Speculation: Roster Building Thread IV (2021 Offseason) - Bob Dylan turns 80 & "The times they are a changing!"

[Off Sides]

The stats always suggested Trouba is what we all think he is.

shattenkirk is a good player who had a shitty injury that he played through and was unfairly criticized here. Anyone looking at the stats could’ve told you he would bounce back in Tampa and was a great buy low candidate.

That is not true, Shattenkirk was billed as a good top 4D, and Trouba a top pair D, or at least that was the argument for them at the time.

Actually though you are sort of explaining my point, Shattenkirk on a much better Tampa roster was a good buy low candidate for them, just as Trouba was on a much better Winnipeg team. Move either to say the Rangers or Ducks and it's a different story.

 

[Doctyl]

That is not true, Shattenkirk was billed as a good top 4D, and Trouba a top pair D, or at least that was the argument for them at the time.

Actually though your are sort of explaining my point, Shattenkirk on a much better Tampa roster was a good buy low candidate for them, just as Trouba was on a much better Winnipeg team. Move either to say the Rangers or Ducks and it's a different story.

Shattenkirk was 5th in the league in relCF% and 21st in relxGF% on a terrible ducks team.

he was 15th in relCF% and 27th in relxGF% here.

he is a good player.

No stats person would have claimed Trouba was a #1D when the rangers traded for him.

He was 71st in relCF% and 60th in relxGF%.

They would have absolutely told you that he was miles better than Pionk when we made that trade.

 

[TheDirtyH]

Didnt shattenkirk blow out his knee like game one for us? Pretty sure his stats were still good after that season.

Also, catch me still shaking my head at AV refusing to play he and McDonagh together.

 

[Off Sides]

Shattenkirk was 5th in the league in relCF% and 21st in relxGF% on a terrible ducks team.

he was 15th in relCF% and 27th in relxGF% here.

he is a good player.

No stats person would have claimed Trouba was a #1D when the rangers traded for him. They would have absolutely told you that he was miles better than Pionk when we made that trade.

Player Discussion - Kevin Shattenkirk
Scroll down to like post 40 and beyond

Trouba, I can not find the debate, yet it went something like he is good offensively. Perhaps I am mistaken the stats portion of top pair, or may be thinking of Smith and his stats.

Edit: also for reference here is the current thread we should all be reading.
Player Discussion - Phillip Danault - You Guys Are Getting Paid? Edition

 

[WojtekWolski86]

I'll gladly take a replacement for Strome that you can lean on defensively and wins draws and can skate. Our problem in the forseeable future is not matching up with Crosby/Malkin and Backstrom. It will be Barzal and Hughes. If that defensive upgrade costs 10-15 points on offense? So be it. It also takes pressure off Ziba when it comes to Def zone start % and we won't have to play him 22+ min a game.

Heck being able to field a shutdown line of Buch/Kreider (Def Center) Kaako while stacking Ziba Panarin Laf for a few shifts wouldn't be terrible either.

 

[Doctyl]

Player Discussion - Kevin Shattenkirk
Scroll down to like post 40 and beyond

Trouba, I can not find the debate, yet it went something like he is good offensively. Perhaps I am mistaken the stats portion of top pair, or may be thinking of Smith and his stats.

Edit: also for reference here is the current thread we should all be reading.
Player Discussion - Phillip Danault - You Guys Are Getting Paid? Edition

I believe the Trouba argument was that he should continue to put up points here as a #1 PPQB because he wasnt given that role in WPG with Buf there at the time. Obviously at the time no one saw ADA or Fox's PP talent coming so soon.

I don't know if anecdotal evidence from a fanbase is the best way to approach this. MTL is also starved for talent upfront. They dont have a Zib or a Panarin. They want something different than what we want.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Nils signed.. now we wait to see if he’s still a Ranger after the off season

When was the last time a top prospect signed his ELC and was traded weeks later before even making his debut?

 

[Doctyl]

When was the last time a top prospect signed his ELC and was traded weeks later before even making his debut?

When was the last time a player of Eichel's caliber was available

 

[leetch99]

Danault would push this team closer to contending than keeping Buch will.

BINGO ! Perfect sentence. I think we will be pretty OK without Buch . It is hard saying goodbye but it has to be done .

 

[SRHRangers]

So you're bringing back the obviously inferior player for the same price?

I would be bringing neither in.

Danault is going to be a worse contract than Krieder, and I rather not have to make 2 trades (Buch and Strome).

Live with Strome for one more season and see if you can acquire a C next offseason.

 

[Machinehead]

I would be bringing neither in.

Danault is going to be a worse contract than Krieder, and I rather not have to make 2 trades (Buch and Strome).

Live with Strome for one more season and see if you can acquire a C next offseason.

Buchnevich and Strome aren't fits anyway regardless of cap space.

Strome is a worse version of what we already do in spades and we have too many wingers.

 

[wafflepadsave]

And that is the full stop.

He reminds me of Pageau in that regard. Just because you throw money at him doesn't mean he'll magically produce more, albeit he has puck skill, it just doesn't translate and convincing him otherwise could prove a fatal move if we locked him in to term.

Excellent player who over values himself and his role. Pageau fits Trotz system so it works, I dont ever see us in a grind and muck system with the talent we have. Danault is more likely to be an underwhelming failure in NYR than to be a successful catalyst that ties the loose ends.

So we’re going after him?

 

[Paulie Walnutz]

When was the last time a top prospect signed his ELC and was traded weeks later before even making his debut?

What if he’s packaged in a deal to a bad team let’s say for Eichel, he then refuses to sign there and boom. Not saying it would have been a likely scenario but it’s easier to trade someone who has a contract compared to someone who hasn’t signed yet.

 

[Machinehead]

What if he’s packaged in a deal to a bad team let’s say for Eichel, he then refuses to sign there and boom. Not saying it would have been a likely scenario but it’s easier to trade someone who has a contract compared to someone who hasn’t signed yet.

And what, not play for three years?

This isn't a college kid, he's already gonna be 21 before the season starts.

 

[Machinehead]

When was the last time a player of Eichel's caliber was available

You know, now that you mention it, elite/franchise players moving isn't that rare lol

Karlsson, Panarin, Pietrangelo, Tavares, Subban/Weber (for each other), Hall (like 5 times), Jones (I think Jones is booti but he certainly carries that reputation), ROR.

Even Laine, people would have said not that long ago he was untouchable.

 

[Off Sides]

I believe the Trouba argument was that he should continue to put up points here as a #1 PPQB because he wasnt given that role in WPG with Buf there at the time. Obviously at the time no one saw ADA or Fox's PP talent coming so soon.

I don't know if anecdotal evidence from a fanbase is the best way to approach this. MTL is also starved for talent upfront. They dont have a Zib or a Panarin. They want something different than what we want.

Honestly, I'd take their word for it as they have watched the player way more than any of us likely have. And it goes both ways there too, some say they want to see him signed even at 5M, others not so much, yet there is way less hyperbole there.

 

[JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK]

When was the last time a top prospect signed his ELC and was traded weeks later before even making his debut?

this doesnt mean anything

 

[Doctyl]

Honestly, I'd take their word for it as they have watched the player way more than any of us likely have. And it goes both ways there too, some say they want to see him signed even at 5M, others not so much, yet there is way less hyperbole there.

they're delusional in thinking he would possibly be available for less than 5M AAV. He already turned that down from them, I dont understand those fans who want him under 5.

There was a fan arguing there that Bergeron makes 6.875 so Danault should be paid as a Bergeron without the offense and make less than 5. Not the brightest people in that thread comparing Danault's future contract to one signed 7 years ago.

 

[Machinehead]

If prime Bergeron signs today, he gets 12.

 

[Doctyl]

If prime Bergeron signs today, he gets 12.

By cap% it prorates to like 8.8M AAV and thats when he was like barely a 60 point guy rather than a perennial 70+ pace player

 

[haveandare]

I get being concerned about a potential Danault contract, but this team needs a center (or centers) that have an interest in playing 2-way, north-south hockey. It’s either get him for nothing but cash, or make a trade for one.

Trade for one then imo and get someone younger His contract is going to be really ugly sooner rather than later

 

[Doctyl]

Trade for one then imo and get someone younger His contract is going to be really ugly sooner rather than later

He would only be 34 by the end of a 6 year deal. I wouldnt go any further than 6 years myself. I guess you have to weigh it as trading Buch and Strome now for whatever we get in return at center or trading Buch and Strome for futures and taking Danault now.

 

[huerter]

Nobody thinks the game similar to Panarin and he excels with players who aren't offense-first.

Danault is a dream match for him.

Trust me, I wanted us to get Anisimov for a bargain a couple years ago to pair them together.

Strome does have good synergy with him in the offensive zone. They both are very good royal road passers.

 

[Off Sides]

they're delusional in thinking he would possibly be available for less than 5M AAV. He already turned that down from them, I dont understand those fans who want him under 5.

There was a fan arguing there that Bergeron makes 6.875 so Danault should be paid as a Bergeron without the offense and make less than 5. Not the brightest people in that thread comparing Danault's future contract to one signed 7 years ago.

Right some of their posters are off, some of them are not, just like here.

Yet that is a conversation we should have here too, looking longer term, three years from now.

Panarin, Trouba, Kreider, Lindgren the buyouts are going to carry a total cap hit of about 33M for the next two years

They have Shesty, Chytil to sign this summer (7-8M?)

40-41M used on 6 players, ~half the cap


Then Zbad, Fox, Strome, Kakko and Kravtsov next summer

If they replaced Strome with Danault(6M)

What does Zbad, Fox, Kakko, Kravtsov cost (19-23m)

On the low end of those estimates, 65M, on the high end 71M used on 11 players?

So anywhere from 10 to 16M for the other 11-12 players.

Minus the cap wiggle room of say 500K, minus a back goalie 2M?

7.5M to 13.5M for 9-10 players

Not even realistically doable at the 7.5M and barely doable at 13.5M

Then the next off-season they have to extend Laff, Miller, Barron, yet they will lose about 3M in buyout cap space used.

None of that included Buch, just replaced Strome with Danault at 6M. My take, not enough cap space to make it work.

If it were me, I aim lower than anywhere near 6M to replace both Buch and Strome. Buch maybe the system provides, Strome that is where they need to find the cheaper alternative, one they probably do not have unless Chytil and Barron do it, in which case why are they spending 6M on Danault again? Even better if they could move Buch and Strome in some way to get another Chytil/Barron so if either or both falter they have another possible option.

 

[jay from jersey]

Right some of their posters are off, some of them are not, just like here.

Yet that is a conversation we should have here too, looking longer term, three years from now.

Panarin, Trouba, Kreider, Lindgren the buyouts are going to carry a total cap hit of about 33M for the next two years

They have Shesty, Chytil to sign this summer (7-8M?)

40-41M used on 6 players, ~half the cap


Then Zbad, Fox, Strome, Kakko and Kravtsov next summer

If they replaced Strome with Danault(6M)

What does Zbad, Fox, Kakko, Kravtsov cost (19-23m)

On the low end of those estimates, 65M, on the high end 71M used on 11 players?

So anywhere from 10 to 16M for the other 11-12 players.

Minus the cap wiggle room of say 500K, minus a back goalie 2M?

7.5M to 13.5M for 9-10 players

Not even realistically doable at the 7.5M and barely doable at 13.5M

Then the next off-season they have to extend Laff, Miller, Barron, yet they will lose about 3M in buyout cap space used.

None of that included Buch, just replaced Strome with Danault at 6M. My take, not enough cap space to make it work.

If it were me, I aim lower than anywhere near 6M to replace both Buch and Strome. Buch maybe the system provides, Strome that is where they need to find the cheaper alternative, one they probably do not have unless Chytil and Barron do it, in which case why are they spending 6M on Danault again? Even better if they could move Buch and Strome in some way to get another Chytil/Barron so if either or both falter they have another possible option.

I’m on the get Cirelli train. He’s young, battle tested, good playoff performer, signed to basically the same thing everyone wants to give Danault. He’s had a cup win already, played a prominent role in getting that cup, and exactly the type of center we need behind Zibby. Plus Tampa is screwed and it’s 99 percent likely he has to leave cause of cap room.
I think Chytil + Jones probably gets it done. It’s a lot to give, but you know how the saying goes. That trade may also buy them enough room to extend 1 of Coleman or Goodrow. I can guarantee they don’t want to lose both.
The only other alternative for them would be to trade all of Killorn, Gourde, and Palat but the limited NTC clauses make that very tough for the bolts
My only other alternative would be to see if they throw a high dollar 2yr deal at Krecji and hope he takes it. Zibby, Strome,Chytil, and Rooney is not a good look at center for us at all