Speculation: Roster Building Thread LIX: To trade or not to trade CK?

[Irishguy42]

I’m still skeptical. I find it really hard to trust Bettman and co. with that stuff

You don't trust Bettman to accept large amounts of cash being thrown to him for free?

 

[Mac n Gs]

I don’t see why we’re rushing to get rid of Shattenkirk just to hand the spot to Fox, and the MSG predictions with him stepping into the 2nd pair immediately seem a bit ridiculous.

In a best-of-both-worlds scenario, Shatty recoups value this season and gets moved next summer, and Fox gets to develop in Hartford and doesn’t clinch the 30GP condition which would send Carolina our 2020 2nd.

If we’re expecting to be another lottery team, we should try to retain that pick since it should have good value. Besides, having a loaded AHL team might actually help turn the tide down there for once.

If they need to buyout someone, it should be Smith or Staal due to the redundancy of LHD at the moment. It’s important to find minutes for Hajek, Rykov, Reunanen, and Lindgren this year.

 

[BBKers]

I don’t see why we’re rushing to get rid of Shattenkirk just to hand the spot to Fox, and the MSG predictions with him stepping into the 2nd pair immediately seem a bit ridiculous.

In a best-of-both-worlds scenario, Shatty recoups value this season and gets moved next summer, and Fox gets to develop in Hartford and doesn’t clinch the 30GP condition which would send Carolina our 2020 2nd.

If we’re expecting to be another lottery team, we should try to retain that pick since it should have good value. Besides, having a loaded AHL team might actually help turn the tide down there for once.

If they need to buyout someone, it should be Smith or Staal due to the redundancy of LHD at the moment. It’s important to find minutes for Hajek, Rykov, Reunanen, and Lindgren this year.

This. We have a winner

 

[eco's bones]

Shattenkirk would be the one player to redeem himself and have a bounce back season. He is due just $4M in 20-21. $2M is a signing bonus. The Rangers pay the bonus and Shattenkirk is a $2M player. His cap remains the same. The issue is where is the opportunity for Shattenkirk to have a bounce back year.

The Rangers have Trouba and Deangelo ahead of Shattenkirk. Quinn played Deangelo over Shattenkirk last season. Shattenkirk is a PP guy and the Rangers have players ahead of him on the depth chart. Fox could begin the season in Hartford. Shattenkirk is the 3rd pair RD for the time being.

The Rangers need the cap space. If Shattenkirk is bought out or traded, the Rangers could be in the market for a stop gap RD if they want Fox to play major minutes in the AHL to begin the season.

I have the impression that the Rangers think Fox is ready for the NHL--it Shattenkirk is around though his ice time comes out of DeAngelo/Fox's hide. Anyway Shatty could have a bounce back year or maybe not--so if not it's a real issue. The best thing would be to get rid of him--how that happens is anyone's guess---about the last thing I'd want to do is buy him out but if Fox comes in and shows he's clearly a better player that's a real dilemma.

As far as Smith--if we can't move him we should buy him out.

 

[Beer League Sniper]

Out of the three D buyout candidates, Shattenkirk has the highest bounceback potential, IMO.

Both Shattenkirk (knee) and Staal (eye) also have LTIR plausability, if the front office can somehow work it out. Other teams seem to get away with it.

Smith is just useless from every angle. He's the guy I buyout if it comes to that.

 

[Blue Blooded]

I would put the likelihood that Fox is better than any of 22 or 77 in his rookie season below 5%. While he might be "NHL ready" I fail to see the benefit in playing him over better players and giving up a 2020 2nd in the process.

 

[Vitto79]

I would put the likelihood that Fox is better than any of 22 or 77 in his rookie season below 5%. While he might be "NHL ready" I fail to see the benefit in playing him over better players and giving up a 2020 2nd in the process.

Is he as good as Makar? Avs moved Barrie

 

[GeorgeKaplan]

You don't trust Bettman to accept large amounts of cash being thrown to him for free?

You and I both know it’s not that simple

 

[GAGLine]

Shattenkirk would be the one player to redeem himself and have a bounce back season. He is due just $4M in 20-21. $2M is a signing bonus. The Rangers pay the bonus and Shattenkirk is a $2M player. His cap remains the same. The issue is where is the opportunity for Shattenkirk to have a bounce back year.

The Rangers have Trouba and Deangelo ahead of Shattenkirk. Quinn played Deangelo over Shattenkirk last season. Shattenkirk is a PP guy and the Rangers have players ahead of him on the depth chart. Fox could begin the season in Hartford. Shattenkirk is the 3rd pair RD for the time being.

The Rangers need the cap space. If Shattenkirk is bought out or traded, the Rangers could be in the market for a stop gap RD if they want Fox to play major minutes in the AHL to begin the season.

If Shattenkirk is bought out, it means Smith isn't, and he can play the right side if needed.

For those still not convinced that buying out Shatty is the right move, let's compare the buyouts of Shatty, Staal and Smith.

[TABLE="class: brtb_item_table"][TBODY][TR][TD]Player[/TD][TD]2019-20 cap hit[/TD][TD]2019-20 savings[/TD][TD]2020-21 cap hit[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]Shattenkirk[/TD][TD]$1,483,333[/TD][TD]$5,166,667[/TD][TD]$6,083,333[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]Staal[/TD][TD]$2,900,000[/TD][TD]$2,800,000[/TD][TD]$3,700,000[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]Smith[/TD][TD]$970,833 [/TD][TD]$3,379,167 [/TD][TD]$3,145,833 [/TD][/TR][/TBODY][/TABLE]

A Shattenkirk buyout saves us the most cap space, by far. We would only need to clear another 2-3 mil to be able to fit our RFAs. That's a lot easier than trying to clear another 4-5 mil via trades.

Regarding next year, Shatty's cap hit is less than 3 mil higher than Smith's. All else being equal, that is the only difference. Is 3 mil really going to put us in cap hell? We've got 3.325 mil coming off the books between Girardi and Beleskey, which will cover that difference, and some players who are on the team this year won't be next year (whichever of Kreider or Names isn't traded this summer and any retention from trades). Plus the cap will go up by 1 to 2 mil.

Buying out Shatty is the right move. He saves us the most money now and his cap hit WON'T be a problem next year. As RB said, he isn't going to be on the PP over Trouba or ADA. He doesn't have the versatility of Smith, who can play either side on defense as well as wing on the 4th line. He doesn't do any of them well, but he can do them.

 

[Avery16]

If Shattenkirk is bought out, it means Smith isn't, and he can play the right side if needed.

For those still not convinced that buying out Shatty is the right move, let's compare the buyouts of Shatty, Staal and Smith.

[TABLE="class: brtb_item_table"][TBODY][TR][TD]Player[/TD][TD]2019-20 cap hit[/TD][TD]2019-20 savings[/TD][TD]2020-21 cap hit[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]Shattenkirk[/TD][TD]$1,483,333[/TD][TD]$5,166,667[/TD][TD]$6,083,333[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]Staal[/TD][TD]$2,900,000[/TD][TD]$2,800,000[/TD][TD]$3,700,000[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]Smith[/TD][TD]$970,833 [/TD][TD]$3,379,167 [/TD][TD]$3,145,833 [/TD][/TR][/TBODY][/TABLE]
A Shattenkirk buyout saves us the most cap space, by far. We would only need to clear another 2-3 mil to be able to fit our RFAs. That's a lot easier than trying to clear another 4-5 mil via trades.

Regarding next year, Shatty's cap hit is less than 3 mil higher than Smith's. All else being equal, that is the only difference. Is 3 mil really going to put us in cap hell? We've got 3.325 mil coming off the books between Girardi and Beleskey, which will cover that difference, and some players who are on the team this year won't be next year (whichever of Kreider or Names isn't traded this summer and any retention from trades). Plus the cap will go up by 1 to 2 mil.

Buying out Shatty is the right move. He saves us the most money now and his cap hit WON'T be a problem next year. As RB said, he isn't going to be on the PP over Trouba or ADA. He doesn't have the versatility of Smith, who can play either side on defense as well as wing on the 4th line. He doesn't do any of them well, but he can do them.

Look if you want to make the case for buying out Shattenkirk vs Smith, fine. But please leave out all this “Smith can play the right side” and “the versatility of Smith”. He can’t play the left side, let alone the right side. He plays LW about as good as a 13F, meaning someone expected to not be on the ice unless it’s an emergency. Versatility doesn’t mean sucking no worse than normal in a different position. It assumes you can actually play a position. Just stick to the cap hits, because there’s no reason Smith should play in any position.

 

[GAGLine]

Look if you want to make the case for buying out Shattenkirk vs Smith, fine. But please leave out all this “Smith can play the right side” and “the versatility of Smith”. He can’t play the left side, let alone the right side. He plays LW about as good as a 13F, meaning someone expected to not be on the ice unless it’s an emergency. Versatility doesn’t mean sucking no worse than normal in a different position. It assumes you can actually play a position. Just stick to the cap hits, because there’s no reason Smith should play in any position.

I could make the same argument for Shattenkirk, except he only plays 1 position poorly.

 

[offdacrossbar]

I don’t see why we’re rushing to get rid of Shattenkirk just to hand the spot to Fox, and the MSG predictions with him stepping into the 2nd pair immediately seem a bit ridiculous.

In a best-of-both-worlds scenario, Shatty recoups value this season and gets moved next summer, and Fox gets to develop in Hartford and doesn’t clinch the 30GP condition which would send Carolina our 2020 2nd.

If we’re expecting to be another lottery team, we should try to retain that pick since it should have good value. Besides, having a loaded AHL team might actually help turn the tide down there for once.

If they need to buyout someone, it should be Smith or Staal due to the redundancy of LHD at the moment. It’s important to find minutes for Hajek, Rykov, Reunanen, and Lindgren this year.

if you are familiar with fox and his body of work, hes ready. hes here to play and hes not going to hartford.

he wasn't acquired to go to hartford and marinate anymore. he can play 3rd pair sheltered minutes if nec but practicing here and playing here is whats in store for him.

problem is, there isnt a market for shatty. if there were he would have been gone already with retention. there were no takers. hes 30 heading to 31. hes been hurt and his production last yr was poor. 28 points total. he doesn't play much defense. no one wants kevin shattenkirk- hes basically a right hand version of marc staal. they are here by default.

with ADA and fox, there are BETTER alternatives in house. younger and more productive (ADA) and younger and more talented (fox). there just wont be any minutes for shatty.

sadly, hes the 3rd best rhd PP option on the team and a guy who isnt a 5v5 guy at all.

no one wants him, we dont need him, he isnt better than whom we have on roster. playing him would be a mistake. its buy out or a lucky break trade.. that's the KS reality right now.

 

[Vitto79]

They do have a condition on the Fox pick this year to Carolina so maybe they do think he may start in the AHL w Shatty getting minutes w Trouba and DeAngelo

I could see McQuaid back cheap to be honest

 

[NYR Viper]

The easy answer is to buy-out Smith. The next guy up would be Staal. The Rangers have Lindgren, Rykov and Hajek on the left side close to NHL ready and finding a bottom-pairing LD is much easier. Fox should start the season in the AHL

 

[offdacrossbar]

if shatty has a good camp, say hes skating well and offering something, then i could see fox starting in hartford but unlikely. hes the 3rd best rhd on roster imo.

adam fox is a smooth, offensive catalyst type player. a creator. hes exactly what a young team like this one needs to have to get pucks to the forwards and exit the zone and possess the puck. what he did last yr at harvard was stupid good. hes ready.

shatty isnt that. at all.

if we could have moved him he would have been gone. what does that tell you ?

i think this organization is fine going trouba/ADA/fox on the right side. and so am i.

i continue to believe that ADA will have a monster year making shatty even more irrelevant.

 

[GAGLine]

They do have a condition on the Fox pick this year to Carolina so maybe they do think he may start in the AHL w Shatty getting minutes w Trouba and DeAngelo

I could see McQuaid back cheap to be honest

I don't think Gorton gives 2 shits about the condition on that deal. He'll do what's best for Fox's development.

 

[NYR Viper]

if shatty has a good camp, say hes skating well and offering something, then i could see fox starting in hartford but unlikely. hes the 3rd best rhd on roster imo.

adam fox is a smooth, offensive catalyst type player. a creator. hes exactly what a young team like this one needs to have to get pucks to the forwards and exit the zone and possess the puck. what he did last yr at harvard was stupid good. hes ready.

shatty isnt that. at all.

if we could have moved him he would have been gone. what doe that tell you ?

i think this organization is fine going trouba/ADA/fox on the right side. and so am i.

i continue to believe that ADA will have a monster year making shatty even more irrelevant.

And this is all perfectly fine, but so is Fox getting BIG minutes in Hartford for 40 games, playing Shattenkirk in the NHL for 40 games to hopefully rebuild his value and then seeing what trades are available at that time. Perhaps an injury necessitates Fox coming up earlier.

It's not a negative to have Fox play half a season in the AHL. I am also very high on the kid but baby steps with defensemen, especially when the team is in the position they re, isn't a bad thing

 

[offdacrossbar]

And this is all perfectly fine, but so is Fox getting BIG minutes in Hartford for 40 games, playing Shattenkirk in the NHL for 40 games to hopefully rebuild his value and then seeing what trades are available at that time. Perhaps an injury necessitates Fox coming up earlier.

It's not a negative to have Fox play half a season in the AHL. I am also very high on the kid but baby steps with defensemen, especially when the team is in the position they re, isn't a bad thing

i agree with this. we all remember matt gilroy

there's no negative to fox in hartford if shatty plays well.

fox to hartford to play an inferior shatty i do have a problem with.

having 2 marc staals would suck

adam fox is ready to be the 3rd pair rhd for this team now.

 

[eco's bones]

Out of the three D buyout candidates, Shattenkirk has the highest bounceback potential, IMO.

Both Shattenkirk (knee) and Staal (eye) also have LTIR plausability, if the front office can somehow work it out. Other teams seem to get away with it.

Smith is just useless from every angle. He's the guy I buyout if it comes to that.

Staal is a limited player but he also wears an 'A' and is a penalty killer. Shattenkirk is not a penalty killer and to bounce back is going to need to do that on the power play--problem is Trouba, Fox and DeAngelo all might be better power play options.....or put another way the Rangers have several other right shot power play point options and Shattenkirk's biggest strength is not really a need and he is way more expensive than DeAngelo or Fox.

If Shattenkirk stays it could mean that Fox plays in Hartford--it could mean some kind of rotation between Fox and DeAngelo and Shattenkirk--it could mean DeAngelo gets moved. If Shattenkirk plays out his contract here does that mean Fox waits two years in Hartford? no matter how ready he is or whether Kevin bounces back or not? Depending on what we might get back for DeAngelo maybe that would be the best option. But the way it looks to me right now Shattenkirk sticks out like a sore thumb--he may well have started his decline as an effective player judging by his two years with us and he has a limited future at best of two more years and he won't get another contract from us--to me if someone can be moved out he would be the best option.

 

[Beer League Sniper]

I don't think Gorton gives 2 ****s about the condition on that deal. He'll do what's best for Fox's development.

Completely agree.

Like most young D, I don't think Fox starts in the NHL unless he completely blows away the competition in camp. Even the AHL is a huge step up in quality of competition from the NCAA.

I think Gorton will be conservative with his approach to Fox, but I don't think going from a 3rd to a 2nd round pick is going to stop him from giving Fox however many NHL games he's earned with his play.

 

[offdacrossbar]

Staal is a limited player but he also wears an 'A' and is a penalty killer. Shattenkirk is not a penalty killer and to bounce back is going to need to do that on the power play--problem is Trouba, Fox and DeAngelo all might be better power play options.....or put another way the Rangers have several other right shot power play point options and Shattenkirk's biggest strength is not really a need and he is way more expensive than DeAngelo or Fox.

If Shattenkirk stays it could mean that Fox plays in Hartford--it could mean some kind of rotation between Fox and DeAngelo and Shattenkirk--it could mean DeAngelo gets moved. If Shattenkirk plays out his contract here does that mean Fox waits two years in Hartford? no matter how ready he is or whether Kevin bounces back or not? Depending on what we might get back for DeAngelo maybe that would be the best option. But the way it looks to me right now Shattenkirk sticks out like a sore thumb--he may well have started his decline as an effective player judging by his two years with us and he has a limited future at best of two more years and he won't get another contract from us--to me if someone can be moved out he would be the best option.

i think ADA is going to establish himself this year as a fixture. hes not going anywhere.

that doesnt bode well for KS. at all.

his numbers last year were excellent. his zone exits and possession metrics were top end and i mean league wide.

hes a very skilled, new age type defender and he can play 5v5 reliably. if his head is screwed on straight and he gets a regular shift both 5v5 and on PP1 or 2, hes gonna approach 50 points.

easy.

this organization needs shatty to play well so he can be moved. problem is, that means fox in hartford.

 

[NYR Viper]

i agree with this. we all remember matt gilroy

there's no negative to fox in hartford if shatty plays well.

fox to hartford to play an inferior shatty i do have a problem with.

having 2 marc staals would suck

adam fox is ready to be the 3rd pair rhd for this team now.

Similar things were said about McDonagh

 

[SA16]

If Gorton doesn't care about the condition he should have just given them the 2nd - without any conditions - because all the condition does then is prevent us from potentially dealing the third round pick.

 

[offdacrossbar]

Similar things were said about McDonagh

yup

i have zero problem with fox in hartford outa camp. dont want it but it does make most sense.

trouba/ADA/shatty is fine with shatty sheltered.

shatty is only here by default.

lets hope for an injury to a key rh pmd and a new home for shatty by jan

 

[SA16]

Staal is a limited player but he also wears an 'A' and is a penalty killer. Shattenkirk is not a penalty killer and to bounce back is going to need to do that on the power play--problem is Trouba, Fox and DeAngelo all might be better power play options.....or put another way the Rangers have several other right shot power play point options and Shattenkirk's biggest strength is not really a need and he is way more expensive than DeAngelo or Fox.

If Shattenkirk stays it could mean that Fox plays in Hartford--it could mean some kind of rotation between Fox and DeAngelo and Shattenkirk--it could mean DeAngelo gets moved. If Shattenkirk plays out his contract here does that mean Fox waits two years in Hartford? no matter how ready he is or whether Kevin bounces back or not? Depending on what we might get back for DeAngelo maybe that would be the best option. But the way it looks to me right now Shattenkirk sticks out like a sore thumb--he may well have started his decline as an effective player judging by his two years with us and he has a limited future at best of two more years and he won't get another contract from us--to me if someone can be moved out he would be the best option.

Shattenkirk had among the best PK results in the league while he played in STL. The only reason he "isn't a penalty killer" anymore is because he has the reputation of being an offensive guy and hasn't been played there since going to Washington. Staal, conversely, has very poor PK results.