Speculation: Roster Building Thread 2019-20: Part XXVII

[mas0764]

Yes, because the kid drafted 6 spots ahead of another kid, always ends up the better player.

I didn't say that, did I?

But I'd much rather be drafting first overall than 30th overall.

Wonder why that is.

Oh, because the best players tend to be found higher.

Of course it's no guarantee. But I want Holtz or Raymond or even Rossi. I don't want Holloway.

That difference of player in this draft is well worth trading away Kreider.

 

[mas0764]

Adam Fox is pretty much a bona fide star in the making at this point, and quite possibly an eventual Rangers captain.

Maybe. I see Fox as potentially more of a #2.

If he, or Miller, or whoever, also end up as stars, great. But my point is, even after Chytil and Kravtsov and Miller and Lundqvist were drafted, we were still star-hunting last year. We got Kakko.

Well, I'm still star-hunting. I want one more top-line forward in the bag.

FWIW I think I also want another second-line forward too, but we have time on that.

 

[Ola]

Rebuilding can feel like a war. As such, I think the longer it goes on, fear and despair start to play increasingly larger roles.

The gung-ho attitude at the start of a war wears off after a while - things don't always go according to plan, and multiples years feel a lot longer than you thought it would initially.

You start to wonder if it will ever end, or how you can possibly survive without something or someone you've had up until that point. You don't think you can ever replace what you've lost, and the human condition dictates you try to find the quickest path to mask, if not end your pain and discomfort. You start contemplating worst case scenarios a lot more. What if we become like that team, or those group of people? What if this is the best we can do?

People start to drop off. People who knew the plan for the start to say "Yeah, but I've given it some thought and I feel different. This is different."

And in some cases, there are new things to consider. But there are also a lot of instances where fatigue has set in and people just want it to be better....now.

People bristle at the notion, but the arguments for Zucc, Hayes, McD and Kreider have a lot of overlap. Some of the words get moved around a little, and the order of statements change, but I think most people would be surprised if we undertook an exercise where we posted a statement about losing/not re-signing a player and then gave them a multiple choice option to guess which player it was associated with.

Great stuff.

The attitude inside the locker-room is as big concern. I think somewhere the breaking point is when players cannot feel like they are doing a good job. I think they still can do that here for us. But when everyone start to feel that the kids should make a difference, have a bigger impact, and you instead of getting results or improvements is out of the POs 6 weeks into the season -- I think those EDM teams have been illustrative of how damaging that can be for kids.

I wouldn't say that another crappy year isn't possible. And the argument that we could need more top talent is of course (always?) legit. But OTOH, its never easy.

I also think its important to remember that we have seen plenty of team start to make some movement with the result that everyone think you are for real, but in hindsight the problems had basically not even started. Colorado had a boatload of pts that year under Roy. Tampa made the ECF with a really young team and then missed the POs.

 

[mas0764]

Unless bread gets hurt there should be no problem getting good production from him in 5 years. He has too many tools to fall off that quick.

I've seen people compare Panarin to MSL.

Let's cross our fingers, eh? MSL also was a late starter, he was not a guy with a ton of NHL miles on his body, and he didn't truly explode till age 28. And then kept going as a top producer until damn near age 40.

Man, if Panarin could have that kind of longevity.... if he's worth a second contract here in NYC.... if at age 35 he still has 4 more ppg seasons left in him.... we will win lots.

Lots and lots. And lots.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Maybe. I see Fox as potentially more of a #2.

If he, or Miller, or whoever, also end up as stars, great. But my point is, even after Chytil and Kravtsov and Miller and Lundqvist were drafted, we were still star-hunting last year. We got Kakko.

Well, I'm still star-hunting. I want one more top-line forward in the bag.

FWIW I think I also want another second-line forward too, but we have time on that.

Ive agreed with everything you've posted on the last few pages except the Fox thing.

He is already top pair worthy. Consistent PP1 time is the only thing standing between him and being right up there for the calder.

He's been absurd since December on a team that isn't very good. He's outplayed every single Ranger defenseman in recent history, including 13-14 McDonagh.

 

[charliemurphy]

I'll say this.

I'm way more open to the Rangers re-signing Kreider on the open market this offseason AFTER trading him away for a rental haul, than simply keeping him and signing him.

I think both not getting a return for him and investing a 6-7 year contract in him at 6-7 million are bad things.

But I'd live with the latter if we picked up 2 young cost controlled, high value assets while doing so.

I know that never seems to happen, but I don't know why you couldn't approach Kreider and his agent now and say, hey, we are clearly not going to be playing playoff hockey. Here, go try to get a ring somewhere. But if you like it here, give us first dibs come June.

I agree. Kreider is a smart guy. He understands whats happening. If the rumors about him taking a team discount are true then him, his agent and Gorton should sit down and work something out where he's traded to a contender to get an opportunity to win a cup because it isn't happening here for a while. Come back in the summer, sign at a home discount and put the C on his sweater for the next 5 seasons regardless if he turns into a 3rd liner in a couple of seasons from now.
Not trading Kreider shouldn't be an option regardless of the Larry Brooks' out there. Its just not smart management for a team like the Rangers and where they want to be long term to not trade him. He's the most valuable rental on the market.

 

[Avery16]

 

[charliemurphy]

I'm anxious to know if anything can get done with Carolina. They have a stockpile of picks and young talent. Would be curious to know what a package of Skjei and Georgiev would get in return.

 

[Avery16]

 

[Shesterkybomb]

We don’t know that. We all hope so but either way he’s here and performing. Time will tell. But I see less issue with banking on him performing through the majority of his contract than I do Kreider through the next 7 of his upcoming contract.

I think it's obvious that nobody has a time machine.

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

I agree that the Rangers are dummies for giving up on Graves without really giving him a shot, but I doubt they're losing sleep over it.

Plus/minus is such a relatively useless stat, and playing predominantly with Cale Makar probably isn't hurting Graves

 

[Edge]

The contending teams that need goalies don't have 4m in cap space this TDD though.

I think if Lundqvist was open to it, teams like Toronto, Colorado and few others would find a way to make it work.

 

[mas0764]

Ive agreed with everything you've posted on the last few pages except the Fox thing.

He is already top pair worthy. Consistent PP1 time is the only thing standing between him and being right up there for the calder.

He's been absurd since December on a team that isn't very good. He's outplayed every single Ranger defenseman in recent history, including 13-14 McDonagh.

Well, I hope you are right. I'm certainly rooting for it. I just worry about his size and that impacting his ability to round out his game to be a true #1 Defenseman who draws all the tough assignments. I think you have to do that to enter Hedman or Doughty territory as a clear cut #1 overall.

The sickest thing about this Rangers rebuild is, while other than Kakko (and Panarin, but I'm asterisk-ing him because I'm not sure how long into our next hopeful dynasty he will be producing at a superstar level), we don't have really any sure-fire "stars" on board yet..... we are ridiculously deep with like, top second line talent and second pair or #2 defenseman types.

Chytil
Kravtsov
Buchnevich
Zibanejad
Strome

All young players who would be pluses on the second line (well, Strome as long as he's not carrying the line).

On D... no true #1, but here are the guys I suspect end up as #2-#4 caliber defensemen someday:

Miller
DeAngelo
Fox
Lundkvist
Trouba (already is)
Skjei (think he's ok as a lesser second pair defenseman)
Lindgren
Hajek
Rykov
Keane
Robertson
Jones

I mean... wow.

 

[Cassano]

I think if Lundqvist was open to it, teams like Toronto, Colorado and few others would find a way to make it work.

But those teams already have decent starting goalies. I imagine there are other pressing priorities for those teams.

 

[Edge]

But those teams already have decent starting goalies. I imagine there are other pressing priorities for those teams.

Based on conversations, neither of those teams is married to their current starting goalie.

If they could get Lundqvist at $4 million, and not have to give up a ton (Rangers wouldn't ask for a ton), I'd give both good odds of pulling the trigger on that option.

 

[ETTER DE]

Did Kapanen play in the Ranger game? I didn’t get to see it end-to-end but I certainly didn’t notice him if he did play.

Kapanen was good. Created some chances with his speed, had an assist. On ice for one against.

 

[eco's bones]

Im ok paying him a little more than I am currently comfortable with if he accepts a trade and he doesn't have a full no move.

When you have both Kreider and Zibanejad powering towards the net that's a tough line to defend against and they've been doing that for several weeks now.

But anyway there comes a time when you're not selling vets anymore and where maybe you a few of them to lead--Panarin, Zibanejad and Trouba might all fall into that category but as the team improves and you're bringing in more kids it's not the same as when you start the process. There's alway stages in the process and IMO with Panarin and Zibanejad we have two very legit 1st line players and it's important to have players around them who help them do what they do best and Mika and Kreider have been seriously good together.

All that said what other teams might give for Kreider in a rental situation should be looked at--as for instance if St. Louis really would trade a 1st and Klostin--that would be a good return.

 

[eco's bones]

I have maintained that all along. I think that 4 of the top 6 for the near and medium term are Trouba, DeAngelo, Fox & Lindgren. It could well be that as things progress, prospects like Keane & Lundqvist are moved at a part of a package to get an LD that can play with Trouba. Meanwhile, Gorton searches for a Lindgren-like player to pair with DeAngelo.

Lindgren and Fox paired together is so solid--you can see the potential of a legit future 1st pairing as they get more acclimated into the league. I really like both of them but speaking of Lindgren---he's got that edge but he's super smart and competitive. Very very good defensively already.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

Well, I hope you are right. I'm certainly rooting for it. I just worry about his size and that impacting his ability to round out his game to be a true #1 Defenseman who draws all the tough assignments. I think you have to do that to enter Hedman or Doughty territory as a clear cut #1 overall.

The sickest thing about this Rangers rebuild is, while other than Kakko (and Panarin, but I'm asterisk-ing him because I'm not sure how long into our next hopeful dynasty he will be producing at a superstar level), we don't have really any sure-fire "stars" on board yet..... we are ridiculously deep with like, top second line talent and second pair or #2 defenseman types.

Chytil
Kravtsov
Buchnevich
Zibanejad
Strome

All young players who would be pluses on the second line (well, Strome as long as he's not carrying the line).

On D... no true #1, but here are the guys I suspect end up as #2-#4 caliber defensemen someday:

Miller
DeAngelo
Fox
Lundkvist
Trouba (already is)
Skjei (think he's ok as a lesser second pair defenseman)
Lindgren
Hajek
Rykov
Keane
Robertson
Jones

I mean... wow.

Panarin's a superstar with an * because of his age and may not be the right age for the eventual dynasty. Kakko is definitely a sure-fire superstar, you already know this today. And Zib and Trouba are only 2nd line, 2nd pairing players as is every prospect in the system. So by your definition they need another superstar forward and how many superstar defenseman?

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

@Edge in the same vein of Trouba becoming available, who are some LD in a similar situation the Rangers might target going forward in your opinion?

Just curious if they have anyone they're looking at

 

[Tawnos]

@Edge in the same vein of Trouba becoming available, who are some LD in a similar situation the Rangers might target going forward in your opinion?

Just curious if they have anyone they're looking at

Darnell Nurse and Nikita Zadorov are the main top-4 LDs that are RFAs this summer and are in their mid-20s.

 

[gravey9]

Honest Question: If we believe that CK will get 7x7 on open market from someone, why not offer CK the longest contract we can at a cap-friendly AAV? Give him a retirement deal where he's not leaving money on the table.

I believe the Rangers can offer up to 8 years of term for their own UFAs. Is it crazy to offer Kreider 8x5.5? That would be 44m total, so he wouldn't be leaving much on the table. Give him a NMC in the first 3-4 years to compensate.

As for CK getting 7x7 from another team in the off-season... there aren't many contenders that can offer CK that. Avs are the only one for sure. Maybe the Penguins? Would the lightning have space? Do we really expect CK to go west? Seems like an east coast guy. I could see the Islanders, Devils and Canadians making massive offers for him. But would he want to play for those teams? Point is, there's likely a creative deal to be made that may not impact the cap as badly as we think if the trade offers on the table aren't that great.

Also, I know these trades don't happen often. But I wonder if there's a Stone-like deal out there we're not thinking of. Like is there a deal to be made with the Lightning (or similar team) where they trade a first rounder + prospect and an NHL forward with term for a signed CK?

 

[effen]

I agree that the Rangers are dummies for giving up on Graves without really giving him a shot, but I doubt they're losing sleep over it.

Plus/minus is such a relatively useless stat, and playing predominantly with Cale Makar probably isn't hurting Graves

NYR got a year of top-pairing level play from Nick Holden for a 4th rounder. They then traded him for the draft pick that became Joey Keane, tearing up the AHL right now.

Where's the accolades for that one? You can do that 25 times with any franchise.

 

[mas0764]

Panarin's a superstar with an * because of his age and may not be the right age for the eventual dynasty. Kakko is definitely a sure-fire superstar, you already know this today. And Zib and Trouba are only 2nd line, 2nd pairing players as is every prospect in the system. So by your definition they need another superstar forward and how many superstar defenseman?

I'm making projections of where I see the pieces we have fitting in. Everyone including the team does the same thing when thinking long term. I don't "know" this but you don't "know" any different. Again, it's projection and it's necessary.

I project we lack one more superstar forward. If you feel differently feel free to argue that.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

I'm making projections of where I see the pieces we have fitting in. Everyone including the team does the same thing when thinking long term. I don't "know" this but you don't "know" any different. Again, it's projection and it's necessary.

I project we lack one more superstar forward. If you feel differently feel free to argue that.

It just seems like you're waiting for the ultimate, fantasy scenario. They have two top line players in Zib and Panarin, they have Kreider and Chytil with guys like Kravtsov on the way. They have a top line player in the making in Kakko. They're loaded at right D, with more on the way, so much so they're going to have to trade one away. Personally, I think they need to shore up the left side more than they need another superstar forward. And there's no guarantee they're getting this forward in either of the next two drafts. You can't be constantly chasing your tail waiting for that "next guy."