Rest or Refocus (KK and Laf to Hartford)?

[bouds]

Yeah, Kakko looked fine to start the year, but has since hit a brick wall. Laf on the other hand, dude is a ghost, just don't see anything from this kid.

Neither of these guys can carry the puck up the ice, I mean for two kids that went 1 and 2, just not acceptable. I'm a patient dude, they have time to figure it out, but their ceiling is way way lower than their draft slot. Hopefully they can become above average contributors, forget about becoming stars, that would be a really fortunate turnaround and I just don't see that as the base case at this stage of their careers.

 

[smoneil]

Lol, where were these takes when he looked good early during the season?

Right now Kakko is in a slump, and would deserve to be scratched. I don't think that's an outrageous take. But it is quite funny how despite still lacking in production, almost everyone here loved Kakkos game early on and during the majority of last season as well. Now all of sudden he's not going to be an NHL player anymore?

Frankly, I don't know. They probably should've been sent down when it still made some sense. Kakko during his first season, Laf early on this season. Now, it probably hurts their confidence even more. Kakko would have to clear waivers anyway which would not happen.

RE: the bold, that mindset scares me a bit, as I don't see Laf busting out of this funk with the NHL team. He's been a full calendar year in this fix, and once he gets to where Kakko and Chytil are, the option goes away. I think they need to send him down, but do it carefully. Talk to him before if gets announced and make it clear that it isn't a punishment--that they want him to get his swagger back and make a few strides because they need to rely on him in the playoffs. When the move is made, no smarmy "I'm not going to tell you why" nonsense. Say it plainly--they believe the kid is going to be a huge part of the team's future, but right now he needs minutes and he's blocked by two of the team's best players.

Also, the "Laf to RW" debate seems to be officially over with both Hunt AND Reaves seeming to be ahead of Laf in the RW pecking order.

 

[Hisch13r]

I don't know why people assume who they were as talents has anything to do with how they may or may not go about instruction.

All physics teachers aren't nuclear scientists. Being a nuclear scientist doesn't mean you'd be a good physics teacher. This is stupid.

But it isn't just about their talent as players. The reason it gets brought up is their talent as players AND also their performance "developing" players.

 

[Barnaby]

Delete

 

[Barnaby]

All of those players spent at least two years post draft in the minors or in college, racking up minutes in all situations. Chytil, Kakko, and Lafreniere have collectively spent only 55 games below the NHL level since being drafted (all 55 by Chytil). Laf and Chytil average less than 14 minutes per game for their careers to date. Kakko averages less than 15 (this season, he's averaging 16 minutes ToI/G).

Look at the comparables (kids thrown into the NHL immediately post draft):

-Stutzle was close to 16 minutes TOI/G in his rookie year, and is pushing 18 minutes this year. Plenty of PP time in both years.

-Lucas Raymond didn't play in the NHL last year, but this year, he's averaging almost 18 minutes TOI/G with plenty of PP time.

-Jack Hughes went from about 16 minutes with heavy PP time in his rookie year, to ~19 minutes per game in each of the last two years (still heavy PP usage).

-Kirby Dach only played ~14 minutes his rookie year, but then shot up to 18:30 and 19:30 for each of the last two years.

Having the prospects up with the NHL team is only useful if you are going to play them. Having them up for 4th line minutes, routinely finishing among the bottom 4 or 5 guys in ice time, is an absolute waste. It's like saying that you have a kid that you want to get in shape, and you have a choice between two gyms. One is world class, but the kid is barely allowed to use any of the equipment. The other a little dumpy, but the kid would be viewed as the most important person there. It's more likely to happen if you send the kid to the dumpy gym. Everyone in the NHL knows this. But the motherf***ing Rangers, as usual, had to act like they knew better than the rest of the league how to develop top of the draft talent (you know, based on their experience of never having had such talent in the last 60 years).

One could also say that you’re looking for excuses. The Rangers are begging to give them more ice time on the top lines (Kakko has gotten it despite being mediocre at best), and both have been quite underwhelming. The Rangers aren’t holding them back. They began the season thrusting them into bigger roles.

Saying they get 4th line minutes is completely insincere. Laf started the season on the top line. Kakko has spent the Lion share of his ice time with Panarin or Zibanejad despite not doing 50% of what Buch or even Blackwell did last season. They both play around 15 min per game. I’m not buying that 17 minutes per game is making them significantly better.

 

[smoneil]

One could also say that you’re looking for excuses. The Rangers are begging to give them more ice time on the top lines (Kakko has gotten it despite being mediocre at best), and both have been quite underwhelming. The Rangers aren’t holding them back. They began the season thrusting them into bigger roles.

The bolded is true of Kakko. Not for Laf or Chytil (at the very least not for any longer than a handful of games). Both Laf and Chytil are seeing less time than they did last year. Chytil just had a great run of games, where even his detractors were praising him...and he gets dumped to 4th line minutes in place of Dryden Hunt. It's clueless.

And I'm not looking for excuses. The team has, honestly, already f***ed up Chytil and Kakko beyond redemption. They no longer have the option to send those two down without waivers, and they refuse to give them the minutes at the NHL level to develop. They will either fizzle out, get traded as an add-on, or ask for a trade to a team that actually wants them. Laf can still be re-started in terms of his development, but they need to get over their pride and send him to the NHL to get some minutes. He got the 3rd fewest minutes of any Rangers skater against Carolina (only seeing more TOI than Chytil and McKegg). I get that he's behind Bread and Kreider, but if he's not at least above Hunt, Reaves, and Rooney when the team is in need of offense? Then he's clearly not needed in a "win now" situation. Send him down and hope he comes back with a bit of confidence and swagger.

 

[ThirdEye]

They'll both get more than a week to not think about hockey soon. I'm hoping the break will give them a reset but I get the sense they will both need an entire offseason to wash the mediocrity away

 

[ThirdEye]

On a side note, I'm starting to get the feeling that Kakko just isn't built for the bright lights, hustle and bustle and crazy high expectations that come with playing in a large market like NY. It's just a hunch, but I can see him asking out for that reason sooner than later to go play for a team in a less hectic setting

 

[effen]

But it isn't just about their talent as players. The reason it gets brought up is their talent as players AND also their performance "developing" players.

The obvious implication is because they sucked as players they know nothing and are teaching the kids to be talentless slugs. No one has any metrics to evaluate them on this board.

It's still ANOTHER way to avoid blaming the actual culprits, the players. Endless excuses for our poor boys from the mom brigade.

 

[CLW]

The bolded is true of Kakko. Not for Laf or Chytil (at the very least not for any longer than a handful of games). Both Laf and Chytil are seeing less time than they did last year. Chytil just had a great run of games, where even his detractors were praising him...and he gets dumped to 4th line minutes in place of Dryden Hunt. It's clueless.

And I'm not looking for excuses. The team has, honestly, already f***ed up Chytil and Kakko beyond redemption. They no longer have the option to send those two down without waivers, and they refuse to give them the minutes at the NHL level to develop. They will either fizzle out, get traded as an add-on, or ask for a trade to a team that actually wants them. Laf can still be re-started in terms of his development, but they need to get over their pride and send him to the NHL to get some minutes. He got the 3rd fewest minutes of any Rangers skater against Carolina (only seeing more TOI than Chytil and McKegg). I get that he's behind Bread and Kreider, but if he's not at least above Hunt, Reaves, and Rooney when the team is in need of offense? Then he's clearly not needed in a "win now" situation. Send him down and hope he comes back with a bit of confidence and swagger.

What's the point in sending Laf or Kakko down to the AHL? Serious question. When they come back up it will be the same situation again. No PP, never receiving the puck in dangerous areas because that's not their job as the system is currently. In other words, not much chance to rack up points in a misfiring 5v5 system.

Panarin and Strome look offensively dangerous 5v5 but they do that by cheating on their defensive assignments. Laf and Kakko are asked to play defensively responsible hockey and are then whipped with "wHeRe's ThE OfFeNcE"?

The problems are much deeper than just "confidence" and "play time". Half the team are trying to be responsible to the system, the other half (the stars) is improvising as they go and the stars only need donkeys to dig out pucks for them and do the defensive work for them.

Look at Kakko, he is adaptable and conscientious, he works his assignments, plays to the X and O's, he is being a good boy - yet has no chemistry with the stars. Kakko and Laf are both asked to play a grinding game along the boards, Kakko can do it up to a point, but neither of them have their full strength yet and their game suffers from it. "It's a MAN's game" shouts Gallant.

If there is one thing they need more than confidence is to say *F*ck this Sh*t*.

 

[smoneil]

What's the point in sending Laf or Kakko down to the AHL? Serious question. When they come back up it will be the same situation again. No PP, never receiving the puck in dangerous areas because that's not their job as the system is currently. In other words, not much chance to rack up points in a misfiring 5v5 system.

Panarin and Strome look offensively dangerous 5v5 but they do that by cheating on their defensive assignments. Laf and Kakko are asked to play defensively responsible hockey and are then whipped with "wHeRe's ThE OfFeNcE"?

The problems are much deeper than just "confidence" and "play time". Half the team are trying to be responsible to the system, the other half (the stars) is improvising as they go and the stars only need donkeys to dig out pucks for them and do the defensive work for them.

Look at Kakko, he is adaptable and conscientious, he works his assignments, plays to the X and O's, he is being a good boy - yet has no chemistry with the stars. Kakko and Laf are both asked to play a grinding game along the boards, Kakko can do it up to a point, but neither of them have their full strength yet and their game suffers from it. "It's a MAN's game" shouts Gallant.

If there is one thing they need more than confidence is to say *F*ck this Sh*t*.

I agree with pretty much everything in your post. Re: the bolded? Because it should have happened a year ago--he should have been sent back down the second they realized he wasn't ready for top six action in the NHL (which was right around the beginning of February last season, if you look at the dip in his minutes). Don't want to send him down to juniors, where he had nothing left to prove? Fine, I get that, but then look at this year. He had a good pre-season, but after 7 games, it was clear that they were largely done with giving him opportunities in the top six. He only had 2 games over 15 minutes after that span (until the stretch earlier this month where we were missing a bunch of players and everyone got more time--but the last couple games, with everyone back? He's back to 12, 13 minutes a night). He should have been in the AHL after those first 7 games. They have a potential elite player in this league. He needs minutes and experience and the chance to build confidence (and a lower-stakes opportunity to learn how to play RW if that's where they want him). He's not going to get that playing 4th line grinder minutes. As for what the point is? It's that I HOPE they can still get him going if they do what they should have done months ago. Because what they've been doing with the kid for the last 13 months? It ain't working. And if they don't do something different soon, the option to send him down won't be available anymore (due to waiver eligibility).

 

[CLW]

I agree with pretty much everything in your post. Re: the bolded? Because it should have happened a year ago--he should have been sent back down the second they realized he wasn't ready for top six action in the NHL (which was right around the beginning of February last season, if you look at the dip in his minutes). Don't want to send him down to juniors, where he had nothing left to prove? Fine, I get that, but then look at this year. He had a good pre-season, but after 7 games, it was clear that they were largely done with giving him opportunities in the top six. He only had 2 games over 15 minutes after that span (until the stretch earlier this month where we were missing a bunch of players and everyone got more time--but the last couple games, with everyone back? He's back to 12, 13 minutes a night). He should have been in the AHL after those first 7 games. They have a potential elite player in this league. He needs minutes and experience and the chance to build confidence (and a lower-stakes opportunity to learn how to play RW if that's where they want him). He's not going to get that playing 4th line grinder minutes. As for what the point is? It's that I HOPE they can still get him going if they do what they should have done months ago. Because what they've been doing with the kid for the last 13 months? It ain't working. And if they don't do something different soon, the option to send him down won't be available anymore (due to waiver eligibility).

Imo the Rangers should move heaven and earth to find a C that can play with Laf/Kakko. Strome has chemistry with Laf but Panarin apparently cannot live without his BFF. Zib is a horse but he lives mostly by his skating and shot, Kreider the same. Strome is a setup guy - both Kakko and Laf look at their best when they have someone to play off from, but Panarin has seniority and $11.5 m cap rank and he wants one too. Chytil's future is as a winger.

 

[Crease]

Chytil, Kakko and Laf are not getting better. The organization is shielding them from criticism at this point.

 

[RangerBlues]

Send them down for the rest of the season. Play them on the same line 25 min a night.

 

[CLW]

Chytil, Kakko and Laf are not getting better. The organization is shielding them from criticism at this point.

Hypocrisy. If anything Panarin e.g. is playing noticeably worse this year than previously, the £11.5m player is downright weak on most nights lately but the media guys don't dare breathe a word about that. Panarin and Zib frequently play like poo but get a point or two off the PP and everyone goes on about how great they are and what a load they carry. Personally I am looking at these BIG MONEY stars to carry the play 5v5, which they don't - they live off the PP. And no, the 5v5 game is not breaking down at the Kakko, Chytil or Laf point. It's a team and coaching problem.

 

[smoneil]

Imo the Rangers should move heaven and earth to find a C that can play with Laf/Kakko. Strome has chemistry with Laf but Panarin apparently cannot live without his BFF. Zib is a horse but he lives mostly by his skating and shot, Kreider the same. Strome is a setup guy - both Kakko and Laf look at their best when they have someone to play off from, but Panarin has seniority and $11.5 m cap rank and he wants one too. Chytil's future is as a winger.

See, for me, if they were dead set on keeping the kids in the NHL, Strome would have been moved two seasons ago. Top line becomes Bread-Zib-Buch. Second/Third lines become Laf--veteran "grizzled" 2C--Kakko and Kreider--Chytil--and another middle-six vet RW.

Kids defer to in their prime stars. To keep the kids up, they would need to get minutes AND have some folks on their line whom they wouldn't defer to, but WOULD listen to (Crosby had guys like John LeClair, Ryan Whitney, Mark Recchi, Ryan Malone, Colby Armstrong--a nice mix of mid-20s guys who were already developed players and grizzled vets who had been there). We needed guys who would be there to basically be on-ice mentors to the kids on their lines. Strome was right in the middle of his own career re-invention, so that wouldn't (and honestly shouldn't) have been his top priority. I would have wanted the team to be on guys like Mikku Koivu or Brassard for center, and either Toffoli, Craig Smith, or (ideally) just re-signing Jesper Fast for that RW spot.

That would have given us something like this two seasons ago:

Bread-Zib-Buch
Laf-Brassard-Kakko
Kreider-Chytil-C.Smith

That team wouldn't win a ton, but a lot of those kids would likely be closer to their potential by now.

 

[smoneil]

Chytil, Kakko and Laf are not getting better. The organization is shielding them from criticism at this point.

The organization was "shielding" Chytil from 4 in his last 5 by playing him 12 minutes on the 4th line in place of Hunt, eh? Interesting theory.

 

[CLW]

See, for me, if they were dead set on keeping the kids in the NHL, Strome would have been moved two seasons ago. Top line becomes Bread-Zib-Buch. Second/Third lines become Laf--veteran "grizzled" 2C--Kakko and Kreider--Chytil--and another middle-six vet RW.

Kids defer to in their prime stars. To keep the kids up, they would need to get minutes AND have some folks on their line whom they wouldn't defer to, but WOULD listen to (Crosby had guys like John LeClair, Ryan Whitney, Mark Recchi, Ryan Malone, Colby Armstrong--a nice mix of mid-20s guys who were already developed players and grizzled vets who had been there). We needed guys who would be there to basically be on-ice mentors to the kids on their lines. Strome was right in the middle of his own career re-invention, so that wouldn't (and honestly shouldn't) have been his top priority. I would have wanted the team to be on guys like Mikku Koivu or Brassard for center, and either Toffoli, Craig Smith, or (ideally) just re-signing Jesper Fast for that RW spot.

That would have given us something like this two seasons ago:

Bread-Zib-Buch
Laf-Brassard-Kakko
Kreider-Chytil-C.Smith

That team wouldn't win a ton, but a lot of those kids would likely be closer to their potential by now.

Yeah I agree, but that's in the past now. What do the Rangers do now is the pressing question. I don't think the kids are playing outright bad hockey, Kakko is objectively playing well even if the offensive confidence is sorely lacking, it's just that they look like they are not a fit at all with the BFF's who simply insist on playing their BFF hockey - going back to what you highlighted above.

 

[CLW]

@smoneil

Come to think of it, Imo the Rangers need to do your plan with modification to the current setting. Get in a guy like Lehkonen - mid 20s, as a priority. Also upgrade on Nemeth with a similar good pro mid-20s guy to bridge the gap between the kids and the vets in the locker room somewhat.

 

[smoneil]

Yeah I agree, but that's in the past now. What do the Rangers do now is the pressing question. I don't think the kids are playing outright bad hockey, Kakko is objectively playing well even if the offensive confidence is sorely lacking, it's just that they look like they are not a fit at all with the BFF's who simply insist on playing their BFF hockey - going back to what you highlighted above.

My first choice would be to send Laf to Hartford and let him rip them apart for all of February. Let him get comfortable in his own skates again, ease his grip on the stick a bit, and re-connect with himself as THE guy on a line. Sadly, I see absolutely no way that the team would ever do this.

That being the case, we need to spread some of the vets around rather than bunching them up on two lines.

I'd spend a 2nd and a depth piece (Hajek or Gaut) on a rental RW.

Then I'd roll out lines of:

Laf-Zib-Rental RW

Bread-Strome-Goodrow

Kreider-Chytil-Kakko

Hunt-Rooney-Reaves


The team has built up enough points to pretty safely be in the playoff picture barring an absolute collapse. Use that. Deal with the growing pains of having Laf on the top line. FINALLY settle on that bottom pair D. Split up the PP--yeah, I know it's good, but we need both units to be good, and we need space for the kids to be part of that--and then roll PP1 and PP2 equally. In short, stumble now for a bit in order to sprint by the end of the season.

 

[smoneil]

@smoneil

Come to think of it, Imo the Rangers need to do your plan with modification to the current setting. Get in a guy like Lehkonen - mid 20s, as a priority. Also upgrade on Nemeth with a similar good pro mid-20s guy to bridge the gap between the kids and the vets in the locker room somewhat.

My only concern with upgrading Nemeth is that to get anyone who is a TRUE upgrade, the price would be prohibitive. At that point, you might as well toss in more, to get a Chychrun, but then you just end up with Miller on the bottom pair and have the same problem you started with (bottom pair too green). Unless you paired Chychrun with Fox and moved Lindgren to the bottom pair, but that might not be a popular move in the locker room.

 

[Crease]

The organization was "shielding" Chytil from 4 in his last 5 by playing him 12 minutes on the 4th line in place of Hunt, eh? Interesting theory.

My only point is that if the organization is unhappy with the kids’ progress, they aren't saying it publicly.

 

[smoneil]

My only point is that if the organization is unhappy with the kids’ progress, they aren't saying it publicly.

True. At this point, though, I can't fathom how anyone could look at the developmental issues amongst young forwards in this org and NOT conclude that there is a serious issue in the way they develop them. Not counting Othmann, if these three don't come around, that would be 5 consecutive first round forward picks who busted. Six if you count shoving Miller out the door. Literally, other than Kreider (and Miller, if you count him--I can see arguments in either direction), you have to go all the way back to Kovalev to find a top-six, 1st round forward developed by this team. That's a record of 2 or 3 successes out of 17 overall forwards drafted in that span.

My only hope at this point is that they HAVE realized that and are quietly making changes, thus the not saying anything publicly bit.