Revisiting the Disastrous Kotkaniemi Offer Sheet By Carolina

[OurlordAndSaviorKuch]

I mean Carolina was more being petty towards the Habs and it royally backfired.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

Thise picks could have been star players as well . In the end, Canes lost out big. A KK buyout will be the cherry on top! lol

The likelihood of those picks being that is very low. Teams wouldn’t trade picks for deadline rentals if they really believed their pick would turn into a star. Nice logical fallacy to use the low percentage best case scenario as a way to win an argument in your head.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

It's great to be competitive...in the regular season...but playoffs is another matter. Carolina is blowing their window of opportunity. And YES, it did prevent them from getting a quality goalie, there's no defending the teenage angst type move by Carolina. In a capped world, it's a huge blunder. You keep repeating that it did not affect their chances to get a goalie, but having that extra six million and combining it with adding a good young forward a la Necas and a pick, there's your goalie. We will never know who because we're not GMs, but I think there could have been possibilities with Saros, Sorokin, Ullmark, Thompson, Luukonnen just to name a few. We pretty well all knew that Andersen was on his last legs.

This is revisionist history. The fact is kk was well down the options list. We had already missed out on a few UFAs and trades. This move was 6 weeks into the offseason. Its not like the team was like screw signing guys, we are going to wait until week 6 to decide to offer sheet kk as a publicity stunt. Nope they went down the list, struck out, and tried to trade for kk. Canes weren’t moving Jarvis for kk. We had the cap space and decided to force the move then.

Canes weren’t making a big goalie trade.

It wasn’t a big blunder because the Canes always managed the cap well. Signing kk didn’t prevent us from getting anyone else via trade or FA.

 

[jfhabs]

You guys are too caught up in the narratives and soap opera here imo. The twitter account doesn't run their Franchise. Reality is Kotkaniemi is the prototypical "Brind'Amour" player and they were gambling that with his age and pedigree that he was going to make a big step forward in what would be RFA years, and with Montreal not being in a good cap spot, they could get him on a really good rate on a long-term extension. Obviously this did not work out. The offer sheet itself though? Meh, only 1 year. Yes a bit of trolling and pettiness with the $20 and some things said, but that stuff didn't matter. The 1st and 3rd they gave up are kind of whatever. The 8-year extension given that Kotkaniemi has not made a step forward is ultimately the real issue here.

You're kind of putting your head in the sand a little here. There are better options for offer sheet every summer , but GMs have a gentlemen's agreement. Bergevin broke it and also made comments that rub Canes ownership the wrong way, basically saying he didn't have the liquidity to pay the bonus. It was a revenge offer sheet and they double down on it, most likely influence by ego.

For now it is what it is and it's not the end of the world, but let's not ignore why and how stupid all of this is in terms of management.

 

[bleedgreen]

You're kind of putting your head in the sand a little here. There are better options for offer sheet every summer , but GMs have a gentlemen's agreement. Bergevin broke it and also made comments that rub Canes ownership the wrong way, basically saying he didn't have the liquidity to pay the bonus. It was a revenge offer sheet and they double down on it, most likely influence by ego.

For now it is what it is and it's not the end of the world, but let's not ignore why and how stupid all of this is in terms of management.

If it was revenge why negotiate a trade? “Hey, we’re getting revenge on you….wanna trade first?”

 

[Blueline Bomber]

If it was revenge why negotiate a trade? “Hey, we’re getting revenge on you….wanna trade first?”

In before the guy that accused others of putting their head in the sand denies that the trade attempt actually took place.

 

[chaz4hockey]

It's great to be competitive...in the regular season...but playoffs is another matter. Carolina is blowing their window of opportunity. And YES, it did prevent them from getting a quality goalie, there's no defending the teenage angst type move by Carolina. In a capped world, it's a huge blunder. You keep repeating that it did not affect their chances to get a goalie, but having that extra six million and combining it with adding a good young forward a la Necas and a pick, there's your goalie. We will never know who because we're not GMs, but I think there could have been possibilities with Saros, Sorokin, Ullmark, Thompson, Luukonnen just to name a few. We pretty well all knew that Andersen was on his last legs.

Re: Window--I don't get the Canes have missed their time mantra.

Aho, Jarvis, Svetch, Necas, Drury, yes KK are all young/in their prime with great young assets on the cusp of joining.

Potential high level players in Nikishin, Morrow on D; Unger-Sorum (playing with NHLers at the World Championship right now), Nadeau and others on O along with a bunch of young players currently in Europe that will soon come over and play for Chicago.

Most fans believe Canes will be on a long/sustained run similar to Boston's.

 

[Garbageyuk]

The likelihood of those picks being that is very low. Teams wouldn’t trade picks for deadline rentals if they really believed their pick would turn into a star. Nice logical fallacy to use the low percentage best case scenario as a way to win an argument in your head.

He said “could have been”. It’s not a logical fallacy.

 

[Hasbro]

This picture deserved the Pulitzer:

Right up there with Dustbowl Mom and Nat Geo Afghan Girl.

 

[BLNY]

Re: Window--I don't get the Canes have missed their time mantra.

Aho, Jarvis, Svetch, Necas, Drury, yes KK are all young/in their prime with great young assets on the cusp of joining.

Potential high level players in Nikishin, Morrow on D; Unger-Sorum (playing with NHLers at the World Championship right now), Nadeau and others on O along with a bunch of young players currently in Europe that will soon come over and play for Chicago.

Most fans believe Canes will be on a long/sustained run similar to Boston's.

I don't think they're out of their window either, but they do face some issues.

1. To keep KK or to not. The relief would come in handy.
2. Necas and Jarvis are among their RFAs. Both will require significant raises.
3. Secondary scoring in the playoffs has been an issue for them. Finding a way to keep Guentzel would go a long way to fixing that.
4. Their core D is long in the tooth. Skjei is also a UFA. Orlov, Slavin, and Burns all UFA in 2025.
5. Goaltending in the playoffs is an issue. Andersen's play drops off. Is Kochetkov ready to be the defacto #1?

 

[Frank Drebin]

kk deserves to be infamous

 

[Phil McKraken]

Me when it happened:

Funny in hindsight that she was hoping for Zadina. It was the right reaction for the wrong reason.

 

[chaz4hockey]

I don't think they're out of their window either, but they do face some issues.

1. To keep KK or to not. The relief would come in handy.
2. Necas and Jarvis are among their RFAs. Both will require significant raises.
3. Secondary scoring in the playoffs has been an issue for them. Finding a way to keep Guentzel would go a long way to fixing that.
4. Their core D is long in the tooth. Skjei is also a UFA. Orlov, Slavin, and Burns all UFA in 2025.
5. Goaltending in the playoffs is an issue. Andersen's play drops off. Is Kochetkov ready to be the defacto #1?

Nikishin and Morrow will be core players by '25 and Slavin will be re-signed. Balance will come from their other European players (they have several that project as NHL players) or available pickups.

Canes Management has shown dexterity in getting players to replace previous D core and until proven otherwise I suspect they will do the same here. Both Nikishin and Morrow are big men and Nikishin has a mean edge (and a rocket shot that will benefit the PP) that will benefit the Canes nicely going forward.

Pyotr is probable #1 going forward alongside Freddie next year and they will probably a pick up someone to backup after that. Projecting, they are really high on the 19 year old 6'4" Ru goalie (Ruslan Khazheyev) that had the best goalie stats of his draft class.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

He said “could have been”. It’s not a logical fallacy.

It is tho

 

[jfhabs]

If it was revenge why negotiate a trade? “Hey, we’re getting revenge on you….wanna trade first?”

Well, they probably gave a shit offer. The offersheet return wasn't much and I assume the trade offer was lower in value.

As if every trade offer being rejected for an RFA became an offer sheet ...

Another possibility is the GM not totally agreeing with his owner. Knowing this will give him a bad rep with the other GMs.

Why the bonus, the comments and the social media campaign if it wasn't a revenge?

 

[mr figgles]

One thing is for certain.

There are no winners in this story.

KK got more money than 99.99% of people on earth will ever earn in a lifetime. I call that a win.

 

[HabsCode]

What's with the obsession with this no factor player? Who cares about Kotkaniemi? Just let this topic run its course already no one gives a f about this dude

 

[bleedgreen]

Well, they probably gave a shit offer. The offersheet return wasn't much and I assume the trade offer was lower in value...

Another possibility is the GM not totally agreeing with his owner. Knowing this will give him a bad rep with the other GMs.

Why the bonus, the comments and the social media campaign if it wasn't a revenge?

Waddell has already said it. The twitter “group” wanted to have fun with it so he let them. You weren’t supposed to take it so seriously, but obviously they didn’t know who they were dealing with….

Yes obviously the Canes tried to underbid the cost of the offer sheet, maybe with prospects instead of the first rounder. The offer sheet was the option both sides knew was in the table, and the cost of that was clearly known. MB chose the offer sheet and the picks.

It’s just the arrogance of the fan base that gets me. That anyone cares so much to get you back. The concept is straight out of the 70’s that an owner would overpower his management team and force them to sign the guy to an offer sheet. No one would do that. No team would do that.

Texas billionaire who shouldn’t be in hockey? For a southern team? Of course that’s what happened!!

 

[jfhabs]

Waddell has already said it. The twitter “group” wanted to have fun with it so he let them. You weren’t supposed to take it so seriously, but obviously they didn’t know who they were dealing with….

Yes obviously the Canes tried to underbid the cost of the offer sheet, maybe with prospects instead of the first rounder. The offer sheet was the option both sides knew was in the table, and the cost of that was clearly known. MB chose the offer sheet and the picks.

It’s just the arrogance of the fan base that gets me. That anyone cares so much to get you back. The concept is straight out of the 70’s that an owner would overpower his management team and force them to sign the guy to an offer sheet. No one would do that. No team would do that.

Texas billionaire who shouldn’t be in hockey? For a southern team? Of course that’s what happened!!

It happens all the time...
Just look at the Rangers owner a few years ago with the Tom Wilson debacle.
I see it with businesses all the time too.
If you think billionaire don't have massive ego

 

[bleedgreen]

It happens all the time...
Just look at the Rangers owner a few years ago with the Tom Wilson debacle.
I see it with businesses all the time too.
If you think billionaire don't have massive ego

He has a ridiculous ego. That doesn’t mean Waddell would blindly do his bidding. The Wilson debacle didn’t lead to a tens of millions dollar contract. That’s not exactly apples to apples my friend.

 

[jfhabs]

He has a ridiculous ego. That doesn’t mean Waddell would blindly do his bidding. The Wilson debacle didn’t lead to a tens of millions dollar contract. That’s not exactly apples to apples my friend.

I'm not sure this means Wandell is a bad GM or anything. I never said that. But the ultimate decision maker in this case is the owner.

In New York the owner fired his management group over the Wilson incident... You said owners and billionaires were not directing their businesses on ego. Some are some aren't, you're statement is wrong. In Montreal Molson was a bad Owner/president until he realized that and named Gorton as president. Hands on owners are typically the worst and influencing higher management. This whole offer sheet is very most likely another proof of that.

Offer sheets are far from being the way to do business in the NHL.

The way this was done, it's foolish to think it's not possible it was a little bit influenced by revenge/ego.

 

[jfhabs]

Also ignoring that a player who engages in that to help spite his own team is likely not one with high character

That's in part true, sometimes management can really be low balling and RFA tho. In that case, I don't think it means the player has anything wrong with character.

 

[Beukeboom Fan]

Yeah he’s dogshit. We told Canes fans but they refused to see it. Good. Dundon wanted to toy with the Habs and even went as far as doubling down, looks good on the moron.

Says the guy whose team took that return for KK and turned it into Christian Dvorak.
At the end of the day - there's plenty of egg on people's faces to go around. MON for essentially wasting a 3rd OA draft pick, and CAR for likely having a $1M of dead cap per year until 2036.

2018 was a really tough draft year. Holy crap there were a lot of guys who have underperformed - Kotkaniemi, Zadina, Boquist, Kravtsov, Wahlstrom is essentially half the top 11 picks.

 

[le_sean]

Says the guy whose team took that return for KK and turned it into Christian Dvorak.
At the end of the day - there's plenty of egg on people's faces to go around. MON for essentially wasting a 3rd OA draft pick, and CAR for likely having a $1M of dead cap per year until 2036.

2018 was a really tough draft year. Holy crap there were a lot of guys who have underperformed - Kotkaniemi, Zadina, Boquist, Kravtsov, Wahlstrom is essentially half the top 11 picks.

At least Dvorak’s contract expires. At this rate I’d rather have him.

 

[AvroArrow]

This picture deserved the Pulitzer:

View attachment 873907

Right up there with Dustbowl Mom and Nat Geo Afghan Girl.

What's worse, passing on Brady Tkachuk for Kotkaniemi ? Or offersheeting Kotkaniemi because you're petty ?