Remember the Caps and Blues

[ponder]

Like most Leafs fans, our lack of playoff success with this core bums me out. However … that doesn’t mean we should start over.

In Ovie’s first 12 seasons with the Caps, they never went past round 2. Year after year, ppl said this core couldn’t get it done, that they had soft players without the will to win. There were endless calls to tear it down, but they didn’t. They moved pieces around, but never moved the central core of Ovie, Backstrom, Kuzie, Carlson, Wilson, Holtby, etc. - Semin leaving as a UFA was the main core departure. In season 13 everything finally went their way, and they won the cup.

The Blues are a bit less similar to us, but they had 7 years of being a strong team, with a similar core that generally disappointed in the playoffs, tonnes of calls to break the team up. Then they won the cup in year 8.

People underrate the impact of luck in hockey - teams are so evenly balanced, bounces play a huge role. How often do we see nearly identical teams win a cup and lose in round 1 in back-to-back years? IMO our best chance to win a cup in the remotely near future is to extend Matthews, Marner and Nylander, and continue to build contenders around them and Rielly.

Sure, there are counter examples. The Sharks kept trying and never got there, there are zero guarantees. But everyone who wants to rebuild now, 7 years into Matthews’ Leafs career, would’ve also broken up the Caps WAY before their cup in year 13 with Ovie.

Click to read more...

 

[57 Years No Cup]

 

[Nineteen67]

The difference
Marner
Tavares
Matthews
Nylander

Ovie was one of the best players at the WJHC and battled against Sid. Auston Matthews played showcase hockey.

 

[andora]

This feeling of waiting for it to happen is how they play in my opinion

 

[LeafGrief]

They moved on from a 40 goal scorer in Semin and the highest scoring defenseman in the NHL Mike Green. Kuznetsov wasn't a star player until 15-16, 10 years after Ovi had been in the league. Wilson has only been a core piece the last five years. The Caps missed the playoffs entirely in 13-14, and were at that point a vastly different team than who they'd been five years prior.

We are going to hold on to some of our pieces, there is no real way that a full teardown is going to happen here. But moving on from some of these early Matthews era big names is inevitable and desirable. Trading Marner does not mean we're tearing it down to the studs.

The lesson from both the Caps and the Blues is that you need to be willing to move on from some of those big names, and that injections of new talent over the years are necessary to change the team's composition to finally win the cup. There is zero doubt that this Leafs team has enough talent to win. We all have eyeballs, we can see their talent and count their stats. But at the same time, this team doesn't click and the Caps didn't stick with Brooks Laich as their 2c for a decade. If we're going to be a threat for the next decade, we need to draft our Carlson, Kuznetsov, Orlov, and Wilson. Trade for our O'Rielly.

 

[ACC1224]

Isn’t that what this guy is saying?

The Case For Bringing Back The Core

I would agree with this approach because I’ve always viewed Dubas and Bozo the Keefe as being the biggest problems. Having a competent GM who understands how to construct a roster that compliments the strengths of the core and compensates for the weaknesses of the core would be a massive...

forums.hfboards.com

 

[kevsh]

But everyone who wants to rebuild now,

Who wants to rebuild?

The main complaint about this group is there is too much money locked into 4 players, who collectively have not elevated their game in the playoffs, and the leftover cap space isn't enough to surround them with the depth needed to win.

From what I've seen here the "blow it up crowd" I believe would generally be fine if just one of the 4 were moved and a big, dependable d-man along with solid depth up front brought in with the cap space saved.

Easier said than done, but I think most of us just want something done to shake up a core that is not working.

 

[thusk]

Who wants to rebuild?

The main complaint about this group is there is too much money locked into 4 players, who collectively have not elevated their game in the playoffs, and the leftover cap space isn't enough to surround them with the depth needed to win.

From what I've seen here the "blow it up crowd" I believe would generally be fine if just one of the 4 were moved and a big, dependable d-man along with solid depth up front brought in with the cap space saved.

Easier said than done, but I think most of us just want something done to shake up a core that is not working.

Im agree too much for core vs d but pandemic really hurt leafs... matthews/marner had been sign by considerating salary cap will still raising but 5 year later, its pratically the same cap hit.

You added all injuries to Muzzin, they lost their #2 D ( 3 of last 4 playoff) and its pretty hard to replace a good #2...

Leafs had been a little bit unlucky that way but leafs need to make the smart move next 2 season.

 

[BallardEra]

They moved on from a 40 goal scorer in Semin and the highest scoring defenseman in the NHL Mike Green. Kuznetsov wasn't a star player until 15-16, 10 years after Ovi had been in the league. Wilson has only been a core piece the last five years. The Caps missed the playoffs entirely in 13-14, and were at that point a vastly different team than who they'd been five years prior.

We are going to hold on to some of our pieces, there is no real way that a full teardown is going to happen here. But moving on from some of these early Matthews era big names is inevitable and desirable. Trading Marner does not mean we're tearing it down to the studs.

The lesson from both the Caps and the Blues is that you need to be willing to move on from some of those big names, and that injections of new talent over the years are necessary to change the team's composition to finally win the cup. There is zero doubt that this Leafs team has enough talent to win. We all have eyeballs, we can see their talent and count their stats. But at the same time, this team doesn't click and the Caps didn't stick with Brooks Laich as their 2c for a decade. If we're going to be a threat for the next decade, we need to draft our Carlson, Kuznetsov, Orlov, and Wilson. Trade for our O'Rielly.

Oshie was also a great trade for the Caps.

 

[PromisedLand]

OMG are we still pushing Dubas' crap? Come on people...

NJ is not a low / zero income tax and the Devils now have Hughes, Bratt, and Hischier at 7.25-8.0 AAV, and Hamilton at 9.0. The core four if you will at 32 AAV combined.

Timo Meier is probably going to sign around the same i.e. for arpproximately 40 million Devils will have 5 guys signed up long term for good chunk moving forward.

Leafs have 40 million in just 4 guys (Matthews, 11.6, Marne 11, Tavares, 11, Nylander 7) of which two are already up for renewal (matthews, nylander).

This is not how you build a team to compete in the cap world.

Also, we don't have a capable #1D.
Here is a tweet I saw the other day and it cannot be refuted.


*2017 Letang was out, but pens used the space for quality depth. also lets not pretend that Crosby/Malkin didn't lead from the front for the pens for their cup wins while getting help from the Leafs for that massive retention for Kessel.


Regarding Caps:
Caps added Oshie, Williams, etc. for their cup run and completely changed the way they play hockey under Trotz.

Regarding Blues;
They fired Yeo and Hired Berube in the middle of the season, Binnington went on a hot streak it is not comparable to the Leafs ffs. Blues also had two towers on the D line with Peitro and Parayko. They also had guys who werent afraid to mix it up like Perron, B. Schenn, Barbashev etc. besides the big names that people usually remember in ROR, Tarasenko etc.

Leafs team or situation doesn't resemble any of the caps or blues if you want to use them as comparables. Dubas ideas need to be purged from the Leafs forever!

 

[JKG33]

The Caps were perennial playoff chokers, got hot for 1 run, and then proceeded to continue choking as if nothing happened. Looking back their cup win is one of the more mind blowing cup wins we've ever seen.

The Blues did major surgery on their team prior to winning. They brought in two of their best forwards via trade (who also happened to be motherf***ers to play against), fired one of the worst coaches in hockey, and found the best goalie they've had in I don't even know how long.

The Caps are the almost the exception that proves the rule. Banking on these guys to "figure it out" like they did will almost surely lead to disappointment.

The Blues are replicable, but that would require major surgery. Fire the coach and bring in an old school guy to replace him. Bring in a couple tough to play against forwards who, and this is the important part, are in their prime. And a 1D that's better than Rielly.

Right now, nobody is scared of this core in the playoffs. They aren't hard to play against. They aren't shutting anyone down. They're easy to out-coach. The only thing that might change is Woll being the guy in net, but he can't change everything else too.

They've got a long way to go if they want to be a team like the Blues were.

 

[notbias]

OMG are we still pushing Dubas' crap? Come on people...

NJ is not a low / zero income tax and the Devils now have Hughes, Bratt, and Hischier at 7.25-8.0 AAV, and Hamilton at 9.0. The core four if you will at 32 AAV combined.

Timo Meier is probably going to sign around the same i.e. for arpproximately 40 million Devils will have 5 guys signed up long term for good chunk moving forward.

Leafs have 40 million in just 4 guys (Matthews, 11.6, Marne 11, Tavares, 11, Nylander 7) of which two are already up for renewal (matthews, nylander).

This is not how you build a team to compete in the cap world.

Also, we don't have a capable #1D.
Here is a tweet I saw the other day and it cannot be refuted.


*2017 Letang was out, but pens used the space for quality depth. also lets not pretend that Crosby/Malkin didn't lead from the front for the pens for their cup wins while getting help from the Leafs for that massive retention for Kessel.


Regarding Caps:
Caps added Oshie, Williams, etc. for their cup run and completely changed the way they play hockey under Trotz.

Regarding Blues;
They fired Yeo and Hired Berube in the middle of the season, Binnington went on a hot streak it is not comparable to the Leafs ffs. Blues also had two towers on the D line with Peitro and Parayko. They also had guys who werent afraid to mix it up like Perron, B. Schenn, Barbashev etc. besides the big names that people usually remember in ROR, Tarasenko etc.

Leafs team or situation doesn't resemble any of the caps or blues if you want to use them as comparables. Dubas ideas need to be purged from the Leafs forever!

Rielly plays like a top 10D every year in the playoffs.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

Letang is such an outlier on that list. Rielly can easily match the performance of Kris and arguably did these playoffs, tied for the lead for defensemen in even strength scoring despite not having played a game since early May.

 

[Leafshater67]

They also tweaked the teams and coaching staff multiple times and their stars showed up. Also, neither were in cap hell, paying non-factors 11m per year to disappear every year.

IT’s been almost a decade. The leafs are the most laughable contender of all time to date. They’ve been hilariously bad and choked absolutely every single opportunity they’ve ever had. There’s a very obvious core issue with this team that’s not comparable to either of those teams. The chance to be comparable has came and gone long ago and now they’re just a laughing stock in desperate need of some major moves.

The fact that no changes have been made is extremely frustrating. I hate this core 4 more than any rival team. They’re pathetic. Their new contracts will either make or break if I can cheer for this team again. I’ve been a life king leafs fan but their total refusal to fix this or hold anyone accountable is driving me nuts. It’s bad enough Dubas put the future of the team in the hands of selfish, greedy chokers but they still have Keefe around and haven’t made a major move and likely won’t.

Marner being moved would be like Christmas for me.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Who wants to rebuild?

The main complaint about this group is there is too much money locked into 4 players, who collectively have not elevated their game in the playoffs, and the leftover cap space isn't enough to surround them with the depth needed to win.

From what I've seen here the "blow it up crowd" I believe would generally be fine if just one of the 4 were moved and a big, dependable d-man along with solid depth up front brought in with the cap space saved.

Easier said than done, but I think most of us just want something done to shake up a core that is not working.

But there isn't to much money locked into 4 players.

Every team has a similar percentage locked into their top 4 players, and those that don't will once their ELC's expire looking at Buffalo here.

But take Florida for example 44% of their cap in 4 players.

Vegas is similar with 39 million between Eichel AP, Stone, Karlsson, and Marsh.

That's 5 players and nearly 50% of Vegas cap.

This idea that Toronto spends to much money on 4 or 5 guys is bullshit, and all you to do to prove it's bullshit is look at the 2 teams that just went to the finals.

They both spend about half their cap on 4 or 5 guys.

Everybody does.

 

[Dekes For Days]

They moved on from a 40 goal scorer in Semin and the highest scoring defenseman in the NHL Mike Green.

Not really. They chose not to re-sign a 20-goal Semin and not-even-in-the-top-15-in-defenseman-scoring Mike Green once they had declined from their previous offensive levels, still couldn't play a lick of defense, and hit UFA.

That's most similar to us moving on from JVR and Gardiner in UFA, not trading a Matthews or Marner.

Letang is such an outlier on that list. Rielly can easily match the performance of Kris and arguably did these playoffs, tied for the lead for defensemen in even strength scoring despite not having played a game since early May.

Rielly can and has matched the performance of a number of players on that list, but the funniest part is the tweet isn't even accurate. Letang was injured for the entire 2017 run. Pittsburgh's #1 defenseman was the legendary Brian Dumoulin, but I guess that wouldn't get the clicks.

 

[leafs in five]

The difference
Marner
Tavares
Matthews
Nylander

Ovie was one of the best players at the WJHC and battled against Sid. Auston Matthews played showcase hockey.

Tavares, Marner, Nylander had good WJCs

 

[horner]

They moved on from a 40 goal scorer in Semin and the highest scoring defenseman in the NHL Mike Green. Kuznetsov wasn't a star player until 15-16, 10 years after Ovi had been in the league. Wilson has only been a core piece the last five years. The Caps missed the playoffs entirely in 13-14, and were at that point a vastly different team than who they'd been five years prior.

We are going to hold on to some of our pieces, there is no real way that a full teardown is going to happen here. But moving on from some of these early Matthews era big names is inevitable and desirable. Trading Marner does not mean we're tearing it down to the studs.

The lesson from both the Caps and the Blues is that you need to be willing to move on from some of those big names, and that injections of new talent over the years are necessary to change the team's composition to finally win the cup. There is zero doubt that this Leafs team has enough talent to win. We all have eyeballs, we can see their talent and count their stats. But at the same time, this team doesn't click and the Caps didn't stick with Brooks Laich as their 2c for a decade. If we're going to be a threat for the next decade, we need to draft our Carlson, Kuznetsov, Orlov, and Wilson. Trade for our O'Rielly.

You need draft picks to find these players dubas all in last yr didn't help .

 

[613Leafer]

Remember how Green & Semin were core pieces Washington moved on from and Stastny, Backes & Shattenkirk were core pieces St. Louis moved on from?

These teams didn't just tinker around the edges - there were some big changes to the actual core of the teams, and capspace was re-allocated towards key guys like Oshie, Niskanen, B. Schenn, ROR, etc.

If you ranked the top 5 most important core pieces to the Leafs when Tavares came here, they would have been Matthews, Marner, Rielly, Tavares, and Nylander (in no particular order). If you ranked them during the first year we made the playoffs, it would have been the same group minus Tavares, and maybe add in Kadri. So in 7 years, we've made one change to the actual core of this team, and that sole change was 5 years ago.

 

[Enga Olly]

I liked it better when we didn't make the playoffs. Those great teams captained by Dion Phaneuf, Raycroft between the pipes - that was so much better. The brilliant hockey mind of Nonis ahh those were the days

 

[horner]

They moved on from a 40 goal scorer in Semin and the highest scoring defenseman in the NHL Mike Green. Kuznetsov wasn't a star player until 15-16, 10 years after Ovi had been in the league. Wilson has only been a core piece the last five years. The Caps missed the playoffs entirely in 13-14, and were at that point a vastly different

But there isn't to much money locked into 4 players.

Every team has a similar percentage locked into their top 4 players, and those that don't will once their ELC's expire looking at Buffalo here.

But take Florida for example 44% of their cap in 4 players.

Vegas is similar with 39 million between Eichel AP, Stone, Karlsson, and Marsh.

That's 5 players and nearly 50% of Vegas cap.

This idea that Toronto spends to much money on 4 or 5 guys is bullshit, and all you to do to prove it's bullshit is look at the 2 teams that just went to the finals.

They both spend about half their cap on 4 or 5 guys.

Everybody does.

team than who they'd been five years prior.

We are going to hold on to some of our pieces, there is no real way that a full teardown is going to happen here. But moving on from some of these early Matthews era big names is inevitable and desirable. Trading Marner does not mean we're tearing it down to the studs.

The lesson from both the Caps and the Blues is that you need to be willing to move on from some of those big names, and that injections of new talent over the years are necessary to change the team's composition to finally win the cup. There is zero doubt that this Leafs team has enough talent to win. We all have eyeballs, we can see their talent and count their stats. But at the same time, this team doesn't click and the Caps didn't stick with Brooks Laich as their 2c for a decade. If we're going to be a threat for the next decade, we need to draft our Carlson, Kuznetsov, Orlov, and Wilson. Trade for our O'Rielly.

You need draft picks to find these players dubas all in last yr didn't help

 

[horner]

But there isn't to much money locked into 4 players.

Every team has a similar percentage locked into their top 4 players, and those that don't will once their ELC's expire looking at Buffalo here.

But take Florida for example 44% of their cap in 4 players.

Vegas is similar with 39 million between Eichel AP, Stone, Karlsson, and Marsh.

That's 5 players and nearly 50% of Vegas cap.

This idea that Toronto spends to much money on 4 or 5 guys is bullshit, and all you to do to prove it's bullshit is look at the 2 teams that just went to the finals.

They both spend about half their cap on 4 or 5 guys.

Everybody does.

We have the same type of skilled soft players .
Vegas
AP, Stone and Marsh they give everything they have and won't be pushed around
They have leaders

Florida
Tkachuk need I say more
They have leaders
A goaltenders that finally showed up

 

[notbias]

We have the same type of skilled soft players .
Vegas
AP, Stone and Marsh they give everything they have and won't be pushed around
They have leaders

Florida
Tkachuk need I say more
They have leaders
A goaltenders that finally showed up

Yes, please tell us all about how good Tkachuk is, I want to hear more about it.

Especially in past years, I witnessed a good playoff from him this year, I want to hear about his past playoff heroics, he has a lot of games played.

 

[Dreakmur]

But there isn't to much money locked into 4 players.

Every team has a similar percentage locked into their top 4 players, and those that don't will once their ELC's expire looking at Buffalo here.

But take Florida for example 44% of their cap in 4 players.

Vegas is similar with 39 million between Eichel AP, Stone, Karlsson, and Marsh.

That's 5 players and nearly 50% of Vegas cap.

This idea that Toronto spends to much money on 4 or 5 guys is bullshit, and all you to do to prove it's bullshit is look at the 2 teams that just went to the finals.

They both spend about half their cap on 4 or 5 guys.

Everybody does.

Everybody doesn’t spend that much on l just 4 forwards and say screw defence and goaltending.

 

[leafs in five]

Everybody doesn’t spend that much on l just 4 forwards and say screw defence and goaltending.

I think most teams are probably at least considering saying screw goaltending.