Value of: ROR to the Leafs at the deadline.

[Hellcat]

So...using your logic... Tiger Williams was really a penalty box rather than a hockey player since he spent 300 minutes a season in there....If you a bunch of centers, then you can interchange them on your wings. It isn't that hard to understand. He is a natural center and a very good two-way 200ft one at that.

... by that logic every player is a bench because they spend more than half the game on the bench. If your coach deploys you more often as a winger than a center, you're a winger. What you were drafted as is immaterial. the fact you play occasionally at a position is immaterial. It the amount of ATOI that decides what position you are labeled as or if you are Ovie the hockey writers association thinks you are a RW, LW and a Center.

 

[Hellcat]

Lol. Ok. So we both have opinions and only I have to prove them. I asked because I don't know where to find them and I'm at work. If you don't want to then we'll have to assume neither of us know what we are talking about.

LOL, I like your logic. I always said that I felt he was a shitty defender, which is an opinion. You said that based on stats he's not. My POV is an opinion based on what I watch, your's is based what you said you read or watched, I want to see that too to understand the context of your POV. Not calling you a liar , I just do not see what you are telling me he is.

 

[PocketNines]

... by that logic every player is a bench because they spend more than half the game on the bench. If your coach deploys you more often as a winger than a center, you're a winger. What you were drafted as is immaterial. the fact you play occasionally at a position is immaterial. It the amount of ATOI that decides what position you are labeled as or if you are Ovie the hockey writers association thinks you are a RW, LW and a Center.

This is some very poor logic. If a switch hitter in baseball bats more from the right than the left, he is not a right handed hitter. He is still a switch hitter.

Are you truly unfamiliar with players who play both center and wing, this is a new concept to you, really?

 

[jjniner]

Alright Toronto.. give us what you think is your best offer for ROR. Let’s see if we can negotiate? If not, we can ask moderator to close the thread. We will take a cap dump back in the process. So let’s have it! We don’t like it, we move on to the next. Thanks for playing!!

 

[PocketNines]

Alright Toronto.. give us what you think is your best offer for ROR. Let’s see if we can negotiate? If not, we can ask moderator to close the thread. We will take a cap dump back in the process. So let’s have it! We don’t like it, we move on to the next. Thanks for playing!!

They have been ... here is a huge thread on it ...

 

[Hellcat]

This is some very poor logic. If a switch hitter in baseball bats more from the right than the left, he is not a right handed hitter. He is still a switch hitter.

Are you truly unfamiliar with players who play both center and wing, this is a new concept to you, really?

Logical fallacy at its best. Ouch!

If a hitter switch hits, he does not stop being a hitter, he's still a hitter. If I'm a 2B righty and chose to hit left, that does not make me a catcher, it makes me a switch hitting 2B. If you are a winger and shoot left and you then decide to shoot right, your still a winger. If I'm a pitcher and I throw right then decide to throw left, it does not make me an OF, it make me ambidextrous.

Just in case you want to try and be cute with more logical fallacies, I'll save you the time, If you play wing and chose to skate backwards all game, you're still a winger. If you only shoot the puck with your back hand, you're still a winger. If you are -28 +/- you're still a winger but I'm not sure why you are getting any ice time, you're a shitty winger. If you spend more time in the press box than on the ice and you 're a winger, you're still a winger. If you wear your helmet backwards, and you're a winger, you're still a winger. If you are a winger and have a playoff beard in October, you're still a winger

It's time at that position that dictates what position label you get.

 

[bert]

You seem angry. I don't have a narrative. I have an opinion based on the information I've received. I don't have hostility to people with other opinions but I do need facts to have reason to change mine. All I've got from you is you have a height bias. I'm sure no 5' 10 defenseman have ever won the Cup. That was a valuable insight.

If thats all you were able to take from the post I quoted then you arent bothering to read every sentence.

 

[Hellcat]

ROR last 5 years Corsi%

2018-19	55.0
2019-20	53.1
2020-21	53.7
2021-22	51.8
2022-23	48.6

He's not the ROR you think he is, steady decline YOY for ROR.

His PDO this year is 91.3, previous 4 years were 102, 102, 102, 104 (rounded up or down).

His FO% is at 53.4%, previous 4 years 56.9, 56.6, 58.8, 56.8

What trend you see? Sorry the truth hurts ROR is on the downswing of his career. When you get someone posting that ROR is worth a 1st, a top prospect AND a left 2nd/3rd line tweener, that TBH triggered me.

 

[bert]

You have a lot of opinions but not seeing a lot of facts.


I think your wrong. If he plays a "too risky game" why is he among the best defensive numbers in the league? Just lucky I guess.

Looked unreal on Saturday.... Heavy fast forcheck and he gets exposed but hey if you want the leafs out in round 1 again keep him in there.

 

[bert]

Yes I was being sarcastic. Sorry if that wasn't clear. If it was thanks for the examples to make my point.

Are you comparing Sandin to Campbell and Rafalski? Seriously? Campbell is an elite skater. Rafalski is one of the best D men from his era. Sandin just got exposed on Saturday night by a non playoff team. These two things arent the same. Girard who is a way better player than Sandin and skates like the wind ironically got destroyed by the guy you dont think the leafs need in the playoffs last year. Small d men have a hard time in the playoffs unless they are absolutely studs.

 

[bleedblue1223]

LOL, oh you're one of those people? Where's my YouTube algorithm that only lets me live in my echo chamber.

ROR last 5 years Corsi%

[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]2018-19[/TD]
[TD]55.0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2019-20[/TD]
[TD]53.1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2020-21[/TD]
[TD]53.7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2021-22[/TD]
[TD]51.8[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2022-23[/TD]
[TD]48.6[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

He's not the ROR you think he is, steady decline YOY for ROR.

His PDO this year is 91.3, previous 4 years were 102, 102, 102, 104 (rounded up or down).

His FO% is at 53.4%, previous 4 years 56.9, 56.6, 58.8, 56.8

What trend you see? Sorry the truth hurts ROR is on the downswing of his career. When you get someone posting that ROR is worth a 1st, a top prospect AND a left 2nd/3rd line tweener, that TBH triggered me.

Using PDO as an argument for decline and not that it's just a wildly unsustainable and weird year for him is poor use of that stat.

If any player had a PDO that low, the initial gut reaction of anyone should be, well that'll revert back to the mean, only a matter of time. I can't tell you what O'Reilly will be like down the stretch or in the playoffs, I know his numbers won't be this bad in the coming years. Just how if we look at players with PDOs that are wildly high, they will come back down to earth, it's simply inevitable.

 

[Hellcat]

Using PDO as an argument for decline and not that it's just a wildly unsustainable and weird year for him is poor use of that stat.

If any player had a PDO that low, the initial gut reaction of anyone should be, well that'll revert back to the mean, only a matter of time. I can't tell you what O'Reilly will be like down the stretch or in the playoffs, I know his numbers won't be this bad in the coming years. Just how if we look at players with PDOs that are wildly high, they will come back down to earth, it's simply inevitable.

Fair enough, point remains every individual stat PDO excluded show him on a decline and then there is this.

and this https://www.silverskatefestival.org/the-decline-of-hockey-players-skills-with-age/

that illustrades most players peak at 27, ROR is a week away from being 32.

Most 32 year olds don't get better with age, the vast majority don't get better with age. He is on the downslope of his career.

 

[BlueBaron]

Are you comparing Sandin to Campbell and Rafalski? Seriously? Campbell is an elite skater. Rafalski is one of the best D men from his era. Sandin just got exposed on Saturday night by a non playoff team. These two things arent the same. Girard who is a way better player than Sandin and skates like the wind ironically got destroyed by the guy you dont think the leafs need in the playoffs last year. Small d men have a hard time in the playoffs unless they are absolutely studs.

You are way to invested in your OPINION. You might be right but haven't really made much of case. Maybe he is too slow.

Hardly matter. Your whole tirade came because I said Management doesn't seem interested in moving him. I suggest you take your case to Dubas.

 

[jjniner]

NHL Top Players: Top 20 Centers | NHL.com

NHL Network reveals best of current crop

www.nhl.com

 

[BlueBaron]

NHL Top Players: Top 20 Centers | NHL.com

NHL Network reveals best of current crop

www.nhl.com

Aug 22. Things have changed a little.

 

[Namikaze Minato]

NHL Top Players: Top 20 Centers | NHL.com

NHL Network reveals best of current crop

www.nhl.com

Dont see Tage Thompson on that list, maybe we should trade for him since hes not even a top 20 center, should be cheaper than ROR.

 

[Hellcat]

The truth that ROR is a shell of his former self at 31 yrs old? Yeah, ok

31 years , 357 days, he's 32 in a week. Statically players start to decline at 27, why is it so hard for you to believe that ROR is just another athlete that has reached the end of his runway? He's 6 years past when most players punch out for their final game. there are only 38 players from his draft year still playing 14 of them are 1st rounders, considering he was not a 1st rounder, I'd say the old fella had a pretty good run, and has beat the odds, that run is coming to an end.

 

[Mike Liut]

31 years , 357 days, he's 32 in a week. Statically players start to decline at 27, why is it so hard for you to believe that ROR is just another athlete that has reached the end of his runway? He's 6 years past when most players punch out for their final game. there are only 38 players from his draft year still playing 14 of them are 1st rounders, considering he was not a 1st rounder, I'd say the old fella had a pretty good run, and has beat the odds, that run is coming to an end.

A slow decline and being a shell of his former self are two different things.

I’m not sure how Crosby and Ovi can still play with their wheelchairs.

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

Fair enough, point remains every individual stat PDO excluded show him on a decline and then there is this.

View attachment 643888


and this https://www.silverskatefestival.org/the-decline-of-hockey-players-skills-with-age/

that illustrades most players peak at 27, ROR is a week away from being 32.

Most 32 year olds don't get better with age, the vast majority don't get better with age. He is on the downslope of his career.

I don't think there is any question that he has declined. But that isn't really the point. Nobody is saying he still one of top 5 all around centers in the game. Nobody is saying he is going to win Conn Smythe this year. What we are saying is on a good team he can still be a key piece to put you over top in playoffs. He can be used for difficult matchups, chip in a bit of offense, and free up your stars from having to contain other team's top center. Maybe Leafs don't need that. Maybe they do and don't want to pay for it. But Leafs are so close and for them to lose in first round again because they didn't improve enough at deadline would be a real shame.

 

[TurgPavs]

A slow decline and being a shell of his former self are two different things.

I’m not sure how Crosby and Ovi can still play with their wheelchairs.

In the last two years Toronto has been eliminated by Montreal and Tampa, those 2 teams combined had 19 players over the age of 30...........

 

[Habs Halifax]

He's a swiss army knife that gives a playoff team lots of flexibility where to slot him up front ... versatility is a good thing and yes he is a fine center. I don't understand this semantic debate since the takeaway is that he's more-than because of this, not less-than

He's a good player and I do value the versatility. I was not trying to devalue him. I just don't think he is that true center type. He's a winger who can play center. There are lots of them in the NHL.

 

[HuGort]

I think Leafs want to make major move they just don't know if they can do it. Capwise I mean

 

[LTIR]

ROR last 5 years Corsi%

[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]2018-19[/TD]
[TD]55.0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2019-20[/TD]
[TD]53.1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2020-21[/TD]
[TD]53.7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2021-22[/TD]
[TD]51.8[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2022-23[/TD]
[TD]48.6[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

He's not the ROR you think he is, steady decline YOY for ROR.

His PDO this year is 91.3, previous 4 years were 102, 102, 102, 104 (rounded up or down).

His FO% is at 53.4%, previous 4 years 56.9, 56.6, 58.8, 56.8

What trend you see? Sorry the truth hurts ROR is on the downswing of his career. When you get someone posting that ROR is worth a 1st, a top prospect AND a left 2nd/3rd line tweener, that TBH triggered me.

For a rental declining or improving doesn't matter. You are paying for the current player + his experience.

Does it matter to a club if Max Domi, Bjugstad, Kane, Toews or any other pending UFA is improving or declining?

The guy was on a 25 goal pace, has size, wins draws and kills penalties. Only concerning part is his health and effectiveness after this injury. Well other than him being -28 in 36 GP this year

 

[sfvega]

31 years , 357 days, he's 32 in a week. Statically players start to decline at 27, why is it so hard for you to believe that ROR is just another athlete that has reached the end of his runway? He's 6 years past when most players punch out for their final game. there are only 38 players from his draft year still playing 14 of them are 1st rounders, considering he was not a 1st rounder, I'd say the old fella had a pretty good run, and has beat the odds, that run is coming to an end.

Which is fine for career trajectory, but you're not signing him for a 6-year contract. You're trading for him for a stretch run. When we won the Cup, Bouwmeester had a great postseason at 35, and guys like Vladdy and Schenn who were in their prime had down postseasons and they were 27 and in their prime. You can think of plenty veterans who were integral to playoff runs. Lidstrom, Justin Williams, Hossa, Killorn, Brind'Amour, Kunitz, whomever. Whose experience was good, but their play in those close games was even better. He was by far our best skater last postseason, and our 2nd best was Perron who turned 34 the day after the playoffs ended. Meanwhile guys in their physical prime kinda disappeared.

Pertaining to Toronto, when you lost to Columbus in the bubble, two of their top 3 scorers in the series were 30+. When you lost to Montreal, two of their top 5 scorers were 35+ and their goalie was 33. When you lost to Tampa last year, 3 of their top 5 scorers were over 30. Both times you lost to Boston, their goalie was over 30 and 2/3 out of their top 5 scorers respectively were over 30. Washington 2 of their top 4 scorers were 30+, not including Ovi who also was. Then we get into how many Toronto fans don't want to deal premium assets for rentals because of how good Boston is. Boston headed by forwards who are all in their early-mid 20s, I'd assume.

It's entirely plausible that ROR has another strong postseason with whomever gets him. The price vs. the risk could be the hang-up, which is understandable. I think the deadline is going to be tough dealing all around.

 

[jjniner]

2023 NHL trade deadline: Ranking top 15 players teams should target

The Bruins are clearly in "go for it" mode thanks to their record-setting first half. We highlight 15 players who will likely be on the trade market in the coming weeks, some of whom would fit in nicely with Jim Montgomery's juggernaut.

www.yahoo.com

Nice goal by ROR. Could be yours!