Salary Cap: RFA Marner - Silence until solution to the matter one way or the other

[desperateblue]

They helped each other.

Most would pick Marner.

I agree they def worked well together but I think I disagree with you 100%
Most gms and fans would take Tavares

 

[kb]

To be honest though, Jefflers point about Tavares production and Marner not having an impact on it is a joke. Tavares blew up his 5v5 numbers. The main reason he didn't blow through career high's is that he wasn't not the primary playmaker on the PP like he was his entire time in NYI, and he saw his PP time reduced. Plus, it is foolish to think a player like Marner wouldn't progress between the ages of 20 and 21 given his pedigree and status.

The PK thing is foolish, but we are seeing two people argue who are both ignoring key facts to frame their debate.

JTs ES pts/60 were significantly better without Marner. Marner's ES pts/60 was significantly greater with Tavares than without.

 

[kb]

They helped each other.

Most would pick Marner.

Most would be wrong

 

[Dough72]

Basketball salaries for star players nearly doubled after their newest media contract. I don't think turning down 7x11 is all that surprising if he thinks the next wave of contracts will make the Matthews and Tavares contracts look like chump change.

 

[ACC1224]

JTs ES pts/60 were significantly better without Marner. Marner's ES pts/60 was significantly greater with Tavares than without.

How many minutes did they play apart from each other vs together?

 

[ACC1224]

I agree they def worked well together but I think I disagree with you 100%
Most gms and fans would take Tavares

Yeah, I could see that, Tavares is a great player.
I'm thinking the age difference would tip the scale.

 

[Walshy7]

How does the currency nullify it? A Canadian dollar isn't equal to an American dollar in purchasing power. Items aren't cheaper in Canada because of the exchange rate. If you are arguing because he gets more Canadian money after-tax than he would American in the states after conversion, I don't know what to say. You might have a point if the dollars were equal in purchasing power but they aren't.

It requires time and going to events. They aren't hard, but they absolutely aren't comparable to the tax breaks.

If Marner lives and works in canada and paid in US $$of course its an advantage to be taken into account. The guy with the "tax free" (it isn't tax free anyway, state tax free) also the difference in tax break between $10M in Ontario to florida is $1.6m Marner makes more than that in endorsements that only a leaf would get (maybe another candian team)

 

[desperateblue]

Yeah, I could see that, Tavares is a great player.
I'm thinking the age difference would tip the scale.

And I think the experience and type of player makes the age gap negligible tbh
Marner is a bit reckless sometimes and is more high risk high reward.
The difference tho is one dragged a terrible islander team around your almost a decade and Marner turned down what jt got as a ufa.

 

[kb]

How many minutes did they play apart from each other vs together?

Not sure. I think it was close to 200 minutes without, which actually surprised me. It was posted a few days back.

 

[93LEAFS]

If Marner lives and works in canada and paid in US $$of course its an advantage to be taken into account. The guy with the "tax free" (it isn't tax free anyway, state tax free) also the difference in tax break between $10M in Ontario to florida is $1.6m Marner makes more than that in endorsements that only a leaf would get (maybe another candian team)

He also pays taxes on those endorsements at a high-level. And, again, my point was, we can't treat the endorsements like tax-breaks. They require much more effort from the players. They have to film and go to sponsor events. Its not much, but its more than just living somewhere. I don't get what your point is though. Real estate is much more expensive in Toronto than Florida, so even if he is paying in CAD with an exchange advantage the housing still costs more. CAD is far from equal to the USD in actual purchasing power. So, places like Florida where you have no state tax, the real estate is cheaper, send your kids likely to private school and you are on a significant benefit package (therefore don't have to worry about privatized health care). Canada has a hell of a lot of advantages, but, for high-earning people with mobility, Florida obviously provides a better return if you don't factor in emotional attachment to places. Personally, I'd never want to live in Florida for a variety of reasons. But, you can't treat the endorsements as tax breaks and you sure as hell, can't treat the CAD as equal in purchasing power to the USD.

 

[93LEAFS]

JTs ES pts/60 were significantly better without Marner. Marner's ES pts/60 was significantly greater with Tavares than without.

You really want to use a one season sample, when they were pretty much always on the same line. JT's 5v5 P/60 the previous 3 years was 2.03, his one this year was 2.87. Marner over his first two years was 2.1 points per 60. So, Marner raised JT's as much as JT raised his. It is also logical to expect a player who was 19 and 20 in the first 2 seasons to make a larger jump than a guy going from 27 to 28. They clearly both significantly benefitted from the situation. That is probably much better example than a scattered example over 150 minutes, some of which come off of Marner ending PK shifts where he is likely trapped in his zone. To frame the situation as Marner only bumped JT up 4 points lacks the nuance of anyone who is trying to sell themselves as an analyst. Anyone who watched both of them over the years, and paid attention to them statistically, would come to the conclusion that the only reason JT didn't crush his career highs this year is that he got less PP time, and his role on the PP was shifted (the play runs primarily through Marner on our PP, that was not the case in the NYI PP set-ups where it ran through JT).

 

[93LEAFS]

How many minutes did they play apart from each other vs together?

It's 150, but you have to think about how those minutes were also generally formulated, which is off situations they weren't originally on the ice-togeather such as Marner still being on the ice after a PK, or just generally broken PP minutes. If you actually look at JT's numbers the previous 3 years, they went up slightly more (we are talking like .05 more), than Marner's did from his first 2 years on a P/60 basis.

 

[desperateblue]

He also pays taxes on those endorsements at a high-level. And, again, my point was, we can't treat the endorsements like tax-breaks. They require much more effort from the players. They have to film and go to sponsor events. Its not much, but its more than just living somewhere. I don't get what your point is though. Real estate is much more expensive in Toronto than Florida, so even if he is paying in CAD with an exchange advantage the housing still costs more. CAD is far from equal to the USD in actual purchasing power. So, places like Florida where you have no state tax, the real estate is cheaper, send your kids likely to private school and you are on a significant benefit package (therefore don't have to worry about privatized health care). Canada has a hell of a lot of advantages, but, for high-earning people with mobility, Florida obviously provides a better return if you don't factor in emotional attachment to places. Personally, I'd never want to live in Florida for a variety of reasons. But, you can't treat the endorsements as tax breaks and you sure as hell, can't treat the CAD as equal in purchasing power to the USD.

And the 10 million dollar signing bonuses these kids are getting are for what their lunch money?
Nope that’s covered too.
Stop it with the exchange and tax talk
The league shut down over parity and fairness everything works out.
Florida players keep no more cash then anywhere else

 

[13pacheco31]

He also pays taxes on those endorsements at a high-level. And, again, my point was, we can't treat the endorsements like tax-breaks. They require much more effort from the players. They have to film and go to sponsor events. Its not much, but its more than just living somewhere. I don't get what your point is though. Real estate is much more expensive in Toronto than Florida, so even if he is paying in CAD with an exchange advantage the housing still costs more. CAD is far from equal to the USD in actual purchasing power. So, places like Florida where you have no state tax, the real estate is cheaper, send your kids likely to private school and you are on a significant benefit package (therefore don't have to worry about privatized health care). Canada has a hell of a lot of advantages, but, for high-earning people with mobility, Florida obviously provides a better return if you don't factor in emotional attachment to places. Personally, I'd never want to live in Florida for a variety of reasons. But, you can't treat the endorsements as tax breaks and you sure as hell, can't treat the CAD as equal in purchasing power to the USD.

But he lives in Canada, which essentially makes USD irrelevant. I think that's the whole point made about how he makes more here when you consider the exchange rate

 

[93LEAFS]

But he lives in Canada, which essentially makes USD irrelevant. I think that's the whole point made about how he makes more here when you consider the exchange rate

Except he doesn't make more. Because that is based on the assumption the Canadian dollar and American dollar have the same purchasing power. The cost of living in Toronto is higher than places like Tampa. He doesn't net more here. Yes, he has more Canadian dollars after-tax than he would American, but that is such a simplistic analysis of currency and living expenses, I don't even know where to begin.

 

[93LEAFS]

And the 10 million dollar signing bonuses these kids are getting are for what their lunch money?
Nope that’s covered too.
Stop it with the exchange and tax talk
The league shut down over parity and fairness everything works out.
Florida players keep no more cash then anywhere else

They absolutely do. I'm not saying the league is going to or even can do anything about it. But, if you play in Florida, you will keep more money and to live a high-end lifestyle is also significantly cheaper. Toronto is one of the most expensive cities in NA to live in.

 

[desperateblue]

They absolutely do. I'm not saying the league is going to or even can do anything about it. But, if you play in Florida, you will keep more money and to live a high-end lifestyle is also significantly cheaper. Toronto is one of the most expensive cities in NA to live in.

The exchange rate almost negates the tax implications that I assure you millionaires don’t worry about and the signing bonus paid By the leafs is outrageous compared to other teams so I think the players get more money in Toronto before endorsements.
If you include those that wouldn’t be as available anywhere else it’s not even close.

Some players would rather be able to walk to the beach everyday and not be recognized but for ego maniacs that are motivated by money they’d rather ride the fame train

 

[93LEAFS]

The exchange rate almost negates the tax implications that I assure you millionaires don’t worry about and the signing bonus paid By the leafs is outrageous compared to other teams so I think the players get more money in Toronto before endorsements.
If you include those that wouldn’t be as available anywhere else it’s not even close.

Some players would rather be able to walk to the beach everyday and not be recognized but for ego maniacs that are motivated by money they’d rather ride the fame train

Players don't get more net pay here compared to Florida, Texas and Nevada. I don't even know why you would think the exchange rate changes things. It seems you don't understand purchasing power. Its not like one dollar Canadian buys the same thing here as one dollar American does in the United States. This is even before getting into the price of real estate. Look, you can think Toronto is a better place to live, and I agree, but to argue that one, they get more net-pay, that the exchange rate covers the tax difference, and don't look at cost of living metrics, I don't know where to begin.

Cost of Living Comparison Between Toronto, Canada And Tampa, FL, United States

 

[jrgtml67]

Just when I thought we wouldn't hear anything unless a deal was really close..Chris Johnston has to tweet "progress." I guess the silver lining is Dreger said the same thing before he put a negative spin on things at the end of his tweet

 

[desperateblue]

Players don't get more net pay here compared to Florida, Texas and Nevada. I don't even know why you would think the exchange rate changes things. It seems you don't understand purchasing power. Its not like one dollar Canadian buys the same thing here as one dollar American does in the United States. This is even before getting into the price of real estate. Look, you can think Toronto is a better place to live, and I agree, but to argue that one, they get more net-pay, that the exchange rate covers the tax difference, and don't look at cost of living metrics, I don't know where to begin.

Cost of Living Comparison Between Toronto, Canada And Tampa, FL, United States

Ok maybe you haven’t considered this!
Marner is a Canadian right?
He files his taxes in Canada
He lives in Canada
If he plays for Tampa for example
He now pays federal USA tax and oh ya still has to pay Canadian tax because he’s still a Canadian.
One tax or two which is more?
And just as a cherry on top they are paid American and even get an American per diem

So what am I missing.....
Oranges are cheaper in Florida?
Home insurance is 1000x more

 

[ORRFForever]

count yourself lucky you haven't seen his posts they are as bad as that tweet. For the record we are talking about the guy Jeff is replying too, I don't want to speak his name. The Voldermort of Leafs HF, same name as the twitter name

Fair enough. Thank you.

 

[93LEAFS]

Ok maybe you haven’t considered this!
Marner is a Canadian right?
He files his taxes in Canada
He lives in Canada
If he plays for Tampa for example
He now pays federal USA tax and oh ya still has to pay Canadian tax because he’s still a Canadian.
One tax or two which is more?
And just as a cherry on top they are paid American and even get an American per diem

So what am I missing.....
Oranges are cheaper in Florida?
Home insurance is 1000x more

No he doesn’t. Have you heard of tax treaties?

 

[Smif]

bwwwhahahaha recognize this dude:

That's BS. Tavares went up 4 points but 10 goals. 20 goals over his career average. He also went from a -12 to a +19. 800k players don't typically kill penalties, they're usually guys in the 2.5M-4M range.

 

[desperateblue]

No he doesn’t. Have you heard of tax treaties?

Ok I’m done with this subject
I’m not an accountant and really don’t care.
Pretty sure that the Ottawa and Calgaryish teams would be screaming murder if player in no tax states made more but the truth is I really couldn’t care less.
If you can get more in Florida or somewhere else then fine you win go get it.

 

[13pacheco31]

Except he doesn't make more. Because that is based on the assumption the Canadian dollar and American dollar have the same purchasing power. The cost of living in Toronto is higher than places like Tampa. He doesn't net more here. Yes, he has more Canadian dollars after-tax than he would American, but that is such a simplistic analysis of currency and living expenses, I don't even know where to begin.

When you're talking about 10s of millions of dollars, the difference in cost of living is negligible