know why everyone is so clueless on this matter...


"The current team must extend a "qualifying offer" to a restricted free agent to retain negotiating rights to that player. Qualifying offers are for one year contracts. The minimum salary for the qualifying offer depends on the player's prior year salary.
Players who earned less than $660,000 in the previous season must be offered 110 percent of last season's salary. Players making up to $1 million must be offered 105 percent. Players making over $1 million must be offered 100 percent

• If the qualifying offer is not made, the player becomes an unrestricted free agent.
• If the player rejects a qualifying offer, he remains a restricted free agent.
• If the player does not sign before December 1, he is ineligible to play in the NHL for the remainder of the season.

"

 

[Ola]

Shattenkirk would be the one player to redeem himself and have a bounce back season. He is due just $4M in 20-21. $2M is a signing bonus. The Rangers pay the bonus and Shattenkirk is a $2M player. His cap remains the same. The issue is where is the opportunity for Shattenkirk to have a bounce back year.

The Rangers have Trouba and Deangelo ahead of Shattenkirk. Quinn played Deangelo over Shattenkirk last season. Shattenkirk is a PP guy and the Rangers have players ahead of him on the depth chart. Fox could begin the season in Hartford. Shattenkirk is the 3rd pair RD for the time being.

The Rangers need the cap space. If Shattenkirk is bought out or traded, the Rangers could be in the market for a stop gap RD if they want Fox to play major minutes in the AHL to begin the season.

This has been the case the last 2 seasons, but I think the argument in favor of it is underwhelming.

The argument for it is that there is potential for that we only waste 6.65m this season and then finally can get away from him scot-free after only one more year. But for this option to be worth it — the upside of it must hold more value than all the combined downsides and I don’t think it has that.

A few factors must be considered:
1. Shatty must be healthy when it’s time to trade him. If something needs fixing, knee or whatever, he could be on IR for a while after the bonus is paid. There is a risk in that.

2. Shatty must have value after the bonus has been paid. He only scored at a 20-30 pts pace last season when he didn’t get top PP time. Fox is a mature player, if he beats out Shatty for a spot we are surely screwed in that regard if Shatty is scratched big parts of next season. There is a risk in that.

Furthermore, it’s possible it just can’t be justified to play Shatty on the PP. Wade Redden only scored 14 pts for us his last season in the NHL. It Shatty only gets 14 pts on a third pair with little PP time — nobody will take him either.

3. To a large extent Ds grows into a certain role in the NHL by getting an opportunity to play and adopting to it. It’s no coincidence that Crosby and Malkin enabled Letang to become the D he became for Pittsburgh; that Backstrom and AO did the same with Mike Green and then John Carlson; Yzerman and Federov with Lidstrom; Toews and Kane with Keith and so forth, the list can be made long.

By — constantly — planting overpaid worthless vets in top roles, to boost their trade value so that we can get rid of them, year in and year out, we are refusing all younger Ds we come close to an opportunity to grow. And yes I know, we can’t know that it have hurt anyone. Which kids could have become NHLers? Ryan Graves? John Gilmour? Dylan McIlrath? Are TDA, Fox and co really ready? Can you play 2-3 rookies on the blueline at the same time? Isn’t it better to keep the vets around?

But in the end my take is just that — everything considered — the roadblock we have on the blueline just isn’t good at all. There is an value in just getting rid of these guys to open up spots. The kids will grow with the opportunity they get to play. All of a sudden a Rykov or Reunanen or Lindgren or Gilmour or someone we pick off waivers or whatever ends up becoming a D we can count on when it’s time to contend. Like Stralsy.

4. If we afford Jeff Gorton flexibility the coming 2 years — I think he will accomplish a lot of very good things and add resources to the organization. That is what he is good at, working those phones. If we don’t take action now and really clear cap space — we will not only not benefit from all moves Gorton potentially could have made, we will also be in a bad negotiation position for a very long time, two full seasons, since everyone will know that we will have a horrible cap situation. The downside of that is also significant.

5. With no flexibility we will have to nickle and dime all kids which undoubtedly will end up losing players we want to keep and give them horrible bridge deals that surely will come back and haunt us — at the time we are supposed to compete.

6. Even if we buy-out — everyone, all three of Staal, Smith and Shatty — it only costs us 4.9m of cap space in 21/22 and 22/23.

That cap space isn’t of much use in 21/22, because we will have a ton of RFAs in 22/23. In addition, a ton of contracts are coming of the books before the 21/22 season.

7. We fantasize that these guys will have value under certain conditions, but those dreams so often just don’t materialize. Nobody want the over the hill vets. The game has changed so much, it’s a skating game. Shatty is an immobile stationary player who can make good decisions with the puck and execute from the blueline and in. This is what the fantasy stats people failed to realize when they guaranteed that we where getting a Norris Candidate when we signed Shatty. The numbers were correct, but they game from yesterday’s game, not today’s... Will anyone want anything to do with a D like Shatty in 2020?

In the end, everything considered, I just think that it’s better to take action now.

 

[Chalfdiggity3]

The other catch is that if you have Shattenkirk on the roster that year, he's taking up $6M anyways... It's not like there's an option to nuke him

All I'm trying to say is I dont want to buy anyone out. I dont think we are a playoff team and for us it's to be in the lottery get another hopefully top 5 pick to get our franchise center and continue to rebuild. Rome wasn't built in a day. Cap space is the key for me to be set up to rock and roll when the big contracts are off the books like lundquist.

Take a reduced price on names and get a 5th or 6th rounder..

Trade krieder for a couple of solid pieces and we are set. I dont want him long term. He will get a 7 x 7 deal and he is no way worth it. Disappears way to often in games and long stretches of the season.

Keep drafting well and in 2 years when we have massive cap space, amazing prospects, and great young players on the team, we can resign our own players to contracts they deserve while being able to say him what team has cap proble,s and cant hold onto a player for his next contract and trade for that player and sign him long term .. ex trouba deal .

 

[NYSPORTS]

Larry before the offseason: WAHHH Why won’t the Rangers make moves to get better IMMEDIATELY
*Rangers make moves to get better IMMEDIATELY
Larry after the offseason: LOL Rangers are ****ed cap crunch haha

I can’t wait for this guy to retire.

+1

He’s awful

 

[Chalfdiggity3]

You do not have to tender a QO to an RFA... I don't know why everyone is so clueless on this matter...


"The current team must extend a "qualifying offer" to a restricted free agent to retain negotiating rights to that player. Qualifying offers are for one year contracts. The minimum salary for the qualifying offer depends on the player's prior year salary.
Players who earned less than $660,000 in the previous season must be offered 110 percent of last season's salary. Players making up to $1 million must be offered 105 percent. Players making over $1 million must be offered 100 percent

• If the qualifying offer is not made, the player becomes an unrestricted free agent.
• If the player rejects a qualifying offer, he remains a restricted free agent.
• If the player does not sign before December 1, he is ineligible to play in the NHL for the remainder of the season.

"

And your telling me we won't retain on him when we only have 15-17m in cap space to sign 4 forwards and possibly resign DeAngelo long term? Let's not forget a replacement for 2nd line center since we have no1 else right now who can take that spot.

Anderson great 3rd line center.. chytl winger... howden 3rd line center... none have shown they can handle top 6 duties at center. Its again a lot of what ifs.. I'm preparing for a worst case scenario and hoping for the best.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Larry before the offseason: WAHHH Why won’t the Rangers make moves to get better IMMEDIATELY
*Rangers make moves to get better IMMEDIATELY
Larry after the offseason: LOL Rangers are ****ed cap crunch haha

I can’t wait for this guy to retire.

He got in a feud on Twitter by responding to something that had nothing to do with him, inserting him into the discussion about getting up early in the morning for your kids etc, and was then roasted for not understanding the meaning behind the tweet.

He's basically my grandma using technology

 

[Kovalev27]

While I have my concerns with Fox’s strength size and skating ability and how that will translate when defending at this level, he did not sign here to play in Hartford. We said the same things about Hayes and Vesey. Going to the minors was an unspoken no as a starting point. Fox is here to play for the Rangers

 

[NYSPORTS]

I think it's far from a guarantee that fox plays in the NHL. Honestly I'd be shocked if he started out here.

I believe the Rangers spoke highly about the probability of Fox starting with the big team/Rangers yet I don’t know what the rush is? Half a season in Hartford or promoting youth if Veterans get traded out during the year might be smarter.

 

[Calad]

Ah but that does bc it's still 3m against the cap. Nobody is offering him more money so we dont have to match and since he makes 3.1m his contract remains that for the following year. You cant say that you think he will be traded so 3.1m is off the cap. It remains and its 15m cap space.

If his QO is too high for his production Gorton can just not qualify him, and poof he is an instant UFA. If he is a valuable player at 3m and he is still around next offseason then we have 1 less roster space to fill, making it only 2 forwards that need to be signed via UFA or ELC promotion. This is a win/win here. You have not made a convincing case that we will be short cap space in 20-21.

 

[tomd]

Ducks fan here wondering if there is a deal to be made around Shattenkirk and Eaves. Ducks need a RHD. Rangers takes Eaves ($3.1mm this year) and put him on LTIR. Net cash cost to Ducks is about $3mm in 19-20 and $4mm in 20-21. Rangers save the entire Shattenkirk cap hit for 2 years. The key is what would the Rangers have to add in terms of a draft pick or prospect to make such a deal work. Seems like a win-win if the sweetener from the Rangers was good enough. Of course, doesn't seem like a move that the Ducks GM would make but it is intriguing.