Ron Francis

[Fistfullofbeer]

FFS it was a couple of dozen games, not 2 weeks.

I said 2 weeks because that is exactly what you had posted.

I quit posting here because it's the same half a dozen posters knocking down anyone with a opposing opinion. It still is, I know a clique when I see one.

If that makes us a clique what does it make your friends who are a similar group with an opposing opinion.

Francis had the opportunity to put together a watchable team, and failed to do so. I just don't see any reason to watch the team right now because I expect almost a full roster turnover before they compete for the playoffs.

That's fair and your perogative. I do generally agree with Hakstol needing to be moved sooner than later because I don't feel comfortable with him as a long term coach on our team.

Some people like to cry over spilt milk, it is what it is.

This is what I fail to understand in general. What is that going to accomplish? Not just in this case but overall. You cannot change the past. What you can do is talk about what can be done to improve our current situation. You seem like a knowledgeable person so maybe use that strength to talk about trade ideas, UFA signings, etc. to see what can be done to help the team out.

I may not agree with your opinions regarding the expansion draft but I certainly understand them. All of us, at the end of the day, just want the Kraken to be successful.

 

[HoseEmDown]

Domi's salary would've been covered by insurance if he couldn't play. I would've selected him basically as a trade chip. The team still has cap space, so I don't see how that is even part of the argument. Plus if the team had Gourde, Domi, and Tarasenko then he probably wouldn't have signed Grubby....

Insurance is never 100% of a contract. It's also dumb to draft a guy who's injured just because Insurance will pay for most of his contract. Let's see what Domi goes for at the deadline to see how badly they missed out. Also is stupid to draft a guy you don't really want but could be a trade chip down the line. If they wanted a better C then they would have taken Duchene or Johansson and not Domi anyway. They clearly didn't think Domi was worth the gamble.

If the team takes Tarasenko they don't have Dunn either. And yes Tarasenko is a ppg player and better than Dunn but Dunn is younger and can be signed long term when his current deal ends. He's much more likely to be a long term player for Seattle, that's worth more than a few extra goals this year. Plus I don't think the Grubauer signing was a bad idea. Francis never addressed the goaltending in Carolina appropriately so he was showing signs of changing right there. Grubauer was also a really good goaltender the last several years. One bad season doesn't define him yet, if he plays like this for a few then yes you can call out Francis but it's not even 1 season in.

 

[Gniwder]

I said 2 weeks because that is exactly what you had posted.

Go back and read again, I said 2 dozen games. Somehow you took the 2 dozen games and converted it to 2 weeks.

If that makes us a clique what does it make your friends who are a similar group with an opposing opinion.

I have no friends here, lol.

On the Wings board where I post more often, yes there are about a half dozen people that I go back and forth with. But we don't really gang up on anyone, we just hit the like button when they respond to opposing views. There are way more people posting there, it;s not dominated by a handful of posters like this board is.

That's fair and your perogative. I do generally agree with Hakstol needing to be moved sooner than later because I don't feel comfortable with him as a long term coach on our team.

I didn't like the signing, but I gave him a chance. He disappointed, and oddly it was because he didn't coach low event hockey.

This is what I fail to understand in general. What is that going to accomplish?

Well if you want to wax philosophical about it, what's the point of watching hockey? What's the point of posting here? Why do we exist?!?!

TELL ME!!!

 

[Gniwder]

This is what I fail to understand in general. What is that going to accomplish? Not just in this case but overall. You cannot change the past.

Just to make you laugh, Holland's name still gets mentioned in EVERY thread on the Wings board, and Hossa's name comes up every now and then, lol.

Go read the Seider thread on the main board, people are still bitter about Zetterberg and Lidstrom finishing second in Calder voting.

Hockey fans have long memories. I'm still bitter about Malkin not getting a one game suspension for instigating a fight at the end of a game in the Cup Finals.

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

Go back and read again, I said 2 dozen games. Somehow you took the 2 dozen games and converted it to 2 weeks.

You were right. I misread that.

I have no friends here, lol.

Well aware of that.

Well if you want to wax philosophical about it, what's the point of watching hockey? What's the point of posting here? Why do we exist?!?!
TELL ME!!!

There is a difference in having meaningful discourse as opposed to just trying to provoke other people and get a rise out of them. What exactly are you trying to accomplish? I still don't get it. We all know by now that you don't like Francis and his choices at the expansion draft. Do you have anything other than that to add to our discussions? I am genuinely confused here.

 

[Gniwder]

There is a difference in having meaningful discourse as opposed to just trying to provoke other people and get a rise out of them. What exactly are you trying to accomplish? I still don't get it. We all know by now that you don't like Francis and his choices at the expansion draft. Do you have anything other than that to add to our discussions? I am genuinely confused here.

See my previous post, but hockey fans love discussing past events. Considering the team has basically existed for less than a year, there isn't much else to talk about. I look at the ED failures as root cause analysis. I don't remember which team you previously followed by I bet if you go back to your old board there's discussions about the old GM still.

I do like all of the draft picks, so I'll have positive posts once I watch more of them.

 

[The Marquis]

For the record, we all definitely don’t agree with one another, but we don’t bring up a lot of stuff we can’t change from the past, or judge somebody before they should be judged on the whole (nothing is whole yet). We have all dumped on Hakstol, we’ve all dumped on Francis, but we’re looking forward, not backward. You’re not the first person to come into this board and crap on the job Francis did 7 months ago and you won’t be the last, but man, it’s definitely just time to move on from the expansion draft and start judging him for the next thing he does… the trade deadline.

 

[PG Canuck]

Was not a fan of this hire at the start and we are seeing why. He really has to redeem himself this deadline to restore faith.

Hakstol…not sure I really wanna go there.

 

[Irie]

Yo mods! @Fistfullofbeer @The Marquis

Any chance we can merge the two Francis threads? or would that just be confusing?

I ask because we have two threads in parallel basically having the same discussions over and over again and it is getting difficult to keep track of which version of the same discussion took place in which thread

 

[RainyCityHockey]

Yo mods! @Fistfullofbeer @The Marquis

Any chance we can merge the two Francis threads? or would that just be confusing?

I ask because we have two threads in parallel basically having the same discussions over and over again and it is getting difficult to keep track of which version of the same discussion took place in which thread

The 2nd thread is a seperate one for the TDL and not specifically for Francis.
It just has his name to have a fun thread title.

This one is about Francis and all of his decisions.

 

[The Marquis]

Yeah, they have 2 different purposes. This one is about the job the man is doing. The other is more about team activities going forward (which he does, but it's more about the actions than the job and the person in it), it's just got his name in it. Hahaha.

 

[GrungeHockey]

People who expected VegasV2 here just need a reality check. Was impossible to happen, wasn't going to happen, never had a chance of happening. It's an expansion team and it's not dead last (yet) so consider that a win.
I see a good team attitude, I see a solid structure, I see potential.
Regarding coaches, you wait to see if the team gets better each year. If not, out they go, but evaluating him in less than a season is ludicrous.
As for a GM, you have to give them 3 years minimum. That's when you start to see if they've drafted well.

Seems like I say this every time I log on here, but patience people, patience.

 

[dylanmacarthur]

Insurance is never 100% of a contract. It's also dumb to draft a guy who's injured just because Insurance will pay for most of his contract. Let's see what Domi goes for at the deadline to see how badly they missed out. Also is stupid to draft a guy you don't really want but could be a trade chip down the line. If they wanted a better C then they would have taken Duchene or Johansson and not Domi anyway. They clearly didn't think Domi was worth the gamble.

If the team takes Tarasenko they don't have Dunn either. And yes Tarasenko is a ppg player and better than Dunn but Dunn is younger and can be signed long term when his current deal ends. He's much more likely to be a long term player for Seattle, that's worth more than a few extra goals this year. Plus I don't think the Grubauer signing was a bad idea. Francis never addressed the goaltending in Carolina appropriately so he was showing signs of changing right there. Grubauer was also a really good goaltender the last several years. One bad season doesn't define him yet, if he plays like this for a few then yes you can call out Francis but it's not even 1 season in.

If Francis's merry band of misfits and other team's refuse is still absolutely terrible when Dunn's contract is up, why would he sign with the Kraken?

Also is stupid to draft a guy you don't really want but could be a trade chip down the line.

Why?

 

[The Marquis]

If Francis's merry band of misfits and other team's refuse is still absolutely terrible when Dunn's contract is up, why would he sign with the Kraken?



Why?

Regarding Dunn. I believe because he's still an RFA at the end of his contract for 1 more year, so Seattle controls it. After that, no reason to say one way or another.

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

Regarding Dunn. I believe because he's still an RFA at the end of his contract for 1 more year, so Seattle controls it. After that, no reason to say one way or another.

Yes. Based on capfriendly that is the case. I think that is the main reason Francis offered him only a 2 year bridge.

 

[dylanmacarthur]

You're right, my bad. I thought this 2 year ran out his RFA.

 

[NiagaraKraken]

People who expected VegasV2 here just need a reality check. Was impossible to happen, wasn't going to happen, never had a chance of happening. It's an expansion team and it's not dead last (yet) so consider that a win.
I see a good team attitude, I see a solid structure, I see potential.
Regarding coaches, you wait to see if the team gets better each year. If not, out they go, but evaluating him in less than a season is ludicrous.
As for a GM, you have to give them 3 years minimum. That's when you start to see if they've drafted well.

Seems like I say this every time I log on here, but patience people, patience.

Fantastic post.

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

People who expected VegasV2 here just need a reality check. Was impossible to happen, wasn't going to happen, never had a chance of happening. It's an expansion team and it's not dead last (yet) so consider that a win.
I see a good team attitude, I see a solid structure, I see potential.
Regarding coaches, you wait to see if the team gets better each year. If not, out they go, but evaluating him in less than a season is ludicrous.
As for a GM, you have to give them 3 years minimum. That's when you start to see if they've drafted well.

Seems like I say this every time I log on here, but patience people, patience.

I think Hakstol should be bought back next year. Just on a short leash and if things are as bad as this season (bottom-5) in the first 15-20 games, you seriously consider giving him the boot. I don't expect a massive improvement next season but I think Hakstol is not getting the most out of this team. Also, a big concern, a lot of us have bought up is the lack of identity on this team. Ignoring Vegas' immediate success, they still established an identity as a hard hitting team, with a fast forecheck and great goaltending.

Getting the players to buy into a system better suited for the talent we have could make a big difference.

 

[The Marquis]

I think Hakstol should be bought back next year. Just on a short leash and if things are as bad as this season (bottom-5) in the first 15-20 games, you seriously consider giving him the boot. I don't expect a massive improvement next season but I think Hakstol is not getting the most out of this team. Also, a big concern, a lot of us have bought up is the lack of identity on this team. Ignoring Vegas' immediate success, they still established an identity as a hard hitting team, with a fast forecheck and great goaltending.

Getting the players to buy into a system better suited for the talent we have could make a big difference.

I feel the same way. There’s going to be a lot of evaluating the job he did, but with an expansion team you don’t shut the door until you see how it goes in a second season. We’re all sure as hell going to be paying attention, but for me, the shortest leash is on coaching.

 

[periferal]

People who expected VegasV2 here just need a reality check. Was impossible to happen, wasn't going to happen, never had a chance of happening. It's an expansion team and it's not dead last (yet) so consider that a win.
I see a good team attitude, I see a solid structure, I see potential.
Regarding coaches, you wait to see if the team gets better each year. If not, out they go, but evaluating him in less than a season is ludicrous.
As for a GM, you have to give them 3 years minimum. That's when you start to see if they've drafted well.

Seems like I say this every time I log on here, but patience people, patience.

And I think it's ludicrous to not factor in anyone's previous work experience when judging how they conduct themselves.

Francis sucks the energy out of a room and I believe also for the team he is the GM for. Since he left the Hurricanes that team has not only been so much more competitive, but fun to watch as well.

Francis was hired as "director of hockey operations" for Carolina in 2011. He was named GM in 2014....And then fired in 2018. That was 8 seasons with Francis' fingerprints all over the team and do you know how many times the Hurricanes made the playoffs under Francis.

ZERO.

Do you realize how hard that is to do in a league where 50% of the teams make it? The year after Francis left...Playoffs. And they've made it every year since.

Go ahead and say whatever you need to yourself to feel better that an inept GM is running things for your favorite team, but I'd bet a lot of money that things don't improve much for the Kraken in the next 3-4 years. Not sure what your tolerance is for poor management, but to me if you don't have a Cup caliber GM then you're just wasting time until you eventually fire him.

To me that's what the Kraken are doing now.

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

And I think it's ludicrous to not factor in anyone's previous work experience when judging how they conduct themselves.

Francis sucks the energy out of a room and I believe also for the team he is the GM for. Since he left the Hurricanes that team has not only been so much more competitive, but fun to watch as well.

Francis was hired as "director of hockey operations" for Carolina in 2011. He was named GM in 2014....And then fired in 2018. That was 8 seasons with Francis' fingerprints all over the team and do you know how many times the Hurricanes made the playoffs under Francis.

ZERO.

Do you realize how hard that is to do in a league where 50% of the teams make it? The year after Francis left...Playoffs. And they've made it every year since.

Go ahead and say whatever you need to yourself to feel better that an inept GM is running things for your favorite team, but I'd bet a lot of money that things don't improve much for the Kraken in the next 3-4 years. Not sure what your tolerance is for poor management, but to me if you don't have a Cup caliber GM then you're just wasting time until you eventually fire him.

To me that's what the Kraken are doing now.

What you are saying may be 100% accurate but sometimes people do better with time and in their 2nd or even 3rd chances. Most of us have a pretty good idea about what happened with Carolina but are willing to be patient and see what happens with Seattle. Also, what exactly can the fans do? Protest? Not enjoy the new team and get depressed about the hire just because of the past.

I think being vary about the future is fine but also signing this off as a failure based on his past is not a good place for the fans to be in right from the start.

 

[periferal]

What you are saying may be 100% accurate but sometimes people do better with time and in their 2nd or even 3rd chances. Most of us have a pretty good idea about what happened with Carolina but are willing to be patient and see what happens with Seattle. Also, what exactly can the fans do? Protest? Not enjoy the new team and get depressed about the hire just because of the past.

I think being vary about the future is fine but also signing this off as a failure based on his past is not a good place for the fans to be in right from the start.

You said it...What are you supposed to do?

Not much you can do, but I certainly wouldn't be giving anyone the benefit of the doubt who showed ABSOLUTELY ZERO SUCCESS in the exact same role just a few years ago.

I mean how many times has a GM gotten better in his 2nd or 3rd job? Who becomes a Steve Yzerman after being garth snow the first time around? Can you name anyone like that because I can't.

So be patient or understanding as you want, but I started this thread before the Kraken played a game and I don't think the tenor of the point here is going to change no matter how long Francis is running things.

 

[dylanmacarthur]

Ofcourse they deserve the benefit of doubt. You think the ownership team did NOT know about Francis' past when they hired him? And do you really think the 2nd chance should extend just to the expansion draft and moves (or lack-of) made during that one event?

While I understand the frustration on the lack of moves, nobody knows the big picture that Francis has (or doesnt have). We need to give him some time to actually let his actions do the talking and see what the team looks like going into the season and more importantly performs during the season.

So, once we got into the season and the team performed terribly, you moved the goalposts to "let's give him a few years."

At this point I have to ask - had anybody seen Ron Francis and Fistfullofbeer in the same place at the same time?

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

So, once we got into the season and the team performed terribly, you moved the goalposts to "let's give him a few years."

At this point I have to ask - had anybody seen Ron Francis and Fistfullofbeer in the same place at the same time?

When did I say that let's pass a sentence mid-way through the trial. Or that the expansion draft was the sole measuring stick for Francis. I have said it from the beginning that I do not expect us to make the playoffs till year 2-3 or though I did expect us to be a competitive (bubble) team in our first season.

I am NOT attached to Francis or Hakstol and while I am more warm to the idea of moving Hakstol next season, there is no way Francis should be fired this soon.

 

[gstommylee]

When did I say that let's pass a sentence mid-way through the trial. Or that the expansion draft was the sole measuring stick for Francis. I have said it from the beginning that I do not expect us to make the playoffs till year 2-3 or though I did expect us to be a competitive (bubble) team in our first season.

I am NOT attached to Francis or Hakstol and while I am more warm to the idea of moving Hakstol next season, there is no way Francis should be fired this soon.

Only those fans that are vegas 2.0 or everyone should be fired and yes the Seattle fanbase has those kind of fans. People really need to chill and let the building process actually happen before evaluating anyone. Firing people just for the sake of firing people will only delay and delay and delay things further and further. I'm sure people would be fine to have a franchise where all they do is keep firing GMs and HCs every time team struggles.