Remembering When II - We Had a Players Coach & Team Toughness

[Jimmy Firecracker]

I agree mostly but why do you think Boston gooned it up in Game 2 after losing Game 1 and don't you think that turned out to be an effective strategy?

It was only effective because the refs were and let them get away with it all.

 

[Teeder Keon]

How many people know this song is the bigger question lol

 

[KuleminFan41]

To be fair, if it weren't for Grabovski mocking the B's bench during the final 10 mins of the game (pointing at the score board) and Reimer playing with the same poise of a cat on skates, the Leafs would of won that series despite going in as massive underdogs. Who knows what would of happened after that.

They were outplayed that entire series , what happened was a culmination of the Leafs playing above their means and imploding because they didn't actually have the team to handle playoff hockey. They were not a very good team, as evidence by them not making the playoffs after that season until Babcock. You have to remember, the Leafs were in a downward trend down that final stretch of games having lost 4 of their last 6 games. They struggled to clinch and had the season been longer, they may have missed the playoffs.

The point is, people exaggerate how successful playing that style of hockey is, especially in today's game. The game is just different today and there's no sense in glorifying past failures because they played "tough". I loved those teams too but the past is in the past and while there are some things that can be altered, wanting to go back to the early 00's style of play, will be a disaster

 

[napoleon in rags]

How many people know this song is the bigger question lol

I couldn't decide between that one and this one...

 

[Teeder Keon]

I couldn't decide between that one and this one...

Unfortunately I know both

 

[Hustlr]

One player CAN turn this team around.

I just saw that Doug Gilmour thread (and don’t tell me you didn’t) and instantly I was like &^$* &*** WE’RE WINNING THE CUP!!!!!! Obviously for a millisecond in my imagination but yes, one player could turn this team.

I think we have the tools, we just don’t have an initiator. We just need one person to start it and the change will happen.

 

[Budz22]

Remember when all they had was “toughness” and no skill? And all we wanted was skill. Then we drafted Nylander and everyone was happy. Now he should be the first to go. Only our fan base.

 

[egd27]

I remember when the Leafs had a great tough team back in 2013 where they played heavy, hit a ton and had the most fights in the league. Then they played the Bruins in the playoffs and got out played virtually every game of the series and some how managed to not only take the series to game 7 but have a lead going into the final 12 minutes of the 3rd. I think we all know how that game turned out. Playing that "old school" style of hockey utterly failed them as the Leafs embarrassed themselves in game 7 in less than 20 minutes .

The past is the past, you can't keep looking at it and trying to apply everything that had a tiny bit of success , to today.

Thats not a particularly strong example IMO......a far less skilled team, by playing with heart, resilience, and toughness got as far against a superior team, than the most recent teams that were arguably "better" than the opposing team.

Thats your argument against a "great tough team"?

 

[Trapper]

Remember when all they had was “toughness” and no skill? And all we wanted was skill. Then we drafted Nylander and everyone was happy. Now he should be the first to go. Only our fan base.

Seems to me the answer is right in the middle of your post. Skill with “toughness” or rather blue collar skill. Hard working, aggressive skill.

Toughness (or aggressive) no skill = no
Skill no toughness (or passive) = no

Balance of the 2 = yes

 

[Martin Skoula]

Thats not a particularly strong example IMO......a far less skilled team, by playing with heart, resilience, and toughness got as far against a superior team, than the most recent teams that were arguably "better" than the opposing team.

Thats your argument against a "great tough team"?

Yeah, it was Kessel's heart and toughness that got them that far, not having functional special teams.

2013: 5 PP goals for, 3 PP goals against
2019: 3 PP goals for, 7 PP goals against

 

[KuleminFan41]

Thats not a particularly strong example IMO......a far less skilled team, by playing with heart, resilience, and toughness got as far against a superior team, than the most recent teams that were arguably "better" than the opposing team.

Thats your argument against a "great tough team"?

The fact that the Leafs got as far as they did, only showed that Boston took them lightly more than anything because they lost 1 game in the following 2 rounds against real cup contenders Rangers and Penguins. Think of it this way, this current Leafs team, with "no heart, no toughness and no grit" took Boston, which has a good chunk of that core still, to 2 more game 7's these past 2 years and in fact, played significantly better than that team this past May even if the outcome was the same. Boston beat the Leafs in 2013 because they were smart enough to avoid getting into a dog fight that the Leafs wanted, so they used their skill to beat the Leafs.

 

[Pookie]

Yeah, it was Kessel's heart and toughness that got them that far, not having functional special teams.

2013: 5 PP goals for, 3 PP goals against
2019: 3 PP goals for, 7 PP goals against

Amazing to me that people miss the connection between heart and special teams performance.

In the playoffs, lanes get crowded. You have to be willing to fight to get to scoring areas.

If you don’t have that will, you play the perimeter. And odds go down.

On the P.K., if you have shot blockers and those willing to clear the lanes, your goals against go down.

A gritty team contributes to success in those areas. A soft team does not.

Sheesh.

 

[Martin Skoula]

Amazing to me that people miss the connection between heart and special teams performance.

In the playoffs, lanes get crowded. You have to be willing to fight to get to scoring areas.

If you don’t have that will, you play the perimeter. And odds go down.

On the P.K., if you have shot blockers and those willing to clear the lanes, your goals against go down.

A gritty team contributes to success in those areas. A soft team does not.

Sheesh.

So to be clear, you think that PP was better because Kessel JVR and Bozak were "fighting to get to the scoring areas".

And our PK was worse not because of a 20% faceoff rate giving Bergeron free possession, but because Phaneuf and McClemment blocked shots and cleared lanes.

 

[Pookie]

So to be clear, you think that PP was better because Kessel JVR and Bozak were "fighting to get to the scoring areas".

And our PK was worse not because of a 20% faceoff rate giving Bergeron free possession, but because Phaneuf and McClemment blocked shots and cleared lanes.

I think the entire team had confidence that was created as a result of the attitude. A confidence sparked by guys like Orr they played all 7 playoff games. A willingness to fight for each other and knowing someone had your back.

It’s ok if you don’t get it.

 

[Martin Skoula]

I think the entire team had confidence that was created as a result of the attitude. A confidence sparked by guys like Orr they played all 7 playoff games. A willingness to fight for each other and knowing someone had your back.

It’s ok if you don’t get it.

Colton Orr played an average of 6:31 in those games. That's amazing that he managed to inspire Kessel to battle for the dangerous areas on the PP with only 6 minutes of ice time.

Maybe Orr would have inspired Hyman to un-tear his ACL and do better than 20% on PK faceoffs.

 

[egd27]

Amazing to me that people miss the connection between heart and special teams performance.

In the playoffs, lanes get crowded. You have to be willing to fight to get to scoring areas.

If you don’t have that will, you play the perimeter. And odds go down.

On the P.K., if you have shot blockers and those willing to clear the lanes, your goals against go down.

A gritty team contributes to success in those areas. A soft team does not.

Sheesh.

It's really bizarre to me that so many seem to think "toughness" is having guys like Colten Orr or Frazer McClaren (sp?).

I suppose we shall see if Dubas' is a true visionary or just another guy with an incorrect theory.

 

[Pookie]

Colton Orr played an average of 6:31 in those games. That's amazing that he managed to inspire Kessel to battle for the dangerous areas on the PP with only 6 minutes of ice time.

Maybe Orr would have inspired Hyman to un-tear his ACL and do better than 20% on PK faceoffs.

It’s ok that you don’t get it.

 

[Pookie]

It's really bizarre to me that so many seem to think "toughness" is having guys like Colten Orr or Frazer McClaren (sp?).

I suppose we shall see if Dubas' is a true visionary or just another guy with an incorrect theory.

Dubas doesn’t buy into the physicality argument. He said so.

We will have what we have.

 

[Hustlr]

It's really bizarre to me that so many seem to think "toughness" is having guys like Colten Orr or Frazer McClaren (sp?).

I suppose we shall see if Dubas' is a true visionary or just another guy with an incorrect theory.

McLaren, like the car

 

[hector morrison]

I remember when the Leafs had a great tough team back in 2013 where they played heavy, hit a ton and had the most fights in the league. Then they played the Bruins in the playoffs and got out played virtually every game of the series and some how managed to not only take the series to game 7 but have a lead going into the final 12 minutes of the 3rd. I think we all know how that game turned out. Playing that "old school" style of hockey utterly failed them as the Leafs embarrassed themselves in game 7 in less than 20 minutes .

The past is the past, you can't keep looking at it and trying to apply everything that had a tiny bit of success , to today.

How is this a relevant take? What does that 'tough team' have to do with a 3rd period collapse in a game 7? I saw it...did you? They didn't lose in the final 10 minutes of a 7 game series because they were a tough team.
Would you say that St.Louis finessed their way to the Stanley Cup or how about Washington. a good balance of skilled players who can handle the rough patches and guys who know how to dish it out is usually a good team. The Leafs don't have that at the moment.

 

[Martin Skoula]

It’s ok that you don’t get it.

Out of curiosity, how did you feel about the Clarkson signing?

 

[Bomber0104]

Out of curiosity, how did you feel about the Clarkson signing?

Out of curiosity, how do you feel about players taking open runs at Auston Matthews, Fredrick Andersen, John Tavares, Travis Dermott (out half a year), Jake Muzzin, Tyson Barrie, etc. with absolutely zero response from anyone on the Leafs?

Please answer because I'm genuinely curious.

 

[IPS]

I think the entire team had confidence that was created as a result of the attitude. A confidence sparked by guys like Orr they played all 7 playoff games. A willingness to fight for each other and knowing someone had your back.

It’s ok if you don’t get it.

Colton Orr had absolutely nothing to do with how the special teams performed.

It appears you are the one who doesn't understand.

 

[IPS]

Colton Orr played an average of 6:31 in those games. That's amazing that he managed to inspire Kessel to battle for the dangerous areas on the PP with only 6 minutes of ice time.

Maybe Orr would have inspired Hyman to un-tear his ACL and do better than 20% on PK faceoffs.

Don't you love those types of responses?

You counter their argument with objective facts and they come at you with some vague cliche BS and pretend they have the upper hand in the argument.

Cute really.

 

[Bomber0104]

Colton Orr played an average of 6:31 in those games. That's amazing that he managed to inspire Kessel to battle for the dangerous areas on the PP with only 6 minutes of ice time.

Maybe Orr would have inspired Hyman to un-tear his ACL and do better than 20% on PK faceoffs.

It's easy to pretend that toughness, grit, and intimidation doesn't exist in hockey...

Sitting behind your keyboard and all