Ron Francis Or Anze Kopitar?

[Albatros]

C’mon man. Stevens played with Jagr and Lemieux while Francis played the other teams’ top lines. Anyone who watched that Pens team knows Francis was more important to it than Stevens.

The all star selections are tougher for Francis as well as he was up against Mario, Wayne, Steve Y, and Sakic.

If you want to know the quality of player Stevens really was, take a look at how he did on other teams where he didn’t play with Mario and Jagr. Away from Pitts Francis still scored over 100 whereas Steven’s career high is 43.

Stevens was a good and physical complementary winger who had the two best line mates in history while Francis was a two-way play driving star.

And the opposition focused on neutralizing Lemieux which created other lines a lot more space. Besides Stevens-Lemieux-Jágr was hardly ever a thing, just as well Francis played with Lemieux or indeed Stevens (and Jágr). Especially on PP even Stevens-Lemieux-Francis quite a lot.

 

[sabremike]

These results feel like heavy recency bias.

Francis is, pretty conservatively, one of the 20 best centers ever.

Yup. How many other players can you point to and say trading this guy was a significant contributing factor in literally killing a franchise?

 

[Golden_Jet]

Francis for me.

 

[bobholly39]

These results feel like heavy recency bias.

Francis is, pretty conservatively, one of the 20 best centers ever.

Top 20?

Back in 2014 the history forum did a ranking of top centers of all-time, and he ended up 35th. And this was in 2014, lots of centers moving up since:

HOH Top 60 Centers of All Time

This is the final list of the top centers from all of hockey history, as determined by the History of Hockey community at HFBoards: RankPlayerHeightWeightBornDiedCareerNationality 1Wayne Gretzky6'0"1851961 1978-1999Canada 2Mario Lemieux6'4"2301965 1984-2006Canada 3Jean...

forums.hfboards.com

I voted Francis too - but top 20 all-time is a big exageraiton.

 

[Machinehead]

Top 20?

Back in 2014 the history forum did a ranking of top centers of all-time, and he ended up 35th. And this was in 2014, lots of centers moving up since:

HOH Top 60 Centers of All Time

This is the final list of the top centers from all of hockey history, as determined by the History of Hockey community at HFBoards: RankPlayerHeightWeightBornDiedCareerNationality 1Wayne Gretzky6'0"1851961 1978-1999Canada 2Mario Lemieux6'4"2301965 1984-2006Canada 3Jean...

forums.hfboards.com

I voted Francis too - but top 20 all-time is a big exageraiton.

Is Kopitar one of the 35 best centers ever?

 

[bobholly39]

I dunno.

Aside from total career numbers, I kinda feel like Francis was never considered a top 10 player in the league but Kopitar was.

Hard to compare different style players in different eras in different situations.



I'm gonna go with Kopitar.

I'll always remember Francis as a complimentary player on the Penguins who rode shotgun to vastly better players than him.

When was Kopitar a top 10 player exactly? And don't say 2018 despite finishig 3rd in Hart - it was a great season, but I don't think he was a top 10 player with all the talent in the league.

Both are pretty comparable - Francis just has a lot of longevity on Kopitar, and so I pick him.

 

[bobholly39]

Is Kopitar one of the 35 best centers ever?

I think Francis is better than Kopitar. So wherever I rank Kopitar, it's below Francis. It's probably below 35 for Kopitar, and close to 35 for Francis, but I don't have an exact ranking off the top of my head.

I just think you were big-time miscalculating when you estimated that Francis is "easily a top 20 center".

 

[Machinehead]

I think Francis is better than Kopitar. So wherever I rank Kopitar, it's below Francis. It's probably below 35 for Kopitar, and close to 35 for Francis, but I don't have an exact ranking off the top of my head.

I just think you were big-time miscalculating when you estimated that Francis is "easily a top 20 center".

Although I do value longevity more than most, I'm willing to concede that. My point was just that I don't think Kopitar is quite in that air.

 

[Romang67]

Kopitar hasn't been a Selke level defensive player in like 7 years, and he broke the point per game barrier once in his career.

 

[Albatros]

Kopitar hasn't been a Selke level defensive player in like 7 years, and he broke the point per game barrier once in his career.

Kopitar has about as good Selke record the last 7 years as Francis in his entire career. Top 10 finishes overall:

Kopitar 1, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 5, 6, 7, 9, 9
Francis 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 6, 8

 

[Romang67]

Kopitar has about as good Selke record the last 7 years as Francis in his entire career. Top 10 finishes overall:

Kopitar 1, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 5, 6, 7, 9, 9
Francis 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 6, 8

I didn't say he hasn't gotten Selke votes. I said he hasn't been Selke level defensively. The voters think he's Bergeron, and he hasn't been since his prime almost a decade ago.

 

[Ace of Hades]

I will take Francis pretty easily

 

[wetcoast]

Oh wow.. I had never thought about it before but these guys are so similar.

This was my first thought as well, although at first glance I was thinking Francis is higher right?

Then I thought wait Kopitar is getting under rated quite a bit maybe.

Big guys, primarily playmakers, great defensively.. both good at faceoffs although Francis was great at them.. Kopitar has been the man in LA forever and Francis was Ronnie Franchise in Hartford and then the matchup center and occasional #1 for Pittsburgh during their prime time in the 90s..

even?

Probably the best answer as they are really close.

 

[bleedgreen]

Because he has far more games played for Hartford/Carolina than anyone else (at the time) and it's a punny play off his last name. It's not like he's Ron Stewart and they called him Ronnie Franchise...

They called him Ronnie franchise DURING his time with the Whalers, not retrospectively.

As in…..”I can’t believe we just traded Ronnie Franchise for John Cullen”.

They’d been calling him that for years in Hartford.

Second in NHL history only to Gretzky in assists. Both great players but it’s Francis.

 

[bleedgreen]

1990/91
Stevens 80 40+46=86
Francis 14 2+9=11

1991/92
Stevens 80 54+69=123
Francis 70 21+33=54

1992/93
Stevens 72 55+56=111
Francis 84 24+76=100

1993/94
Stevens 83 41+47=88
Francis 82 27+66=93

Total
Stevens 315 190+218=408 (1.30 ppg) - 1x 1st All-Star, 2x 2nd All-Star, 1x Hart 8th
Francis 250 74+184=258 (1.03 ppg) - 2x Selke 6th

Stevens was playing with Lemieux during his best seasons? Yes Francis got Jagr but it was 19 year old Jagr and Francis was playing a two way 2C which was needed much more than a scoring wing.

 

[banks]

I don't get the argument that Francis wasn't the #1 guy on his teams. Would Kopitar have been if he played with Mario or prime Jagr?

It's close, and a fun comparison. But I take Ronnie Franchise.

 

[Regal]

I don't get the argument that Francis wasn't the #1 guy on his teams. Would Kopitar have been if he played with Mario or prime Jagr?

It's close, and a fun comparison. But I take Ronnie Franchise.

While Francis shouldn’t necessarily be punished for that as Kopitar wouldn’t be the #1 guy there either, and I think Francis probably could be the #1 on a cup winner, it’s just that with Kopitar we know he can be the guy on a multiple cup winner.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

When was Kopitar a top 10 player exactly? And don't say 2018 despite finishig 3rd in Hart - it was a great season, but I don't think he was a top 10 player with all the talent in the league.

Both are pretty comparable - Francis just has a lot of longevity on Kopitar, and so I pick him.

I think Kopitar was certainly top 10 but my opinion means f*** all.

I dunno. I guess for a player seldom taken in the 1st round of all my hockey pools I did growing up, it was a surprise to see Francis compile that many points.

When he got his first couple 100 point season, he wasn't even top 10 in scoring either time. I think he was top 5 once? When he was behind Mario jagr tocchett in the scoring race.

These are horrible players to compare though. It's just personal opinion. Different eras different styles of gameplay, different reasons why they're so revered.

 

[Regal]

Kopitar hasn't been a Selke level defensive player in like 7 years, and he broke the point per game barrier once in his career.

Maybe, but he still has 6 years as an awesome two-way center before those 7 years, and he was still quite good defensively in a number of them. His prime was through one of the lowest scoring eras ever and he’s never had elite linemates, so it’s no surprise he hasn’t been point per game often. He was 15th in points per game from 09-10 to 17-18. Francis had a few top 10 scoring years once he started playing with prime Jagr in ‘95, but from his second year where he had 90 points until the year he was traded to the Pens, he was 19th in th league in points per game and was never top 10 in scoring.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

C’mon man. Stevens played with Jagr and Lemieux while Francis played the other teams’ top lines. Anyone who watched that Pens team knows Francis was more important to it than Stevens.

The all star selections are tougher for Francis as well as he was up against Mario, Wayne, Steve Y, and Sakic.

If you want to know the quality of player Stevens really was, take a look at how he did on other teams where he didn’t play with Mario and Jagr. Away from Pitts Francis still scored over 100 whereas Steven’s career high is 43.

Stevens was a good and physical complementary winger who had the two best line mates in history while Francis was a two-way play driving star.

Francis played with them on the PP though. Special teams scoring accounted for nearly half of point totals while playing with those guys.

From 91-92 to 93-94, he was 5th on the Pens in ES scoring, significantly behind 4th placed Mullen.

Francis 236gp 47 ES goals 126 ES points
Mullen 233gp 79 ES goals 163 ES points

In each of his best scoring seasons in Pittsburgh, he finished with 40+ PP assists scoring. He was an excellent player, but I could pile up assists playing on a PP with 66 and 68.

He's a bit like RNH in Edmonton, though obviously a better player. But he's not in Kopitar's league.

 

[wetcoast]

Stevens was playing with Lemieux during his best seasons? Yes Francis got Jagr but it was 19 year old Jagr and Francis was playing a two way 2C which was needed much more than a scoring wing.

Sure but go back and look at Francis his first couple of seasons in Pittsburg as his offense didn't take off until Jagrs did at age 20 in the 92-93 season.

 

[BraveCanadian]

C’mon man. Stevens played with Jagr and Lemieux while Francis played the other teams’ top lines. Anyone who watched that Pens team knows Francis was more important to it than Stevens.

The all star selections are tougher for Francis as well as he was up against Mario, Wayne, Steve Y, and Sakic.

If you want to know the quality of player Stevens really was, take a look at how he did on other teams where he didn’t play with Mario and Jagr. Away from Pitts Francis still scored over 100 whereas Steven’s career high is 43.

Stevens was a good and physical complementary winger who had the two best line mates in history while Francis was a two-way play driving star.

Ya Stevens was terrible defensively and Recchi was very so so.. anyone who saw those teams knows Francis was taking hard minutes (so was Trottier) against other teams.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Is Kopitar one of the 35 best centers ever?

By this point he probably is?

Francis is pretty underrated on the HoH because a lot of people feel he wasn’t “the man” during his biggest accomplishments.. but very few players would be with Lemieux and Jagr around.

 

[bleedgreen]

Sure but go back and look at Francis his first couple of seasons in Pittsburg as his offense didn't take off until Jagrs did at age 20 in the 92-93 season.

So you’re saying a playmaking pass first two way forward improved his stats when his goal scoring winger came of age?

 

[KevinRedkey]

Francis is the most boring player in all of sports to be top-5 in all-time scoring.

It's still him though.