Ron Francis

[periferal]

Fair. I have no idea about his time in Carolina so can’t comment.

He was there 5 years...

• Only drafted one player of consequence (Aho) and busted on a majority of picks.
• Team never made the playoffs.
• Hired a coach who was later found out was using racist slurs against a Hurricanes player.

What do you think now?

#Francis

 

[Gniwder]

Turn the telescope around...

What has Francis done in Carolina or so far with Seattle (horrible coach hire and lack of maximizing expansion draft rules) that warrants anyone giving him benefit of the doubt.

This isn't a 1st time GM folks.

Didn't Carolina have an internal salary cap back then? Seems like their popularity is a very recent event.

What I don't understand is why he didn't at least hit the cap floor in the expansion draft. That would still leave $20M to make deals. I would hope that Seattle doesn't have an internal cap considering the arena is sold out. If they do, I'm going to stick to being a Wings fan. Doesn't really make sense for the team to be cheap right now.

 

[periferal]

Ofcourse they deserve the benefit of doubt. You think the ownership team did NOT know about Francis' past when they hired him? And do you really think the 2nd chance should extend just to the expansion draft and moves (or lack-of) made during that one event?

While I understand the frustration on the lack of moves, nobody knows the big picture that Francis has (or doesnt have). We need to give him some time to actually let his actions do the talking and see what the team looks like going into the season and more importantly performs during the season.

You do realize that sometimes ownership groups make mistakes right?

And would you be ok if Seattle hired Mike Milbury to be their GM?

 

[Taluss]

He was there 5 years...

• Only drafted one player of consequence (Aho) and busted on a majority of picks.
• Team never made the playoffs.
• Hired a coach who was later found out was using racist slurs against a Hurricanes player.

What do you think now?

#Francis

Damn… alright. Definitely an iffy hire in the first place then.

But still. I’ll echo fistfullofbeer here. Ownership obviously knew about this and still wanted him. So yeah it’s not hard to say it’s an iffy start but let’s wait till the end of the off-season at least to fully judge.

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

You do realize that sometimes ownership groups make mistakes right?

And would you be ok if Seattle hired Mike Milbury to be their GM?

Ofcourse they make mistakes. But it's too early to make a call right now is what I am saying. Nobody here is saying let's give Francis a pass. All people are saying is let's wait to see how things actually go this season before we make that call. Going into full panic mode over the expansion draft is not enough evidence in my mind to call for his head.

You don't give people a 2nd chance and NOT give them a chance to prove themselves.

 

[theimmortal1]

All of the high priced players have one issue or another, but he should have taken a flyer on some of the players with shorter contracts. Price, Duchene, Johansen, etc weren't viable because their contracts are 4+ yrs, but there were some more viable options:
-Tarasenko - Shoulder injury with 2 yrs left in contract
-Domi - Shoulder injury, will probably miss half the season, 1 yr left
-JvR - Overpaid but only 2 years left
-Shattenkirk - Right handed PMD with 2 years left, only looks good on high power offensive teams
-Niederreiter - Slightly overpaid but 1 yr left

Even if they aren't in the long term plans, they could have been flipped for picks at the trade deadline. I really think the top 2 were complete misses, injuries are a part of hockey, you have to take that kind of risk to build a team. The advantage of the expansion draft is that the remaining contract is short vs having to sign an UFA for 4 - 7 years.

Even if they suck, it's only one or two years. With what Francis has put together, the team isn't going to compete for the playoffs but with higher end players you have a possible chance of selling at the trade deadline.

We just Ghost go for a 2nd and a 7th. So Francis could have 100% gotten that in exchange for Ghost. With the threat of an ED draft of someone like Hagg, he could have gotten even more. Perhaps a 1st and a 7th to take Ghost and leave Hagg. Instead they took a scrub with almost no value. Heck they probably could have gotten that dude as a throw in.

So the problem isn't that the team is weak right now. Of course it was going to be. Even Vegas actual ED was weak. The problem is Francis didn't maximize leverage in any way and left a boatload of value on the table.

 

[periferal]

Ofcourse they make mistakes. But it's too early to make a call right now is what I am saying. Nobody here is saying let's give Francis a pass. All people are saying is let's wait to see how things actually go this season before we make that call. Going into full panic mode over the expansion draft is not enough evidence in my mind to call for his head.

You don't give people a 2nd chance and NOT give them a chance to prove themselves.

I understand what you're saying. Now understand what I'm saying...

I never wanted Seattle (or any team) to hire Francis again. He showed me all I needed to know while with Carolina. To me each year he made things worse there was already his 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th chance. The fact that he's getting yet another one is obviously beyond my control, but the hiring of Haksol and botching of moves the last week only confirmed what anyone who paid attention to the 2014-2018 Hurricans should've expected.

it's possible it was a bad hire from the start and now he's just going to set the franchise back more and more the longer he stays on the job, and there are probably many Seattle fans who don't know any better who will sit back and give him 5+ years to implement his "plan."

 

[Gniwder]

We just Ghost go for a 2nd and a 7th. So Francis could have 100% gotten that in exchange for Ghost. With the threat of an ED draft of someone like Hagg, he could have gotten even more. Perhaps a 1st and a 7th to take Ghost and leave Hagg. Instead they took a scrub with almost no value. Heck they probably could have gotten that dude as a throw in.

So the problem isn't that the team is weak right now. Of course it was going to be. Even Vegas actual ED was weak. The problem is Francis didn't maximize leverage in any way and left a boatload of value on the table.

Philly paid a 2nd and 7th to get rid of Ghost and his cap space.

I would've taken JVR from Philly, not Ghost. He cleared waivers last season, nobody wanted him for free.

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

I understand what you're saying. Now understand what I'm saying...

I never wanted Seattle (or any team) to hire Francis again. He showed me all I needed to know while with Carolina. To me each year he made things worse there was already his 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th chance. The fact that he's getting yet another one is obviously beyond my control, but the hiring of Haksol and botching of moves the last week only confirmed what anyone who paid attention to the 2014-2018 Hurricans should've expected.

it's possible it was a bad hire from the start and now he's just going to set the franchise back more and more the longer he stays on the job, and there are probably many Seattle fans who don't know any better who will sit back and give him 5+ years to implement his "plan."

You are missing the point though. What you want or I want is irrelevant. Does not matter if we did not want Hakstol and/or Francis. The truth is that management spent time interviewing them and felt that they were good fits. That is why they gave them both second chances. And now that they are here, we don't have an option or say. The positive way to react to that would be trust management and give them a second chance as well. And that second chance should extend beyond what happened in the expansion draft or even the entry draft.

Don't mean this specifically for you but there is little to gain by complaining about Francis and Hextal on a daily basis. Or using the first move(s) they make that we disagree with as a continuation of their 'poor' pasts.

 

[The Marquis]

I can say one thing… I’m not going to pass any judgment on any executive, GM, coach or player on an expansion team until at least a couple months into the season.

 

[periferal]

You are missing the point though. What you want or I want is irrelevant. Does not matter if we did not want Hakstol and/or Francis. The truth is that management spent time interviewing them and felt that they were good fits. That is why they gave them both second chances. And now that they are here, we don't have an option or say. The positive way to react to that would be trust management and give them a second chance as well. And that second chance should extend beyond what happened in the expansion draft or even the entry draft.

Don't mean this specifically for you but there is little to gain by complaining about Francis and Hextal on a daily basis. Or using the first move(s) they make that we disagree with as a continuation of their 'poor' pasts.

Didn't I say that any move that ownership makes is beyond my control?

None of us control any more any team makes. So based on that...What is the point of all of us posting here? Personally I come to vent my frustrations when my teams make stupid moves. Makes me feel better.

So circling back...I can't stand that of all people Seattle ownership picked Ron "I suck he life out of any room or franchise" Francis to build up a team from the start. They would've been better to pick an up and coming assistant GM, but instead they traded competency for experience. And sometimes there are bad experiences.

The worst part is let's be honest...Most Seattleites aren't fully knowledgable in hockey and when the Kraken suck for a few years, Francis will preach "plan" and they'll believe it...Also because most expansion teams are supposed to be bad. He's going to get an extended honeymoon phase as a result and I'll bet in that time do the kind of damage that will take extra years to undo.

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

Didn't I say that any move that ownership makes is beyond my control?

None of us control any more any team makes. So based on that...What is the point of all of us posting here? Personally I come to vent my frustrations when my teams make stupid moves. Makes me feel better.

So circling back...I can't stand that of all people Seattle ownership picked Ron "I suck he life out of any room or franchise" Francis to build up a team from the start. They would've been better to pick an up and coming assistant GM, but instead they traded competency for experience. And sometimes there are bad experiences.

The worst part is let's be honest...Most Seattleites aren't fully knowledgable in hockey and when the Kraken suck for a few years, Francis will preach "plan" and they'll believe it...Also because most expansion teams are supposed to be bad. He's going to get an extended honeymoon phase as a result and I'll bet in that time do the kind of damage that will take extra years to undo.

Let us take a step back. What would you want Francis to do this year, to make you happy? What are you realistically expecting? Playoff spot? Stanley Cup? Somewhere in between? Focus should not necessarily be on dissecting every move he makes, but the result at the end of the year.

Venting your frustrations is fine. My suggestion is to just keep an open mind and give Francis a chance. Everyone here has heard the shortcomings of both Francis and Hakstol from Carolina fans and Philly fans. We get it.

 

[periferal]

Let us take a step back. What would you want Francis to do this year, to make you happy? What are you realistically expecting? Playoff spot? Stanley Cup? Somewhere in between? Focus should not necessarily be on dissecting every move he makes, but the result at the end of the year.

Venting your frustrations is fine. My suggestion is to just keep an open mind and give Francis a chance. Everyone here has heard the shortcomings of both Francis and Hakstol from Carolina fans and Philly fans. We get it.

No one is expecting a Vegas style inagural year. I just wanted him to set the table for the most exciting team possible that's on it's way for finding that "core group" you need to ultimately win a Cup.

First...You don't hire Hakstol. He's uninspiring at best and in over his head at worst.

Second...It's clear now that Francis overplayed his hand asking for a 1st & 3rd from other teams to take who they wanted him to. He seemed unwilling to negotiate and as a result made ZERO expansion deals which is still so shocking I don't believe that's the case. Of course he's upset and instead of aking accountability, he's blaming other teams by saying they "didn't want to make the same mistakes" as last time. While the prices wouldn't be the same there were deals to be made and Francis refused to negotiate.

In 2017 Vegas left the expansion draft with a dozen extra picks setting them up for the team they have today. The deal you saw today between Phila and Zona is a deal Francis could've had adding a 2nd round pick. Instead he took a no name AHL level player who will never be worth a 2nd.

The results will come later, but Francis has already shopped for bad groceries that will ultimately lead to a bad meal.

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

No one is expecting a Vegas style inagural year. I just wanted him to set the table for the most exciting team possible that's on it's way for finding that "core group" you need to ultimately win a Cup.

First...You don't hire Hakstol. He's uninspiring at best and in over his head at worst.

Second...It's clear now that Francis overplayed his hand asking for a 1st & 3rd from other teams to take who they wanted him to. He seemed unwilling to negotiate and as a result made ZERO expansion deals which is still so shocking I don't believe that's the case. Of course he's upset and instead of aking accountability, he's blaming other teams by saying they "didn't want to make the same mistakes" as last time. While the prices wouldn't be the same there were deals to be made and Francis refused to negotiate.

In 2017 Vegas left the expansion draft with a dozen extra picks setting them up for the team they have today. The deal you saw today between Phila and Zona is a deal Francis could've had adding a 2nd round pick. Instead he took a no name AHL level player who will never be worth a 2nd.

The results will come later, but Francis has already shopped for bad groceries that will ultimately lead to a bad meal.

Have you ever gone to 1 store, unable to find what you really need and then go to a different store? Has happened to me multiple times.

Anyway, I am going to respectfully bow out of this conversation. You have already decided that Seattle is doomed to fail because of your dislike for both Francis and Hakstol. It is your personal opinion and one that I do not share.

 

[ckg927]

So glad he didn't waste the cap on the overpriced, aging, flawed players that teams were exposing. It is the path to quick cap hell and being a perpetual playoff bubble team.

Honestly, if he changes his mind, I am pretty positive a lot of teams would still trade the guys they exposed for future considerations to Seattle if they didn't have to take any cap back.

The expansion lists of available players were not very good. The allstar names of years ago that were available are not allstars anymore, yet they come with the allstar caphit.

The UFA list this season is slim pickings, and the good players are going to cash-in big time and all of their deals are going to look really bad in the near future.

There was no way Seattle was replicating what Vegas did. It was not possible, so get that notion out of your minds, and let them build a team that while may be lean to start, will be a contender in the near future and for years to come.

And just enjoy that there is NHL hockey in Washington

EVERY LAST WORD OF THIS. I'd also add this: ANYONE on this board who was entertaining fantasies of the Kraken being Vegas 2.0 right out of the gate...welcome to the wonderful world of reality. Plus, Vegas didn't have the history of hockey that Seattle does-they only had the Thunder of the IHL for 6 seasons and the ECHL's Wranglers for a dozen years; compare that to the WHL's Seattle Thunderbirds(who've been in the market since 1977)and the Everett Silvertips(since 2003). AND, of course, the Seattle Metropolitans from way back when. If Francis isn't up to the task, we'll find out in due course. For now, patience is going to HAVE to be a virtue. (Me, being from Buffalo and having to put up with so many MORE missteps, we've run out of it.)

 

[Irie]

Actually most of the posts here are very measured, rational, and informed. If there's any "doom and gloom" it's coming from the moves Francis' is making.

Honestly, what moves are you expecting?

Did you want him to grab all the big contract/big names that are being exposed in an expansion draft?

Do you believe there is a large market for mid-level guys making 4-5 million that were exposed in the expansion draft that he could flip?

Do you think other teams would give up draft capital for the younger players with upside that were exposed and aren't quite ready for the NHL, but aren't waiver exempt?

Seriously, I would really like your take on the current environment around the league and what they should have done different.

 

[StarterHart]

Like most things, the truth lies somewhere in the middle of the extremes. The fact is, there is clearly still a significant portion of Ron's plan going into the season left to be revealed. You cannot fairly judge his performance until his entire plan has been executed, and games are being played. That being said, I don't see how anyone can look at the processes and decision making from Hakstol's hiring until now and not come away extremely concerned. It's too early to judge or come to a conclusion. It's never too early to be critical when things don't make sense.

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

Like most things, the truth lies somewhere in the middle of the extremes. The fact is, there is clearly still a significant portion of Ron's plan going into the season left to be revealed. You cannot fairly judge his performance until his entire plan has been executed, and games are being played. That being said, I don't see how anyone can look at the processes and decision making from Hakstol's hiring until now and not come away extremely concerned. It's too early to judge or come to a conclusion. It's never too early to be critical when things don't make sense.

For sure. Concerns are very valid. But like you said, it is too early to judge.

 

[Irie]

He was there 5 years...

• Only drafted one player of consequence (Aho) and busted on a majority of picks.
• Team never made the playoffs.
• Hired a coach who was later found out was using racist slurs against a Hurricanes player.

What do you think now?

#Francis

He was GM for 4 years, not 5.

"busted on a majority of picks." ..... Seriously?

This is one of the most dishonest, misleading statements I have ever read on this site. Congratulations.

Every GM and organization busts on the majority of picks.

In terms of league average, Francis drafted quite well.

He drafted one time in the top 5 in that time (Hanifin)
All 5 of the 1st round picks he made while GM in Carrolina are regular NHL players.
4 out of 5 of the picks he made in the 2nd round are regular NHL players.

9 out of 10 picks from the top two rounds. That is almost unheard of.

10 players on this years Southern Division winning Carolina team were drafted or acquired by Francis, including their starting goalie and leading scorer.

Argument context and framing are everything.

 

[theimmortal1]

Philly paid a 2nd and 7th to get rid of Ghost and his cap space.

I would've taken JVR from Philly, not Ghost. He cleared waivers last season, nobody wanted him for free.

Thats the point. You don’t take him for free. If Philly gave a 2nd and 7th they would have given Seattle a lot more to select Ghost. Heck I can almost guarantee you that you got have gotten Ghost + 2nd + 7th + plus the random dude you drafted.

 

[Ace]

Doom and gloom 1 day after expansion draft. Keep up the toxic atmosphere HFBoards.

It’s so bad Francis just selected it

 

[Gniwder]

Thats the point. You don’t take him for free. If Philly gave a 2nd and 7th they would have given Seattle a lot more to select Ghost. Heck I can almost guarantee you that you got have gotten Ghost + 2nd + 7th + plus the random dude you drafted.

Why would they have offered more? Chances are that they offered the same deal and Francis turned them down. I'm sure Fletcher made multiple phone calls and settled on the best offer.

I'd been cool with just selecting someone useful from the Flyers, even if the salary was a tad bit high. JVR was my choice because he's cheaper and has one less year than Voracek. I think that makes more sense than eating $4.5M x 2yr contract for a guy that doesn't fit into Hakstol's low event system. I'm guessing Hakstol didn't want anyone he's coached before, because they didn't select Stecher either.

 

[periferal]

Honestly, what moves are you expecting?

Did you want him to grab all the big contract/big names that are being exposed in an expansion draft?

Do you believe there is a large market for mid-level guys making 4-5 million that were exposed in the expansion draft that he could flip?

Do you think other teams would give up draft capital for the younger players with upside that were exposed and aren't quite ready for the NHL, but aren't waiver exempt?

Seriously, I would really like your take on the current environment around the league and what they should have done different.

See post #38 above.

 

[The Marquis]

I’ll say this.

As a long time Mariners fan, I’m a Kraken fan first and foremost out of my love and loyalty to the Pacific Northwest (f*ck the Sounders though, go Timbers! Some of you know this about me). At any rate, I have loved and supported the worst team in baseball history for 42 years. My entire lifetime. I have no illusions that they will ever win a pennant much less a World Series championship. With the Kraken coming… hockey is my number one sport. The ONLY sport I’ve played competitively as an adult despite being a very good baseball player through high school. My view is, I will support them. Period. My criticism will come from results on the ice only. I’m extremely excited for every game, because we have an NHL team! Go Kraken!

 

[periferal]

He was GM for 4 years, not 5.

"busted on a majority of picks." ..... Seriously?

This is one of the most dishonest, misleading statements I have ever read on this site. Congratulations.

Every GM and organization busts on the majority of picks.

In terms of league average, Francis drafted quite well.

He drafted one time in the top 5 in that time (Hanifin)
All 5 of the 1st round picks he made while GM in Carrolina are regular NHL players.
4 out of 5 of the picks he made in the 2nd round are regular NHL players.

9 out of 10 picks from the top two rounds. That is almost unheard of.

10 players on this years Southern Division winning Carolina team were drafted or acquired by Francis, including their starting goalie and leading scorer.

Argument context and framing are everything.

Yes - Most team bust on picks, but within that world some get it right more and some don't. Most baseball players make an out about 70% of the time, but some are hitting .325 and some are hitting .250 - And that's a big difference.

You want to go nuanced on Francis' picks, let's do it:


2014
Took Haydn Fleury 7th overall. Next few picks were Nylander, Ehlers, Ritchie, Fiala...All would've been better picks, but I guess he reunited with Fleury now.

2015
Took Noah Hanafin 5th overall. Good pick although again some superior players went just after (Provorov, Werenski, Meier, Rantanen). Problem was Francis goes and trades Hanafin and 25 goal scorer Lindholm for Hamilton (good player), Ferland, and Adam Fox (who he had no chance of signing and flipped to the rangers for 2 picks that became nothing). Basically Francis lost value for the Hurricanes as opposed if he just stood pat.

2016
Took Jake Bean 13th overall. Thought so much of him that he just passed on him in the expansion draft. Next pick was Charlie McAvoy.

2017
Took Martin Necas 12th overall. Solid pick. Time will tell if Suzuki or Brannstrom who went just after will turn out to be better.

2018
Didn't keep his job until this draft, but thanks to how Francis ran the team the Hurricanes were able to draft Svechnikov #2 overall.



Now that we're done dissecting Francis' draft history, what are your thoughts that the Hurricanes never made the playoffs under his watch, and the fact that the head coach he hired was using racial slurs against his players right under his nose?

What's more bottom line than a team's record under a GM and the culture he creates while there. If you want to argue anything else but that both those things were a failure while he was GM of the Hurricanes then there's nothing left to say about your perspective on him.