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Rehashing Old Ground: Adams vs. Botterill vs. Murray vs. Regier...

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TM was a terrible GM. Everything he did turned to ash immediately.

Frankly he targeted three (four) key players to mentor his extremely young talents with documented substance issues. That’s a Toews level intangible. This isn’t rumor this is stuff that was in the news.

Even the RoR trade was made with no assurance he’d resign. Could you imagine this team now if he just walked?

Botts made many bad moves but some that worked out well. Samuelsson was a great value selection. Skinner is over paid but good (which is miles better than Moulson bad AND overpaid). Nylander for Joker.

I don’t want either back, but there’s a reason one is still in hockey.

PS if you’re a GM your office shouldn’t be Badda Bings.
 
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SnuggaRUDE said:
TM was a terrible GM. Everything he did turned to ash immediately.

Frankly he targeted three (four) key players to mentor his extremely young talents with documented substance issues. That’s a Toews level intangible. This isn’t rumor this is stuff that was in the news.

Even the RoR trade was made with no assurance he’d resign. Could you imagine this team now if he just walked?

Botts made many bad moves but some that worked out well. Samuelsson was a great value selection. Skinner is over paid but good (which is miles better than Moulson bad AND overpaid). Nylander for Joker.

I don’t want either back, but there’s a reason one is still in hockey.

PS if you’re a GM your office shouldn’t be Badda Bings.
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Tim Murray might be in the 5 worst gms of all time. Not sure why Lafontaine picked him at the time over Futa, Fenton, Nill, etc.
 
Seems to me the only reason for this debate is for the Adams haters to discredit Adams for the positive direction the team is currently headed.

To those of you in the hater boat, I just say, embrace the hope that is around this team.

Personally I didn't like the hire. I blasted him multiple times (Hall Trade. Anderson and Dell goalie solution. Quinn draft (Lundell was my guy, but would have been happier with Rossi at the time - oops). Responding to the Eichel comments through the media. His apparent disinterest to patch things up with Reinhart.)

But I have eaten substantial crow on some of my positions, and I am acknowledging the culture change he has brought, and the positive turn around under his management. The attitude of this franchise under Adams is night and day compared to what it was under TM or JB.

Ultimately, that is what is fueling the excitment. Guys want to be here. Adams is the architect of that. That is huge.
 
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Saw the thread title. Waited a couple days before opening. Still haven't read it.

It took me a few years to fully get over my divorce (all aspects and impacts). I no longer think about it. I only think about the joy with my current / 2nd wife and the future with her. All of the kids are better off too.

I feel the same way on the Sabres GM stuff, and the affected players. I just want to enjoy the present and future. Any Sabres players still remaining from prior regimes are also better off now, too. The only reason for me to rethink the past is if BUF ever needs to again "look for someone else" and seeks to avoid repeating prior mistakes. Hopefully, that won't be needed for many years.

The only hill I'll die on is that there is NO WAY Botterill should receive ANY credit for Tage Thompson. That's like giving William Seward credit for Alaska's oil riches. Those dots cannot be connected.
 
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Did the Sabres get anything in return for Ullmark? If not, why is that not a bigger issue for fans re: Adams? Ullmark is going to win the Vezina this year while goaltending is the Sabres #1 issue.
 
you look at the commentary surrounding Tim Murray when he left Buffalo about his personality and I don't think its a shock that he was good at identifying talent and terrible at identifying people

Ive been slowly backing off a lot of my opinions of the 2005-2020 GMing league wide. The NHL commercials this season aren't a joke, talent had bottomed out over that stretch and I think a lot of average GMs who would have had a fine time in the league and may have even been well regarded with 1 or 2 lucky pickups never got their feet because the draft was a shit show of talent that was never going to make it.

Personally, I think Darcy was the best at forcing value but to do that he often ended up last man holding the bag. Combined with the budget restrictions, shame. 1 of those perfectly average GMs that, under better circumstances, would have a championship. Murray was the best at assembling talent but his blind eye towards the person and a milk toast head coach doomed his teams. Botts did the unforgivable 3 times going Housley (pretty sure that was him), Krueger, and then alienating the top talent on the team in process. KA so far has picked up what he had is letting cook.

1) Darcy had hard mode and nearly won it all with 2 different teams. Best GM. Perfectly average with some upside. 2) Tim Murray built an on paper contender out of broken individuals and then never provided them with the leadership they needed to overcome their own issues. Lot of upside, never was able to translate it.
3) Kevin Adams hasn't really done anything yet except hire what at least looks to be a solid NHL coach. Something that hasn't happened since Lindy left. Lot of upside and appears there may be track to success.
4) Botterill also got hard mode, and was no where near ready for that meant. was shown a 2' deep puddle of human waste, got given a pair of crocs, and chose to swan dive.

pigpen65 said:
Did the Sabres get anything in return for Ullmark? If not, why is that not a bigger issue for fans re: Adams? Ullmark is going to win the Vezina this year while goaltending is the Sabres #1 issue.
Click to expand...
why would it be a bigger issue? he wanted Ullmark, knew he was good, and did everything he could to convince him to stay, in the face of a league wide shortage in goaltending

This is one of those questions where I go "what do you want to hear?" are you upset he didnt get anything for him? because Ullmark hadn't broken out at that point so he wasn't exactly a super hot commodity at the time, if youre upset he didn't resign him well you can't force someone to sign, he quite literally did everything he could to try and get him back.

if someone has something that shows KA turned down some great offer or that they lowballed the contract, but even around here no one wanted to pay him because lol goalies amirite, its a position as valuable as the supply

bigger issue is how Botts mismanaged the team so poorly that Adams couldn't get anyone to stay and basically had to start over
 
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Push Dr Tracksuit said:
you look at the commentary surrounding Tim Murray when he left Buffalo about his personality and I don't think its a shock that he was good at identifying talent and terrible at identifying people

Ive been slowly backing off a lot of my opinions of the 2005-2020 GMing league wide. The NHL commercials this season aren't a joke, talent had bottomed out over that stretch and I think a lot of average GMs who would have had a fine time in the league and may have even been well regarded with 1 or 2 lucky pickups never got their feet because the draft was a shit show of talent that was never going to make it.

Personally, I think Darcy was the best at forcing value but to do that he often ended up last man holding the bag. Combined with the budget restrictions, shame. 1 of those perfectly average GMs that, under better circumstances, would have a championship. Murray was the best at assembling talent but his blind eye towards the person and a milk toast head coach doomed his teams. Botts did the unforgivable 3 times going Housley (pretty sure that was him), Krueger, and then alienating the top talent on the team in process. KA so far has picked up what he had is letting cook.

1) Darcy had hard mode and nearly won it all with 2 different teams. Best GM. Perfectly average with some upside. 2) Tim Murray built an on paper contender out of broken individuals and then never provided them with the leadership they needed to overcome their own issues. Lot of upside, never was able to translate it.
3) Kevin Adams hasn't really done anything yet except hire what at least looks to be a solid NHL coach. Something that hasn't happened since Lindy left. Lot of upside and appears there may be track to success.
4) Botterill also got hard mode, and was no where near ready for that meant. was shown a 2' deep puddle of human waste, got given a pair of crocs, and chose to swan dive.


why would it be a bigger issue? he wanted Ullmark, knew he was good, and did everything he could to convince him to stay, in the face of a league wide shortage in goaltending

This is one of those questions where I go "what do you want to hear?" are you upset he didnt get anything for him? because Ullmark hadn't broken out at that point so he wasn't exactly a super hot commodity at the time, if youre upset he didn't resign him well you can't force someone to sign, he quite literally did everything he could to try and get him back.

if someone has something that shows KA turned down some great offer or that they lowballed the contract, but even around here no one wanted to pay him because lol goalies amirite, its a position as valuable as the supply

bigger issue is how Botts mismanaged the team so poorly that Adams couldn't get anyone to stay and basically had to start over
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Wait, so that I'm understanding correctly, it doesn't matter that Adams didn't resign the current league leading goaltender. It doesn't matter that he didn't get anything in return for the leagues leading goaltender. And it doesn't matter that he's completely failed to address the enormous need the Sabres have for a starting goaltender. All of that, in your opinion, is not important because he had to start over? Does that really make sense you? Forget the fact that it's completely delusional to say Adams had to start over when looking at the current roster that is packed with players he inherited, but he also inherited the leagues current leading goaltender. None of what you said makes any sense
 
Chainshot said:
There have been 2 GM's in the team's history that I have liked... and since one of those two was the first one, most of the 52 years has me anywhere from professionally disapproving to downright apoplectic, it's nice just to have the team winning.
Click to expand...

Maybe a dumb question, but was the other Meehan? As he was around during my tween years I don't remember the negatives, only the Lafontaine, Mogilny, Hawerchuk, Hasek moves.
 
pigpen65 said:
Did the Sabres get anything in return for Ullmark? If not, why is that not a bigger issue for fans re: Adams? Ullmark is going to win the Vezina this year while goaltending is the Sabres #1 issue.
Click to expand...
No the Sabres lost Ullmark to free agency.

I can't blame Adams for it though. They tried to retain him and he chose to go to Boston instead. I don't have a link handy but I think the Sabres offered the same or a little more money but Boston offered longer term. At that point, I would not have offered the contract Boston offered either. Ullmark was always hurt and while he had played well in stretches, hadn't really managed to stay consistent.

I wanted to keep Ullmark but he got an offer from Boston that was too good for him to pass up or for us to match (IMO).
 
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brian_griffin said:
Saw the thread title. Waited a couple days before opening. Still haven't read it.

It took me a few years to fully get over my divorce (all aspects and impacts). I no longer think about it. I only think about the joy with my current / 2nd wife and the future with her. All of the kids are better off too.

I feel the same way on the Sabres GM stuff, and the affected players. I just want to enjoy the present and future. Any Sabres players still remaining from prior regimes are also better off now, too. The only reason for me to rethink the past is if BUF ever needs to again "look for someone else" and seeks to avoid repeating prior mistakes. Hopefully, that won't be needed for many years.

The only hill I'll die on is that there is NO WAY Botterill should receive ANY credit for Tage Thompson. That's like giving William Seward credit for Alaska's oil riches. Those dots cannot be connected.
Click to expand...
the difference between a causal nexus and a proximate cause

pigpen65 said:
Wait, so that I'm understanding correctly, it doesn't matter that Adams didn't resign the current league leading goaltender. It doesn't matter that he didn't get anything in return for the leagues leading goaltender. And it doesn't matter that he's completely failed to address the enormous need the Sabres have for a starting goaltender. All of that, in your opinion, is not important because he had to start over? Does that really make sense you? Forget the fact that it's completely delusional to say Adams had to start over when looking at the current roster that is packed with players he inherited, but he also inherited the leagues current leading goaltender. None of what you said makes any sense
Click to expand...
classic hf its gotta be 1 thing and its gotta be 100% max to the extreme

subtlety and nuance this place does not
 
pigpen65 said:
Did the Sabres get anything in return for Ullmark? If not, why is that not a bigger issue for fans re: Adams? Ullmark is going to win the Vezina this year while goaltending is the Sabres #1 issue.
Click to expand...

I place zero blame on Adams for that. He was negotiating in good faith with Ullmark's camp all that season, into the offseason and into day 1 of that year's FA Frenzy. He was also injured around the deadline, negating any value he had.

Sabres want to re-sign goalie Linus Ullmark: ‘A priority for us’ - Buffalo Hockey Beat

The Sabres sorely need to re-sign goalie Linus Ullmark, who can become an unrestricted free agent following the season.
www.buffalohockeybeat.com www.buffalohockeybeat.com

Goalie Linus Ullmark looks strong in return, offers Sabres some hope - Buffalo Hockey Beat

It’s safe to say if goalie Linus Ullmark had remained healthy, the Sabres would’ve won at least a few times over the past month.
www.buffalohockeybeat.com www.buffalohockeybeat.com

Goaltending becomes concern again for Sabres - Buffalo Hockey Beat

Goalie Linus Ullmark has been the Sabres’ backbone this season, compiling a 9-6-3 record with a 2.63 goals-against average and a .917 save percentage.
www.buffalohockeybeat.com www.buffalohockeybeat.com
 
the original question asked why isnt it a bigger issue

theres a 5k post roster thread thats half about goaltending
a 600 post goaltending thread
its also brought up in around the nhl and former players threads
its brought up in every individual goaltenders thread
and brought up in basically every gameday/gbu
and thats just for the people that dont stray into the national boards

its not a bigger issue because even the most sympathetic KA fan can point to 20 things KA had control over before they need to start reaching for the linus ullmark card, and if you're trying to dumpster on KA there's 20 better arguments to do it with

what asset did you want back that would have been more valuable to the sabres goaltending then trying to get ullmark back? there just isnt an end point to this discussion that is more persuasive than any of a dozen other arguments about the goaltending situation, i can default the entire argument to you, you are absolutely 100% correct KA should have signed ullmark, and its gotten us no where because he was never given that opportunity by ullmark and he wasnt given an opportunity to improve goaltending by trading him because of the market and circumstance
 
TageGod said:
Darth Regier, using Jedi mind tricks to win trades.
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only when he was selling or it was a low profile/ below the radar trade

he sucked if he had to deadline buy or there was a bidding war.

he also sucked with Stafford and sfinaganov on when to sell them and for what. When they were hot he’d over ask.


1point21Gigawatts said:
I am surprised that anyone would have any kind words to say about Murray. Sure, he had a vision but he absolutely decimated our team's long term success to reach what was ultimately a bad vision. The only semi-positive thing i can say about murray is that he was mildly entertaining, but in a kind of sad way.
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Murray I respected. Like him or hate him he did have a plan for the team.

not everything was done that he wanted to do.

thr problrm was in the prospect and younger pool if players

the rebuild was the 2012-2015 drafts. Ehst about 08-912 drafts and what was in the system?

right now with Adana the rebuild in 2020-23 drafts. Look at what he already had from 2016-19 drafts and compare thst to the 2008-2012 drafts
SnuggaRUDE said:
TM was a terrible GM. Everything he did turned to ash immediately.

Frankly he targeted three (four) key players to mentor his extremely young talents with documented substance issues. That’s a Toews level intangible. This isn’t rumor this is stuff that was in the news.

Even the RoR trade was made with no assurance he’d resign. Could you imagine this team now if he just walked?

Botts made many bad moves but some that worked out well. Samuelsson was a great value selection. Skinner is over paid but good (which is miles better than Moulson bad AND overpaid). Nylander for Joker.

I don’t want either back, but there’s a reason one is still in hockey.

PS if you’re a GM your office shouldn’t be Badda Bings.
Click to expand...
FACT— he was very good friends with RORs agent. He knew before the trade he could resign him.
pigpen65 said:
Did the Sabres get anything in return for Ullmark? If not, why is that not a bigger issue for fans re: Adams? Ullmark is going to win the Vezina this year while goaltending is the Sabres #1 issue.
Click to expand...

Did they really want the term given his injury history? Ullmark is playing well on a good team
Push Dr Tracksuit said:
the difference between a causal nexus and a proximate cause


classic hf its gotta be 1 thing and its gotta be 100% max to the extreme

subtlety and nuance this place does not
Click to expand...
You are just realizing this….
 
Oh said:
Fenton had never been a GM at the time.. when he finally got the chance in Minnesota he was horrendous
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Same with Murray. Fenton at least had a better resume at the time with Nashville and building an NHL organizatioN.
 
SundherDome said:
Adams
Murray
Regier
The 10 month old cantaloupe left in the fridge
Botts

/Thread
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How in the world can you rank Murray ahead of Regier?

Regier had President trophy winner, 3 conference final teams, and a Stanley Cup finalist. All on limited resources and support.

Murray never had a winning season and hasn’t worked in the NHL since.

Botterill was even better than Murray

And Adam’s hasn’t done anything (especially on the back end and goaltending wise) to be ranked ahead of Regier yet. Hopefully he gets there though. He does have potential.
 
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