Retroactive NHL Award Winners (MOD: and actual PCHA, WCHL/WHL & WHA All-Star Teams)

[Killion]

1917 all-stars selected by the same writers that voted for the MVP above.

The Calgary Daily Herald, Feb 6, 1917

Some interesting names on that list. Great find.

 

[Sanf]

PCHA referees Mickey Ion and George Irvine selected their All-Stars after 1917-1918

The Toronto World - Mar 9, 1918
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=zbw6AAAAIBAJ&sjid=NSoMAAAAIBAJ&pg=1566%2C11811420

Other random old All-Stars selections.

Ottawa Free Press selected ECHA All-Star team. There were still games left to play on that season. Published in Daily Telegraph and only the team is listed.
The Daily Telegraph - Feb 21, 1908
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1905&dat=19080221&id=05EfAAAAIBAJ&sjid=5dMEAAAAIBAJ&pg=2278,5600954

Ottawa Citizen writer speculates with the idea of East vs. West All-Star game in 1907.
Ottawa Citizen - Mar 22, 1907
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2194&dat=19070322&id=ukIuAAAAIBAJ&sjid=yNgFAAAAIBAJ&pg=3537,1044007

Montreal Daily Mail readers could sent their All-Star selection and results were compiled here. Jack Darragh did better than Ovechkin.
The Montreal Daily Mail - Mar 4, 1914
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=rKkjAAAAIBAJ&sjid=JEEDAAAAIBAJ&pg=3215%2C193676

Don´t bother to made new post so editing this to here. Ottawa Free Press made some sort of NHA All-Star selection at same year. Published in Toronto Sunday World

The Toronto Sunday World - Mar 4, 1914
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=J3cDAAAAIBAJ&sjid=6ygDAAAAIBAJ&pg=4339%2C3388629

 

[Leaf Lander]

Anyone do the retroactive rocket Richard trophy winners

 

[BM67]

Anyone do the retroactive rocket Richard trophy winners

http://www.hockey-reference.com/leaders/goals_yearly.html

 

[Sanf]

I found another one for the 1918 season. Official PCHA All-Star team announced by Frank Patrick. (Lethbridge Herald May 11, 1918)

Team was,
Goalie: Tie between all three
Defense: Cook and Johnson
Rover: MacKay (Other teams changed rovers several times during season)
Center: Taylor (Without doubt best center in world at the moment)
Right Wing: Tobin
Left Wing: Foyston (Wingers selected over Wilson and Moynes so HM for them)
Sub: Oatman (Played all positions on the line)

So referees and this selection was unanimous in Foyston,Tobin,MacKay,Taylor and Johnson. So who selected Rowe and Morris to the All-Star team which is mentioned in their Legends of hockey pages? Morris is only sub in Ion´s list and Rowe sub in Irvine´s list.

edit. Regina Morning Leader? So then those Ions selections from the other years are "wrong" too?

 

[overpass]

PCHA referees Mickey Ion and George Irvine selected their All-Stars after 1917-1918

The Toronto World - Mar 9, 1918
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=zbw6AAAAIBAJ&sjid=NSoMAAAAIBAJ&pg=1566%2C11811420

Other random old All-Stars selections.

Ottawa Free Press selected ECHA All-Star team. There were still games left to play on that season. Published in Daily Telegraph and only the team is listed.
The Daily Telegraph - Feb 21, 1908
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1905&dat=19080221&id=05EfAAAAIBAJ&sjid=5dMEAAAAIBAJ&pg=2278,5600954

Ottawa Citizen writer speculates with the idea of East vs. West All-Star game in 1907.
Ottawa Citizen - Mar 22, 1907
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2194&dat=19070322&id=ukIuAAAAIBAJ&sjid=yNgFAAAAIBAJ&pg=3537,1044007

Montreal Daily Mail readers could sent their All-Star selection and results were compiled here. Jack Darragh did better than Ovechkin.
The Montreal Daily Mail - Mar 4, 1914
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=rKkjAAAAIBAJ&sjid=JEEDAAAAIBAJ&pg=3215%2C193676

Some great links here, thanks for researching and posting!

The Daily Mail's team in 1914 (32 voters):

Goal: Georges Vezina (21 votes)
Point: Harry Cameron (12 votes at point, 5 at cover point)
Cover point: Sprague Cleghorn (10 votes at cover point, 6 votes at point)
Centre: Newsy Lalonde (11 votes at C, 2 votes at RW, 1 vote at LW)
Left wing: Jack Darragh (12 votes at LW, 10 votes at RW, 1 vote at C)
Right wing: Jack Walker (6 votes at RW, 10 votes at LW, 1 vote at C)

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

And just in case those links break:

1907 hypothetical East vs West All-Star game (these appear to just be the selections of one writer):

East

Goal: LeSueur, Ottawa
Point: Pulford, Ottawa
Coverpoint: Stuart, Wanderer
Rover: Patrick, Wanderer
Center: Bowie, Victoria
Right wing: Smith, Ottawa
Left wing: B Russell, Victoria

West
Goal: Geroux, Kenora
Point: Ross, Brandon
Coverpoint: Griffis, Kenora
Rover: Whitcroft, Kenora
Center: Hall, Brandon
Right Wing: Phillips, Kenora
Left Wing: Dey, Portage

1908 ECHA All-Star Team (selected by Ottawa Free Press with a few games left in the season):

Goal: Moran (Quebec)
Point: Taylor (Ottawa)
Coverpoint: Joe Power (Quebec)
Rover: Bowie (Victoria)
Center: Chubby Power (Quebec)
Right Wing: Smith (Ottawa)
Left Wing: Phillips (Ottawa)

 

[Iain Fyffe]

1908 ECHA All-Star Team (selected by Ottawa Free Press with a few games left in the season):

Goal: Moran (Quebec)
Point: Taylor (Ottawa)
Coverpoint: Joe Power (Quebec)
Rover: Bowie (Victoria)
Center: Chubby Power (Quebec)
Right Wing: Smith (Ottawa)
Left Wing: Phillips (Ottawa)

Interesting that they chose a rover (Chubby Power) at centre, ahead of actual centres like Herb Jordan, Marty Walsh and Jack Marshall. Can't really fathom why they'd go with Power over Jordan.

 

[Sanf]

Fred Ions selection 1920-1921 from Winnipeg Free Press March 07, 1921

Goal: Lehman Vancouver
Defence: Cook Vancouver, Johnson Victoria
Rover: Walker Seattle
Center: Frederickson Victoria
Right Wing: Adams Vancouver
Left Wing: Foyston Seattle

Only a small article where team was listed. This article was lead.
The Toronto World - Mar 12, 1921
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=F8oHAAAAIBAJ&sjid=kDQDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6479%2C772999

edit much later. This selection doesn´t even completely fit on the describtion that is given in 1922 about the last years selection.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Gw9kAAAAIBAJ&sjid=2XoNAAAAIBAJ&pg=3902,6068563&dq

 

[Sanf]

I tried to hunt the 1922-1923 Ions selection. I found pay-per-view paper where it was mentioned that Ion selected two All Star teams and the date was feb 15. I couldn´t find anything from the free ones, but I assume that BM67 has already found that one. I did find one voted by Vancouver World readers (published in Morning Leader).

The Morning Leader - Feb 14, 1923
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=b0NYAAAAIBAJ&sjid=3jcNAAAAIBAJ&pg=4097%2C1912013

Now yes its probably very biased, but it raises a problem. (which I guess is partly known already)

The fans choice for the forward line comprises the three center men of the league. This shows that the Vancouver railbirds have not picked their all-star team the correct way.

Yet this is the same exact combo which Ion? selected. Its really hard to know how much creativity the selectors have used when choosing their All Star team. Going season by season to check which positions the players actually played is "nice" task.

 

[Sanf]

I haven´t had time to copy the articles, but here are Mickey Ions full selections for 1918-1919 and 1920-1921. I try to write full articles later.

1918-1919
The Seattle star March 03, 1919
http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn87093407/1919-03-03/ed-1/seq-13/#date1=1836

First team
G Lehman
D Johnson
D Rowe
R MacKay
C Morris
RW Wilson
LW Harris

Second team
G Holmes
D Cook
D Duncan
R Walker
C Taylor
RW Oatman
LW Foyston

This selection did not have spares

1920-1921
The Seattle star March 08, 1921
http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn87093407/1921-03-08/ed-1/seq-11/#date1=1836

First team
G Lehman
D Johnson (played R most of the season)
D Cook
R Walker
C Frederickson
LW Foyston (played C most of the season)
RW Adams (played C)
U Oatman
U Harris

Second Team
G Holmes
D Rickey
D C.Loughlin
R MacKay
C Riley (didn´t play C that season)
LW Morris (played RW and C)
RW Skinner
U Dunderdale
U W.Loughlin

This selection was criticized because Ion selected so many players out of position.

 

[Sanf]

From 1926 (~midseason) sporting editors of west, compiled their All-Star team. Originally published in Regina Post so mostly this is just a lead to a better article (this doesn´t really open up the selection system). Bill Cook was only unanimous choice. I also added links to my previous post about Ions selection.

Ottawa Citizen - Feb 1, 1926
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=82YuAAAAIBAJ&sjid=odkFAAAAIBAJ&pg=2837%2C6583062

Team selected
G Hainsworth
RD Shore
LD Trapp
C Keats
RW Bill Cook
LW Hay
Subs.
Corb Denneny
Frederickson
MacKay
Gagne
Managers
Lester Patrick
Frank Patrick

 

[Sanf]

I can´t link these because I don´t have newspapers.com account. I can only list the team from the free "text" version. I know that like this these are close to useless. At this point I´m giving up this project. In all honesty these start to feel too random and trivial even for me

These I guess were the ones that some of Trail, LOH, SIHR or Total hockey have used.

The Province selection in Winnipeg Tribune from 1912
March 9, 1912 The Winnipeg Tribune Page 21
G Hugh Lehman
P Frank Patrick
CP Ernie Johnson
R Lester Patrick
C Newsy Lalonde
RW Harry Hyland
LW Jimmy Gardner

The Province selection in Winnipeg Tribune From 1914
February 28, 1914 The Winnipeg Tribune Page 21
G Hugh Lehman
P Frank Patrick
CP Ernie Johnson
R Fred Taylor
C Tommy Dunderdale
RW Eddie Oatman
Lw Dubbie Kerr

1915 Selection
February 28, 1915 The Oregon Daily Journal Page 18
G Hugh Lehman
LD Lester Patrick
RD Ernie Johnson
R Fred Taylor
C Mickey Mackay
LW Frank Nighbor
RW Eddie Oatman
Spare
F Albert Kerr
D Charley Tobin

Other random selections

Oregon Daily journal selection
January 16, 1916 The Oregon Daily Journal Page 17
G Hugh Lehman
P Lester Patrick
CP Ernie Johnson
R Frank Foyston
C Eddie Oatman
RW Charley Tobin
LW Lloyd Cook

Tommy Phillips selected team
February 18, 1916 The Ottawa Journal Page 11
G Hugh Lehman
P Lester Patrick
CP Ernie Johnson
R Eddie Oatman
C Mickey Mackay
RW Charles Tobin
LW Jack Walker
Spare
D Si Griffis
F Lloyd Cook

 

[Sanf]

With help from overpass (Thank you) here is one more old finding. Mickey Ions WCHL and PCHA selections from 1923-1924. Only the teams were listed.

March 6, 1924 The Ottawa Journal Page 12
PCHA
G Hugh Lehman
D Gord Fraser
D Art Duncan
C Frank Frederickson
W Jack Walker
W Archie Briden
Subs
Frank Boucher
Frank Foyston
Clem Loughlin
Gizzy Hart

WCHL
G Red McCusker
D Red Dutton
D Percy Traub
C Duke Keats
F Bill Cook
F George Hay
Subs
Dick Irvin
Newsy Lalonde
Harry Oliver
Joe Simpson

As a bonus same article had NHL All-Star team by "Neutral picker".
G John Ross Roach
D Sprague Cleghorn
D George Boucher
C Frank Nighbor
RW Punch Broadbent
LW Cy Denneny

"One critic from Vancouver" (likely A.P. Garvey)
January 24, 1915 The Oregon Daily Journal Page 19
All Coast
G Hugh Lehman
P Si Griffis
CP Lester Patrick
R Fred Taylor
C Mickey MacKay
LW Frank Nighbor
RW Eddie Oatman

All Coast 2
G Mike Mitchell
P Ernie Johnson
CP Charles Tobin
R Skinner Poulin
RW Dubbie Kerr
C Ran McDonald
LW Art Throop

 

[ResilientBeast]

Another Poster did this about 8 years ago now, just a redo post, just trying to make it a little better aesthetically for people looking for this information. Will be updated
Digging through the stats section from Total Hockey

Total Hockey All Stars are in Purple

1922

1) Duke Keats, Red Dutton, Hay George, Joe Simpson, Barney Stanley,
2) Ty Arbour, Art Gagne, Dick Irvin, Bob Trapp, Percy Traub

1923

1) Duke Keats, Art Gagne, Hay George, Charley McVeigh, Joe Simpson, Barney Stanley, Bob Trapp
2) Archie Briden

Earl Campbell just listed as WCHL All Star Team (1923)

1924

1) Newsy Lalonde, Duke Keats, Archie Briden, Red Dutton, Hay George, Harry Oliver, Joe Simpson, Percy Traub
2)

Bill Cook just listed as WCHL All Star Team (1924)

1925

1) Duke Keats, Mickey Mackay, Harry Oliver, Joe Simpson
2)

Bill Cook just listed as WCHL All Star Team (1925)
Harry Holmes just listed as WCHL All Star Team (1925)

1926

1) Fred Fredrickson, Art Gagne, Hay George, Duke Keats, Mickey Mackay, Bob Trapp, Geoege Hainsworth
2)

Bill Cook just listed as WHL All Star Team (1926)
Corb Denney just listed as WHL All Star (1926)

 

[Sanf]

I don´t really know what to do with these . I keep stumbling to these Ions All-Stars selections. The problem really is that these are not always the same that LOH, Trail, or Total Hockey uses. With the all random All-Star selections the PCHA/WCHL... All-Star thread start to be really confusing I would guess. I have never seen neither Trail or Total Hockey so I don´t know what sources they are using, but I haven´t yet seen any that fits perfectly to their information (and I have seen many).

So I did find this thread and decided to put all of the Ions and other Coast referees selections that I have to this thread. If moderators want to attach this to the other thread thats fine (most of these really are already there in random order).

To make comparing more easier here is link to original thread
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=409927&page=2

1915-1916
Tommy Phillips selection. He refereed that season with Fred Ion.

The Ottawa Journal, 18 Feb 1916
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=96233591&postcount=16

TOMMY PHILLIPS ALL-STAR

Goal = Hugh Lehman, Vancouver
Point = Lester Patrick, Victoria
Cover Point = Moose Johnson, Portland
Rover = Eddie Oatman, Portland
Center = Mickey Mackay, Vancouver
Right Wing = Charley Tobin, Portland
Left Wing = Jack Walker, Seattle
Spare D = Si Griffis, Vancouver
Spare F = Lloyd Cook, Vancouver

1916-1917
Fred Ion, George Irvine and Jim Seaborn were the PCHA officials.

Spokane Daily Chronicle - Mar 2, 1917
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=lMZXAAAAIBAJ&sjid=NPQDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6664%2C2852016

COMPILED ALL-STAR FROM LEAGUE OFFICIALS VOTES

Goal = Hugh Lehman, Vancouver
Defense = Lester Patrick, Spokane
Defence = Moose Johnson, Portland
Rover = Dick Irvin, Portland
Center = Bernie Morris, Seattle
Wing = Smokey Harris, Portland
Wing = Gord Robers, Vancouver
Spare F = Dubbie Kerr, Spokane
Spare D = Jack Walker, Seattle

FRED IONS SELECTION

Goal = Hugh Lehman, Vancouver
Defense = Lester Patrick, Spokane
Defence = Moose Johnson, Portland
Rover = Dick Irvin, Portland
Center = Bernie Morris, Seattle
Wing = Smokey Harris, Portland
Wing = Gord Robers, Vancouver
Spare F = Dubbie Kerr, Spokane
Spare D = Jack Walker, Seattle

GEORGE IRVINES SELECTION

Goal = Hugh Lehman, Vancouver
Defense = Lester Patrick, Spokane
Defence = Moose Johnson, Portland
Rover = Dick Irvin, Portland
Center = Mickey MacKay, Vancouver
Wing = Smokey Harris, Portland
Wing = Gord Robers, Vancouver
Spare F = Tommy Dunderdale, Portland
Spare D = Frank Patrick, Vancouver

JAMES SEABORNS SELECTION

Goal = Hugh Lehman, Vancouver
Defense = Lester Patrick, Spokane
Defence = Moose Johnson, Portland
Rover = Dick Irvin, Portland
Center = Bernie Morris, Seattle
Wing = Smokey Harris, Portland
Wing = Gord Robers, Vancouver
Spare F = Dubbie Kerr, Spokane
Spare D = Jack Walker, Seattle


1917-1918
Irvine and Ion were the referees in PCHA.

The Toronto World - Mar 9, 1918
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=zbw6AAAAIBAJ&sjid=NSoMAAAAIBAJ&pg=1566%2C11811420

FRED IONS ALL-STARS

Goal = Hugh Lehman, Vancouver
Point = Lester Patrick, Seattle
Cover Point = Moose Johnson, Portland
Rover = Mickey Mackay, Vancouver
Center = Cyclone Taylor, Vancouver
Right Wing = Charley Tobin, Portland
Left Wing = Frank Foyston, Seattle
Spare = Tommy Dunderdale, Portland
Spare = Bernie Morris, Seattle

GEORGE IRVINES ALL-STARS

Goal = Hugh Lehman, Vancouver
Point = Lloyd Cook, Vancouver
Cover Point = Moose Johnson, Portland
Rover = Mickey Mackay, Vancouver
Center = Cyclone Taylor, Vancouver
Right Wing = Charley Tobin, Portland
Left Wing = Frank Foyston, Seattle
Spare = Bobby Rowe, Seattle
Spare = Eddie Oatman, Portland

The Calgary Daily Herald - Mar 6, 1918
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=NQZkAAAAIBAJ&sjid=znoNAAAAIBAJ&pg=1378%2C569168

I don´t know if this has anything to do with the referees selection.

OFFICIAL ALL-STAR TEAM ANNOUNCED BY FRANK PATRICK

Goal = No choice (tie)
Defence = Lloyd Cook, Vancouver
Defence = Moose Johnson, Portland
Rover = Mickey Mackay, Vancouver
Center = Cyclone Taylor, Vancouver
Right Wing = Charley Tobin, Portland
Left Wing = Frank Foyston, Seattle
Spare = Eddie Oatman, Portland


1918-1919

FDED ION was the lone PCHA referee

The Calgary Daily Herald - Mar 12, 1919
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=xg5kAAAAIBAJ&sjid=zXoNAAAAIBAJ&pg=1788%2C1239993

The Seattle star., March 03, 1919
http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn87093407/1919-03-03/ed-1/seq-13/#date1=1836

FIRST TEAM

Goal = Hugh Lehman, Vancouver
Defence = Moose Johnson, Victoria
Defense = Bobby Rowe, Seattle
Rover = Mickey MacKay, Vancouver
Center = Bernie Morris, Seattle
Left Wing = Smokey Harris, Vancouver
Right Wing = Cully Wilson, Seattle

SECOND TEAM

Goal = Hap Holmes, Seattle
Defense = Lloyd Cook, Vancouver
Defence = Art Duncan, Vancouver
Rover = Jack Walker, Seattle
Center = Cyclone Taylor, Vancouver
Left Wing = Frank Foyston, Seattle
Right Wing = Eddie Oatman, Victoria

1919-20

The Morning Leader - Mar 19, 1920
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=cF9YAAAAIBAJ&sjid=qzcNAAAAIBAJ&pg=4519,2655554&hl=en

The Calgary Daily Herald - Mar 9, 1920
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=ywZkAAAAIBAJ&sjid=4noNAAAAIBAJ&pg=2790,1030811&dq

FRED ION

FIRST TEAM

Goal = Hugh Lehman, Vancouver
Point = Lloyd Cook, Vancouver
Cover Point = Art Duncan, Vancouver
Rover = Frank Foyston, Seattle
Center = Tommy Dunderdale, Victoria
Right Wing = Eddie Oatman, Victoria
Left Wing = Smokey Harris, Vancouver

SECOND TEAM

Goal = Hap Holmes, Seattle
Point = Lester Patrick, Victoria
Cover Point = Bobby Rowe, Seattle
Rover = Jack Walker, Seattle
Center = Fred Taylor, Vancouver
Right Wing = Alf Skinner, Vancouver
Left Wing = Jim Riley, Seattle

1920-1921

The Seattle star., March 08, 1921
http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn87093407/1921-03-08/ed-1/seq-11/#date1=1836

FRED ION

FIRST TEAM

Goal = Hugh Lehman, Vancouver
Defense = Moose Johnson, Victoria
Defense = Lloyd Cook, Vancouver
Rover = Jack Walker, Seattle
Center = Frank Fredrickson, Victoria
Left Wing = Frank Foyston, Seattle
Right Wing = Jack Adams, Vancouver
Sub = Eddie Oatman, Victoria
Sub = Smokey Harris, Vancouver

SECOND TEAM

Goal = Hap Holmes, Seattle
Defense = Roy Rickey, Seattle
Defense = Clem Loughlin, Victoria
Rover = Mickey MacKay, Vancouver
Center = Jim Riley, Seattle
Left Wing = Bernie Morris, Seattle
Right Wing = Alf Skinner, Vancouver
Sub = Tommy Dunderdale, Victoria
Sub = Wilf Loughlin, Victoria

1921-1922


The Calgary Daily Herald - Feb 24, 1922
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Gw9kAAAAIBAJ&sjid=2XoNAAAAIBAJ&pg=3902,6068563&dq

FRED ION

FIRST TEAM

Goal = Hugh Lehman, Vancouver
Right Defense = Art Duncan, Vancouver
Left Defense = Eddie Oatman, Victoria
Rover = Mickey MacKay, Vancouver
Right Wing = Bernie Morris, Seattle
Center = Jack Adams, Vancouver
Left Wing = Tommy Dunderdale, Victoria
Sub = Frank Fredrickson, Victoria
Sub = Jack Walker, Seattle

SECOND TEAM

Goal = Hap Holmes, Seattle
Right Defense = Clem Loughlin, Victoria
Left Defense = Roy Rickey, Seattle
Rover = Harry Meeking, Victoria
Right Wing = Alf Skinner, Vancouver
Center = Frank Foyston, Seattle
Left Wing = Smokey Harris, Vancouver
Sub = Slim Halderson, Victoria
Sub = Jim Riley, Seattle


1923-1924

March 6, 1924 The Ottawa Journal Page 12
FRED ION

Goal = Hugh Lehman, Vancouver
Defense = Art Duncan, Vancouver
Defense = Gord Fracer, Seattle
Wing = Archie Briden, Seattle-Victoria
Center = Frank Fredrickson, Victoria
Wing = Jack Walker, Seattle
Sub = Frank Boucher, Vancouver
Sub = Frank Foyston, Seattle
Sub = Clem Loughlin, Victoria
Sub = Gizzy Hart, Victoria

WCHL/WHL

1923-1924

March 6, 1924 The Ottawa Journal Page 12
FRED ION

Goal = Red McCusker, Regina
Defense = Herb Gardiner, Calgary
Defense = Percy Traubb, Regina
Center = Duke Keats, Edmonton
Forward = George Hay. Regina
Forward = Bill Cook, Saskatoon
Sub = Dick Irvin, Regina
Sub = Harry Oliver, Calgary
Sub = Joe Simpson, Edmonton
Sub = Newsy Lalonde, Saskatoon

The Calgary Daily Herald - Mar 8, 1924
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=ThFkAAAAIBAJ&sjid=93oNAAAAIBAJ&pg=5399%2C979701

JAMES GARDNER WCHL REFEREE

Goal = Red McCusker, Regina
Defense = Herb Gardiner, Calgary
Defense = Bob Trapp, Edmonton
Defense = Percy Traubb, Regina
Center = Duke Keats, Edmonton
Forward = Harry Oliver, Calgary
Forward = George Hay. Regina
Forward = Bill Cook, Saskatoon
Forward = Dick Irvin, Regina

1924-1925

The Calgary Daily Herald - Mar 17, 1925
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=zCVkAAAAIBAJ&sjid=Z3sNAAAAIBAJ&pg=2375,1721300&dq

FRED ION

Goal = Hap Holmes, Victoria
Left Defense = Herb Gardiner, Calgary
Right Defense = Mervin Dutton, Calgary
Center = Mickey Mackay, Vancouver
Left Wing = George Hay, Regina
Right Wing = Bill Cook, Saskatoon
Sub F = Frank Frederickson. Victoria
Sub D = Bob Trapp, Edmonton

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Good work. Where do these awards conflict with the ones we had from Total Hockey or The Trail? We had assumed Mickey Ion was the source for the awards from Total Hockey and The Trail, but that doesn't seem to be the case?

 

[Sanf]

There were few copy paste errors. Hopefully those are now correct. Somehow thought that it would be easier way to do, but I was wrong. It was really hard to juggle with the same names.

I asume that the main thread list is compiled from The Trail and Total Hockey? As I said I have never seen those myself. I still believe that they probably have good source that I haven´t seen yet. There have been so many different kind of selections made that I guess that there is a risk that for some years they have used different selections.

The oddest one from those is the 1916-1917 selection. Referees has unanimously selected Hugh Lehman as their goalie. The thread lists Heck Fowler as first and Hap Holmes as second All-Star. Frank Foyston was selected as the league "MVP" by the four sport writers from the four different cities (Lou Kennedy Portland, A.P. Garvey Vancouver, Royal Brougham Seattle and J.S. Bain Spokane). Yet he is totally missing from the referee selections.

1917-1918 Lists Rowe and Morris as All-Stars, but referees disagree with that. Rowe is only sub in Irvines list and Morris in Ions list.

Some of the main thread list uses the same links so for those years the selections are obviously the same.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I noticed this line buried in an article about Ion's 1919 selections:

Heretofore the all-star teams have been selected by the official scorers in the various cities, but they have found it necessary to base their conclusions on what the players have shown at home. As a result all-star teams have been many and not once have they agreed on an entire squad. At the end of the coast race in 1917 the scorers agreed on all but one position, Holmes getting the call for the goalkeeping over "Eagle Eye" Hughie Lehman, the stalwart who guards the Vancouver nets.

Scorekeepers... could that explain the mystery selections listed in Trail/TH?

 

[Sanf]

I noticed this line buried in an article about Ion's 1919 selections:

Scorekeepers... could that explain the mystery selections listed in Trail/TH?

Could be, but I don´t remember seeing any of their selections anywhere. (deleted part I´m just confused again )

I have seem to give up with Calgary Herald just few days before this selection has published. I´m going to link this article also because its better than the Seattle Star one that I had. Thanks.
...

I was just coming to post because I also found hidden comment.

The Daily Colonist December 23, 1919

...After seeing Fowler, even in his first practice it is easy to understand why Mickey Ion selected him ahead of the veteran Eagle-Eye Lehman and Hap Holmes to guard the net in the mythical line-up of Pacific Coast players...

Now this doesn´t fit with the selections in list. Ion disagrees with himself. Fowler had missed the 1918-1919 due to war (Siberian intervention) and 1917-1918 Holmes was in East. Fowler and Holmes were in same league only in 1916-1917. I guess this might be mistake by the writer (though it would fit with the Trail/TH selection for that year). With all the respect all the writers weren´t especially good at remembering stuff like that.

 

[Sanf]

Scorekeepers... could that explain the mystery selections listed in Trail/TH?

Okay new try . Complitely missed the year in the article. Sorry. Should be more focused. Still it doens´t change things. Makes them more complicated. Trail/TH? gives Fowler, Scorekeepers selected Holmes (apparently) and referees (Ion) Lehman.

These are real headscratchers

 

[tarheelhockey]

I suppose that one thing we could do, even though it doesn't really solve the contradictions mentioned above, is to just look take the various ballots as "suggestions" and look for consensus where it might exist. In situations where there is no consensus, we can reasonably guess that there were multiple worthy candidates.

For example in 1916-17:

Hugh Lehman was the consensus best goalie, but it was close enough that Fowler and Holmes were justifiable picks.
Lester Patrick and Moose Johnson were clearly the consensus best defensemen.
Dick Irvin was clearly the consensus best rover.
Bernie Morris and Mickey MacKay were the two best centers, though MacKay seems to have been regarded as a rover by some. We can reasonably guess that Morris/MacKay was a coin flip.
Smokey Harris and Gord Roberts were clearly the consensus best wingmen.
Kerr/Walker/Dunderdale/Patrick/Rowe were the next tier of high quality players.

In 1917-18:

Lehman was the consensus best goalie.
Johnson was the consensus best defenseman.
MacKay was the consensus best rover.
Foyston was the consensus best LW.
Cyclone Taylor and Eddie Oatman were a coin flip for best center.
Tobin was likely the best RW, but not by consensus.
Cook was probably the next-best defenseman after Moose Johnson.
Fowler, Lester Patrick, Rowe, Stanley and Dunderdale were also in the conversation at their respective positions.


Again, this doesn't help resolve any of the muddle around who voted, but it's a way that we can put these ballots to use without getting stuck in the weeds.

 

[Sanf]

I suppose that one thing we could do, even though it doesn't really solve the contradictions mentioned above, is to just look take the various ballots as "suggestions" and look for consensus where it might exist. In situations where there is no consensus, we can reasonably guess that there were multiple worthy candidates.
...

Again, this doesn't help resolve any of the muddle around who voted, but it's a way that we can put these ballots to use without getting stuck in the weeds.

I agree with this. Atleast this is how I read those. More selectors with credibility is better than one mans opinion and compiletion can be made from their selections. Don´t know if this going to gain popularity though.

To get back to the scorekeepers selections I was again bit slow. The writers were the scorers (atleast so they were called) so yes I have seen atleast some of their selections.This is from the main thread and via member BM67. But this yet again contradicts what the Calgary Herald article says about scorekeepers agreeing everything but goalie selection in 1917. This is roughly from midseason so I guess the selections might not been strictly post season selections?

The Calgary Daily Herald - Feb 6, 1917
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=MwlkAAAAIBAJ&sjid=tXoNAAAAIBAJ&pg=1431%2C1722111

The same writers/scorers selected the "PCHA MVP" (which was really a Champion All-Around player like TDMM mentioned in some other thread). That happened after the season, but I haven´t found any post season selection from the writers.

Their individual votes for the "Champion All-Around player" were

A.P. Garvey Vancouver Province
1. Mickey Mackay Vancouver 2. Frank Foyston Seattle

Royal Brougham Seattle Post-Intelligencer
1. Frank Foyston Seattle 2. Jack Walker Seattle

J.S. Bain Spokane Review
1. Bernie Morris Seattle 2. Mickey MacKay Vancouver

Lou Kennedy Portland Telegram
1. Frank Foyston Seattle 2. Gord Roberts Vancouver

Source
The Spokesman-Review - Mar 6, 1917
(page 60 of that pile. Nicely sideways)
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=0klj8wIChNAC&dat=19170303&printsec=frontpage&hl=en

 

[Sanf]

I have went through bits of 1911-1912 PCHA season via Daily Colonist and only selection that I have seen was the leagues original selection to the PCHA-NHA All-Star game. It would be perfect fit to the one in the other thread (Trail?/TH?) + it had spares which were Lester Patrick and Jimmy Gardner. The other that I have found was the Vancouver Provinces one and that didn´t fit.

In one article it was said that the team was selected by Frank Patrick. Frank Patrick is also in the team. Not saying that he didn´t belong or that Patrick would seem to be man who would select himself over better players, but still if that is the "official" one it´s kind of funny.

 

[Sanf]

Leagues? selection for 1912-1913 is yet again another miss so don´t know about the last theory of mine. This was meant to be played against NHA All-Stars, but that never happened. Article is from newspaper from Victoria so possible bias in there.

Goal Bert Lindsay, Victoria
Point Lester Patrick, Victoria
Cover Point Ernie Johnson, Westminster
Rover Fred Taylor, Vancouver
Right Wing Eddie Oatman, Westminster
Left Wing Skinner Poulin, Victoria
Center Tommy Dunderdale, Victoria

The Daily Colonist February 25, 1913

STAR HOCKEY TEAM CHOSEN

That is the all-star Pacific Coast hockey team which will be pitted against the Eastern stars in case the Quebec Club turns down the proposition from Lester Patrick to play a series of games on the Coast, and it considered advisable to bring an Eastern all-star team West.

It will be noticed that four Victoria players are on the team, and it is just a question whether the Victoria defence from goal out wouldn´t be stronger than on selected. Goldie Prodgers has been very effective all this season, while Ernie Johnson has been lamentably weak at times.

Goal and Defence

Bert Lindsay has played sensational hockey in the net for the Capitals all season and he is the unanimous choice for the goal position; and Lester Patrick stands out head and shoulders over every other player on the Coast this year as defence player. He could get either the point or cover point position without argument. He has been given his former, and Johnson placed at cover in the hope that Ernie will be his old self.

Cyclone Taylor is a good choice for rover. The Cyclone´s spectacular methods may not always be in the best interests of the game, but he has shown sufficient unselfishness in his rushes to warrant his selection.

Tommy Dunderdale has already set a league record for goal-scoring, and he is the only possible pick for the centre position.

Walter Smaill would certainly be the man for left wing, but as he is unavailable, Skinner Poulin has deservedly been given the call. It is possible that Fred Harris, of Vancouver, will alternate with Skinner.

Now the selection of Eddie Oatman would fit to an later comment from Frank Patrick when Oatman was moving to East to 228th battalion.

The Toronto World - Nov 22, 1916
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=OkMBAAAAIBAJ&sjid=xykDAAAAIBAJ&pg=3590%2C6548470

...Of Oatman, I have nothing but admiration. He is a wonderful player, and the fact that during his four years service on the coast he was selected as an all-star each season shows clearly that he is one of the stars of hockey...

Also I have to mention that even when I keep posting these I think these are far from the most important issue in PCHA history . It just bothers me when these are used to evaluate players and the sources are unknown and the selections incomplite.