Speculation: Roster Building Thread 2019-20: Part XXVII

[mas0764]

That's fine but saying he's allergic to winning is kinda ridiculous.

The oilers sucked before they got him. The oilers sucked after he left.

The devil's sucked before they got him. The devil's sucked after he left.

The coyotes have sucked basically since they've existed.... And they'll probably suck well after he's left.

It's absurd to blame the guy for being put on crap teams. That's why he wants to leave.


The rangers sucked before panarin got here. The rangers suck with panarin here. Is that panarins fault?

In fairness, Panarin is quite obviously carrying the Rangers and elevating them from what would otherwise be a dumpster fire.

Is Hall doing that in Arizona? Is he carrying them even in their mediocrity? Weren't they a bubble team before he got there?

I don't think I see their impacts the same.

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

Off-season:
To BUF:
Skjei + Howden + Andersson + DAL 1st '20 + BOS 1st '20
To NYR:
Jack Eichel


Panarin-Eichel-Kakko
Lemieux-Zibanejad-Buch
Kapanen-Chytil-Kravtsov
Frederic-_____-______

Lindgren-Trouba
Staal-ADA
Rykov-Fox

Just eyeballing this, I don't think it works out cap wise depending on what Lemuiex and DeAngelo were signed for

Also where is Heinen in this situation?

 

[mas0764]

So here's the plan:

Deadline:
To BOS:
Kreider (50%) + Mckegg
To NYR:
Heinen + Frederic + BOS 1st

To STL:
Fast
To NYR:
STL 2nd '20

To DAL:
Ryan Strome
To NYR:
DAL 1st '20

To TOR:
Georgiev
To NYR:
Kapanen


Off-season:
To BUF:
Skjei + Howden + Andersson + DAL 1st '20 + BOS 1st '20
To NYR:
Jack Eichel


Panarin-Eichel-Kakko
Lemieux-Zibanejad-Buch
Kapanen-Chytil-Kravtsov
Frederic-_____-______

Lindgren-Trouba
Staal-ADA
Rykov-Fox

Yeah, I'm good with that.

Can we also trade our own first (NYR 1st '20) and a defensive prospect (Keane/Hajek) and maybe something else to move up in the draft? Then add Raymond or Holtz to the equation..... #winning

 

[mas0764]

Just eyeballing this, I don't think it works out cap wise depending on what Lemuiex and DeAngelo were signed for

Also where is Heinen in this situation?

On the fourth line with Frederic... and Morgan Barron?

 

[HockeyBasedNYC]

No reason to force a deal if it just isnt there

 

[The Crypto Guy]

I want nylander...I want us to expand the trade to get him... Georgiev fasth and buch for nylander?

Leafs would be crazy to ever make that trade.

 

[Edge]

When you start talking about Nylander and Eichel, you have to send some talent back you're uncomfortable parting with.

In Eichel's case, that probably includes Chytil and Miller.

In Nylander's case, that probably includes Kravtsov.

We're not just shipping out guys like Howden, Andersson, Skjei, Fast and Buch. The cost will be more than that. Much more.

 

[The Crypto Guy]

When you start talking about Nylander and Eichel, you have to send some talent back you're uncomfortable parting with.

In Eichel's case, that probably includes Chytil and Miller.

In Nylander's case, that probably includes Kravtsov.

We're not just shipping out guys like Howden, Andersson, Skjei, Fast and Buch. The cost will be more than that. Much more.

Exactly. Leafs arent trading away a star, possibly future superstar in Nylander for a 3rd liner like Fast and an inconsistent 2nd liner like Buch.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

"In the salary cap era Stanley Cup winning goalies earn, on average, 4.77% of the cap. No goalie has earned more than 9.07% of the total salary cap" . Jonathon Quick was the highest at 5.8 mill.

In nhl history terms the salary cap era is pretty young so it's a small sample size.

The pens were armed with two monsters who showed up pretty early in that era and I think they really skewed everything. Eventually, we had a cup winning team at least twice, we just failed near the finish line. A LOOOOOT of things went wrong to really screw those teams too.

Jessiman, cherry, sauer and staals eye were critical blows and we still got to the ECF three times, SCF once.

Jettisoning jagr in favor of those atrocious contracts didnt help.

AV turtling us out of two SCF wins was devastating.

Jettisoning stralman for that awful Boyle contract was also brutal. (I never bought the PR spin that it was to sign girardi. An argument can be made that they did it for girardi, I think it was for Boyle though)

Considering all that, the fact we made it as far as we did shows me that we absolutely could've won with Hanks cap hit.

 

[bobbop]

Hall will be on his fourth team in the fall. The Coyotes are way overbooked on salary cap and it will be almost impossible for him to stay. He has been good, not great in Arizona but I can’t see them giving him a $10MM (or anything close) annual contract. That’s the kind of money you give to a guy carrying the team. That ain’t Hall right now.

 

[bobbop]

Go blame the governor for the absurd state income tax

City income tax too.

 

[Kovalev27]

Panarin literally makes everyone he plays with better. He carries a team. If hall outside of one season in his career can’t do that who on earth would give him 10 mil a season? Seems like a very ordinary player at this point in his career

 

[Gardner McKay]

I'm griping about us always paying top dollar when we shouldnt have to. It happens all the time here, Girardi, Staal, Lundqvist, Trouba, etc. None of those guys wanted to leave, none. Total what we overpaid on all of those and it's not chump change and it definitely affected our teams ability to compete.

Go blame the governor for the absurd state income tax

Viper makes a good point here. That absolutely factors into the equation.

Additionally, with regards to Trouba, the athletic article from Custance yesterday paints Gorton as a fairly shrewd negotiator. He didn't negotiate those other three contracts, Sather did. But he did negotiate Panarin and we know for a fact wasn't even close to the highest offer. He did negotiate Zibanejad who, we all agreed was a good deal even at the time of signing (looks 10x better today).

In some situations you get to take (Panarin and Zibanejad) and in some situations you have to give. Although I disagree that Gorton "gave" on the Trouba contract, even if he did slightly it isn't a bad thing. You aren't going to win every deal. You try to win as many as you can.

 

[LORDE]

Jack eichel must be allergic to winning...and yet half this board is willing to give up kakko and a top player for that loser.

Whaaaahhhhhhh? Someone on my ignore no doubt

 

[bobbop]

I believe a lot of the short term action that takes place at this trade deadline will be done with an eye on the 2021 playoffs. It’s looking more and more like a playoff run this year isn’t going to happen this year. That’s three years in a row on the outside. It makes next year a very important year.

Four years open a row out of the playoffs is unacceptable. That’s when we start becoming Buffalo or Arizona. Is what we are doing going to give us a better or worse chance for next year?

That starts with Kreider. Does he stay or go? If he goes, it is very unlikely he signs during the summer. That’s just not the way it works. Will be team have a chance to be better next year with or without Kreider and the assets he returns?

Is there a chance to deal some excess from the defense stockpile?

Are Buchnevich and Skeji part of the core going forward? If not, can they be monetized?

There are a lot of moving parts. It is the most fascinating trade deadline I’ve seen in many years because while there are expiring contracts, they are players who could clearly be part of the core going forward. There logjams in two critical positions.

I don’t envy Gorton right now. He is going to have to take some big swings. I hope he does a lot more than just kicks tires.

 

[Edge]

All excellent points about Hall in the thread. Will he get $10 million? Eh, probably not --- though it only takes one team.

My guess is that he'll probably get around $9-$9.5 million. People will look at the pedigree, the age, the Hart, and the teams he's played on, and someone will give him a big offer.

Just so long as it's not the Rangers making that offer, power to them.

 

[LORDE]

Eh, I get what you're saying, but that's kind of like saying if food needs spice to be eaten, then it wasn't a good dish.

Personally, there are things I like and things I don't like about NYC. But everything comes with a trade off. I've always been fairly adaptable to my surroundings, so I have no problem starting my day in my small town, surrounded by farms, and finishing my day in Times Square.

What I find interesting about a lot of people who leave NY is that even when it's "not for them" or they pursue other paths in life, they are almost always identifiable as New Yorkers. It might manifest itself in different ways, some more subtle than others. But I can usually tell pretty quickly if someone is from NY, even if they've lived elsewhere for years.

20 plus years in FL and when asked I say "I'm from NY"

 

[bobbop]

One additional point...there are empty seats at The Garden. A lot of empty seats. Much worse than any time 1997-2004. That’s got to be turning some heads.

 

[Kovalev27]

20 plus years in FL and when asked I say "I'm from NY"

Now that I’ve finally left and moved to Boston, i will never say I’m from Boston. I’m a New Yorker living in Boston

 

[Gardner McKay]

All excellent points about Hall in the thread. Will he get $10 million? Eh, probably not --- though it only takes one team.

My guess is that he'll probably get around $9-$9.5 million. People will look at the pedigree, the age, the Hart, and the teams he's played on, and someone will give him a big offer.

Just so long as it's not the Rangers making that offer, power to them.

Only question I have here Edge is, do you really think he accepts $9-9.5 million? If I am Hall and his agent, I am saying that Skinner got $9 million and Panarin got $11.6 and that my client is significantly closer to Panarin than he is Skinner.

Obviously the market needs to be there for Hall but I have a hard time imagining it not being there.

 

[ETTER DE]

Kapanen + ? For Georgiev and Fast. What is the +? A second round pick Maybe ?

Why would Rangers do this? Fast is better and would most likely have a lower cap-hit.. Why not just trade Georgiev for best offer?

 

[Kovalev27]

Only question I have here Edge is, do you really think he accepts $9-9.5 million? If I am Hall and his agent, I am saying that Skinner got $9 million and Panarin got $11.6 and that my client is significantly closer to Panarin than he is Skinner.

Obviously the market needs to be there for Hall but I have a hard time imagining it not being there.

only thing is like I said if you’re spending 10 plus mil on a guy he better be able to make guys around him that are dirt cheap that much better. Like Crosby or Panarin do. Those guys play with 3rd liners and make them look great. If you have to put up for 2 more 10 mil players because this guy doesn’t carry your team he’s not worth it. And he is proving he can’t carry a team or make them much better

 

[The Crypto Guy]

Why would Rangers do this? Fast is better and would most likely have a lower cap-hit.. Why not just trade Georgiev for best offer?

Fast is better than what...Kap? Not even close.

 

[Gardner McKay]

only thing is like I said if you’re spending 10 plus mil on a guy he better be able to make guys around him that are dirt cheap that much better. Like Crosby or Panarin do. Those guys play with 3rd liners and make them look great. If you have to put up for 2 more 10 mil players because this guy doesn’t carry your team he’s not worth it. And he is proving he can’t carry a team or make them much better

I agree. I wouldn't pay Hall $10 million. But, I think it is a bit arbitrary to set that number as the line for a guy that "has to carry the team/make those around him better" when you have guys like Skinner making $9 million and he can't even carry a line, let a lone his team. In my opinion if I am looking to try to justify Hall at $10 million, I'd say that he is a steal at $10 million compared Skinner at $9 million. I'd also take Hall at $10m over Hayes at $7 million by that same logic (again, I don't want Hall at or near $10 million).

 

[Edge]

Only question I have here Edge is, do you really think he accepts $9-9.5 million? If I am Hall and his agent, I am saying that Skinner got $9 million and Panarin got $11.6 and that my client is significantly closer to Panarin than he is Skinner.

Obviously the market needs to be there for Hall but I have a hard time imagining it not being there.

I don't know, it depends.

Is the offer coming from a situation where he can thrive and maybe hit some major accomplishments? Is the offer from a team in a state where he can pocket more of his money?

Skinner got $9 million, but he had to go to Buffalo to get it. Panarin got $11.6, but Hall's agent using that contract as an example probably hurts more than helps. If I'm a GM, it only emphasizes that while Panarin and Hall might've started out in similar neighborhoods, they're definitely trending in different directions.

I think Hall is probably at the point of his career where he knows his next decision is his "home". This is his first chance to really be where he wants to be --- not where he's drafted, or where he's traded. Something tells me this might not come down to the highest offer.