Speculation: Roster Building Thread II (2019/2020) - DeAngelo and Lemieux Left

[lucky13]

I don't know about you, but I think most of us have a "track record" ages 17-22.

Some of us it took even a lil longer.... I mean seriously.... what major distraction or off ice issue can any detractor even point to... you would think if he was so bad something would’ve leaked to the NY media by now....

 

[bobbop]

Yep, definitely destroys the aura about them. I mean, that aura would probably be destroyed as we got older anyway and realize that these are just people, but social media certainly drives home the fact that these are young, dumb, privileged children that I’d be avoiding at all costs in basically any other situation. #curmudgeon

Really? Maybe back in the day but nowadays it seems most NHLers who are drafted came from a pretty privileged background to begin with, especially with the recent influx of former NHLers kids and nephews entering the league.

You would be well served to get to know some players before you make a statement like that. I got to spend some time with Ryan Strome last year and he was extremely well mannered and very cordial. I know Shane Doan and any parent would be proud to have a young man like him for a son. Same with Mike Smith. Ditto Eric Lindros. I could go on and on. I have spent over 40 years in and around hockey and I can count the jerks I met on one hand. We are lucky and fortunate that there is a code of hockey behavior that is far different from other professional sports (and believe me, I’ve seen a lot) and almost to a one, players represent the game and the sport extremely well.

 

[TheTakedown]

For those that want to keep Kreider, I think the most comparable contract is Anders Lee.

Anders Lee - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

$7M x 7Y

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

You would be well served to get to know some players before you make a statement like that. I got to spend some time with Ryan Strome last year and he was extremely well mannered and very cordial. I know Shane Doan and any parent would be proud to have a young man like him for a son. Same with Mike Smith. Ditto Eric Lindros. I could go on and on. I have spent over 40 years in and around hockey and I can count the jerks I met on one hand. We are lucky and fortunate that there is a code of hockey behavior that is far different from other professional sports (and believe me, I’ve seen a lot) and almost to a one, players represent the game and the sport extremely well.

Never said anything about how they are as people or their behavior. Of all the major sports hockey players seem to be the most down to earth. Just that the "blue collar" mentality is more from the culture of the sport rather than their actual socioeconomic background.

 

[Gardner McKay]

Never said anything about how they are as people or their behavior. Of all the major sports hockey players seem to be the most down to earth. Just that the "blue collar" mentality is more from the culture of the sport rather than their actual socioeconomic background.

Which, in the context of this thread, has no bearing. We are not going to start discussing "privilege" and socioeconomic backgrounds of our youngsters in a roster building thread.

 

[mrhockey193195]

Which, in the context of this thread, has no bearing. We are not going to start discussing "privilege" and socioeconomic backgrounds of our youngsters in a roster building thread.

Sorry, I didn't see this response. Please ignore my above post, and we can get back on topic.

 

[TheBloodyNine]

For the life of me (asides from cap reasons) I cannot understand why these GMs wait until the deadline to make these deals. Some of these rentals for be had before the season starts or in November and teams won’t pay the price. But then they end up paying 80-85% of today’s ask at the deadline and you’ve only got a couple weeks to assimilate the guy into your lineup and get him playing chemistry with your team. It’s such a STUPID accepted way of doing things in the NHL. It’s such terrible terrible asset management. You can get the guy for 82 games and give him/you a full season of really making him a part of your team, instead of trying to bring him in 6 weeks before the playoffs start, especially if your getting the guy hoping he helps put you in the playoffs.

It’s one of disconnects within the NHL paradigm

I think the answer is they are paralyzed by the fear that they might make a bad deal so they don't want to make a real decision on something until there is the equivalent to a gun to their head.

 

[Gardner McKay]

I think the answer is they are paralyzed by the fear that they might make a bad deal so they don't want to make a real decision on something until there is the equivalent to a gun to their head.

I honestly don't know that you could be more wrong. It is called negotiating. GM's generally don't start with their best offer, so why would you accept it?

Edit* I don't mean to be snarky. That isn't my intention. I just don't know how else to phrase this.

 

[True Blue]

literally zero chance of that happening...people might overrate the potential return because we always do, but he isn't being moved for nothing

Agreed on both counts. There is no chance that Gorton lets him get away for nothing. He will either sign a deal to a hometown discount, or he will be moved at the deadline for a deal that will be a slight uptick on what Hayes brought back.

that said though I don't see smith dressing as a forward early on unless other moves are made...because we have so many forwards. if kakko & kravtsov are ready we have 13 forwards that need to be in the lineup.

Eh, don't know about that. While I agree that there are a lot of forwards, almost none of them do I want playing 6-8 minutes on the 4th line. That is a job that Smith can do. 12th forward, who serves as a "protector" of the kids and drops back to play D in case of injuries or penalties. Sure, overpaid at $4m, but if they can afford it, that may be a solid role for him. And again, better he play the 4th line than some of the kids. If camp was starting today, I would not have an issue if he were to be one of the 4th liners.

 

[TheBloodyNine]

I honestly don't know that you could be more wrong. It is called negotiating. GM's generally don't start with their best offer, so why would you accept it?

Edit* I don't mean to be snarky. That isn't my intention. I just don't know how else to phrase this.

I get negotiation, but that doesn't mean that 90% of negotiations lead to deals all in one week. GMs are deathly afraid of making the wrong move. I think that point should be more that obvious after seeing a guy get fired after being on the job for one year in Minnesota.

 

[Gardner McKay]

I get negotiation, but that doesn't mean that 90% of negotiations lead to deals all in one week. GMs are deathly afraid of making the wrong move. I think that point should be more that obvious after seeing a guy get fired after being on the job for one year in Minnesota.

That isn't why Fenton got fired. He got fired because he was an asshole who had no rhyme or reason to his moves.

On the same token, how do guys like Chiarelli and Dorion hold on to jobs for so long? It all goes back to if the move is in line with organizational philosophy.

 

[RangerBoy]

Fenton was like Maccagnan. He wasn’t a very good leading guy for an organization. Both of them were scouts and it takes more than scouting to be the face of the organization. They had issues with people in the building. Fenton has issues with leaks. Everyone talks. Agents. Players. Trainers. Coaches. Things are going to leak. Fenton had no use for analytics. Awful trades. No plan.

 

[Krams]

I've resigned myself to the fact they're gonna trade Kreider. But selfishly, I'd love to see Kreider, Zib, Panarin, Chytil, Kakko and Kravtsov do their thing for half a season. Would be fun to watch.

You'll most likely get to see that, at least until the TDL. Shattenkirk has been bought out, the team isn't in a position where they need to move him immediately. If we're out of contention come then, he'll fetch the usual rental price of a 1st + prospect. If Kravstov/Kakko/etc. are immediate impact players and we're in playoff position, we might even be able to get a little more because Gorts will have leverage--if he doesn't get a package he likes then he could choose to pass entirely and decide to self-rent Kreider for the playoff run. Whether that's a smart move or not is a discussion that can be had at that point, but the option is there and that's a card Gorton can play when negotiating with the buyers.

 

[Nopuckluck]

I e said it before and I’ll say it again here! ADA is a stud D prospect. Great vision and ability to go tape to tape. GREAT hockey IQ. Good enough skating. Good defending ability and most importantly for our group BRASH, COCKY and a tough SOB WHO CAN HANDLE HIMSELF

People say he’s a “character “ issue because of some tweets they didn’t like. Boo Hoo. His opinions mirror the player he is on the ice

[Mod]

 

[True Blue]

People say he’s a “character “ issue because of some tweets they didn’t like. Boo Hoo

Who exactly is saying that right now?

This is beginning to remind me of last year, when the thought was that DeAngelo could do no wrong and it was only stupid Quinn who was holding him back. Now fast forward to this year, and someone said that he is already better than Trouba. Can we see what does this season before he gets anointed as a super star? Here's a crazy thought, how about we see if he can hit 40 points first?

I have come around on him and am ready to root him on, but the bandwagon is speeding downhill at a supersonic rate.

 

[Nopuckluck]

Who exactly is saying that right now?

This is beginning to remind me of last year, when the thought was that DeAngelo could do no wrong and it was only stupid Quinn who was holding him back. Now fast forward to this year, and someone said that he is already better than Trouba. Can we see what does this season before he gets anointed as a super star? Here's a crazy thought, how about we see if he can hit 40 points first?

I have come around on him and am ready to root him on, but the bandwagon is speeding downhill at a supersonic rate.

I agree he needs to prove himself but IMHO all the tools are there to become a #2 or 3 DMan And PP specialist

 

[True Blue]

I agree he needs to prove himself but IMHO all the tools are there to become a #2 or 3 DMan And PP specialist

Lots of players have all the tools. Especially those taken in the first round. Making the most out of those tools is not something everyone does. The rate of failure is greater than the rate of success.

I will also be rooting for him. But we need to see how he develops. That is all that I am saying.

 

[mulli25]

I e said it before and I’ll say it again here! ADA is a stud D prospect. Great vision and ability to go tape to tape. GREAT hockey IQ. Good enough skating. Good defending ability and most importantly for our group BRASH, COCKY and a tough SOB WHO CAN HANDLE HIMSELF

People say he’s a “character “ issue because of some tweets they didn’t like. Boo Hoo. His opinions mirror the player he is on the ice

[Mod]

Maybe its just me, but his implied character issues seem to have a lot more to do with noted lapses in judgment/maturity in his past, combined with ambiguous, though consistent, failures to stick in an NHL lineup under multiple coaches.

But who knows, maybe its the tweets

 

[The Crypto Guy]

How would the Rangers get a worse return now that they don't have a gun to their head with regards to capspace? anything, it allows them to be patient.

Barring a disaster of a season for the NJD, I don't think Hall is going anywhere. They didn't trade for Subban or Gusev and sign Simmonds to be a bottom feeder. While they aren't going to be a legit cup contender, they are definitely a team worthy of mentioning in the playoff conversation.

There is literally no way to know this. The best offer right now could be a two second rounds picks and come the deadline the best they may get offered is the zucc trade, a 2nd and a 3rd.

 

[Gardner McKay]

There is literally no way to know this. The best offer right now could be a two second rounds picks and come the deadline the best they may get offered is the zucc trade, a 2nd and a 3rd.

While I agree, common sense would suggest that without a cap crunch, JG can be more patient and see if a better return is offered.

 

[Chalfdiggity3]

For those that want to keep Kreider, I think the most comparable contract is Anders Lee.

Anders Lee - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

$7M x 7Y

Which is exactly why he can go sit his ass down on another team after trading him at the deadline for a 1st and good prospect

 

[Brooklyn Ranger]

Agreed on both counts. There is no chance that Gorton lets him get away for nothing. He will either sign a deal to a hometown discount, or he will be moved at the deadline for a deal that will be a slight uptick on what Hayes brought back.

Eh, don't know about that. While I agree that there are a lot of forwards, almost none of them do I want playing 6-8 minutes on the 4th line. That is a job that Smith can do. 12th forward, who serves as a "protector" of the kids and drops back to play D in case of injuries or penalties. Sure, overpaid at $4m, but if they can afford it, that may be a solid role for him. And again, better he play the 4th line than some of the kids. If camp was starting today, I would not have an issue if he were to be one of the 4th liners.

Yep, I agree on both counts--especially about Smith. He played the role pretty well up front last season and having him kill penalties gave the coaching staff the ability to avoid overwhelming young players. Since the defense will probably have 2 rookies (and DeAngelo) in the lineup, having that flexibility will be very useful.

I don't believe that throwing young players off the deep end is an effective way of "teaching" them in the NHL. Having Smith shoulder some of the responsibility will give Quinn and co. the ability to ease them into various situations-which will ultimately speed their development.

 

[Blue Blooded]

Smith's flexibility also allows him to fill the 7D and 13F roles simultaneously, so we would lose cap space if we were to send him down as we would have to spend at least $1.4M cap on the replacements while sending him down only saves $1M.

 

[Brooklyn Ranger]

I e said it before and I’ll say it again here! ADA is a stud D prospect. Great vision and ability to go tape to tape. GREAT hockey IQ. Good enough skating. Good defending ability and most importantly for our group BRASH, COCKY and a tough SOB WHO CAN HANDLE HIMSELF

People say he’s a “character “ issue because of some tweets they didn’t like. Boo Hoo. His opinions mirror the player he is on the ice

[Mod]

The problem with ADA is he's entering his 5th year as a professional hockey player--he's not a prospect anymore. He has to build on the progress he made last year and cut out the problems that made Quinn take him out of the lineup for a number of games. How he does in training camp and pre-season matters.

 

[Ola]

There is literally no way to know this. The best offer right now could be a two second rounds picks and come the deadline the best they may get offered is the zucc trade, a 2nd and a 3rd.

There is no trade market (this site isn’t updated with the Callahan cap dump and the Lucic trade, maybe another deal or two, but it doesn’t change the big picture):

There are 31 GMs in this league, 31 teams. Obviously nobody needs to make any changes. A hockey trade is rare in this league.

If a GM makes a trade this time of the year he risks his job. His team could suck and he could face the criticism Dorian did.

If a GM does not make any moves, he can just point at that his team will be good tomorrow. We all know how subjective these things are — there is no way of knowing if that is true or not. So he will keep his job.

Here is a list of the NHL GMs:
List of current NHL general managers - Wikipedia

A NHL GM makes maybe 500k a year, and many of course more than that. Of those 31 GMs (a) for how many is that money really important? (b) How much would those guys make on avg outside in any other position than as a GM for a NHL team? 75k a year? 125k a year?

How many NHL GMs want to take a big risk? Or how many want to sit still in the boat? I don’t know what the split it, 2/29 or 5/26 or 10/21 or whatever. In addition you have all the reasons these guys are giving for doing — nothing. The cap etc. The non-risk adverse GMs tend to get very little cap space to spend fairly fast...

Sure the NHL is a small sample size and unique in many ways, but I work with corporate governance, with everything from financial institutes with huge financial stakes to companies in very strained financial situations, i.e were risk is a big factor that must be handled — and normally under these circumstances not a single trade would ever be made. It’s a — WONDER — that we are seeing any trades. Imagine if it was a corporation and the GMs were mid management responsible for a geographical business area each. They get paid 5x to 10x more with that job than they can get — anywhere — else. It’s also a comfortable and very privileged job that gives an extreme amount of social prestige. They can either do (a) and risk their job or (b) nothing, and don’t risk their job. Out of 100 under normal conditions — would anyone go with (a)?

Come deadline day things change. (i) There is a set price tag, in principle. Sure you can make somewhat better or worse trades, but normally most trades are pretty bad and it’s not like giving a GM of a contender that gives up a late 1st for a rental will have to live with it forever. (ii) You trade for a rental, and don’t commit long-term, and you give up a pick that you know won’t be very high. Sure picks can be protected, but look at the Ott-Col trade. That was protected.

Just saying, it’s possible that it is — more or less — impossible to trade Kreider now.