Rehashing Old Ground: Adams vs. Botterill vs. Murray vs. Regier...

[Chainshot]

So it seems it keeps creeping into other threads. This will have to suffice.

Since this topic has gotten hot more than once (and has been done more than once), mind yourselves. For now, I would say that they've finally undone the mistakes a variety of previous GM's made over the last decade and a half. They've moved away some of the poor drafting and rushed development of late stage Regier. They've recognized mercenary acquisitions don't build a team as was the key strategy of the Murray tenure. It seems like they've found a quality coach after years of some of the most horrendous hires in team history that marked the Botterill tenure. Adams' tenure has seen them go from the lowest of lows to some level of hope after arriving with doubts at his ability and autonomy.

No one individual dug the hole. No one individual has filled it back in.

Click to read more...

 

[TehDoak]

Me and all the Sabres GMs the past 30 years

 

[Dingo44]

1. Adams
2. Regier (though he did almost miracle work during a lot of bad times)

Ugh - I am not sure I can pick Murray or Botts three. I enjoyed listening to Murray much more than Botts so I'll pick him.

 

[Chainshot]

Me and all the Sabres GMs the past 30 years

There have been 2 GM's in the team's history that I have liked... and since one of those two was the first one, most of the 52 years has me anywhere from professionally disapproving to downright apoplectic, it's nice just to have the team winning.

 

[Beerz]

It's a situation where we're running around rainbows and unicorns slapping pee pees

 

[sabresfan129103]

I liked Regier. He always got good value in trades and put together some really good teams over the years. I can't believe he never got another shot as a GM in the league.

 

[WhereAreTheCookies]

I liked Regier. He always got good value in trades and put together some really good teams over the years. I can't believe he never got another shot as a GM in the league.

It's odd to me how well Regier did when he had his hands tied by an internal budget. Once the hard cap hit, and he was allowed to spend money it went downhill quickly. Lot's of terrible UFA signings and kneejerk reactions. The co-captain drama followed by the ridiculous Vanek offersheet probably didn't help matters or his legacy though.

He also drafted pretty well prior to the lockout. Afterwards his drafting really went downhill. Right around the time Devine went from pro scout to amateur scout then became the director of scouting.

 

[Chainshot]

I liked Regier. He always got good value in trades and put together some really good teams over the years. I can't believe he never got another shot as a GM in the league.

He was an assistant GM in Arizona when the league tried to mess with John Scott being named to the ASG. He was public in his criticism of the league and hasn't been back. Granted, he's also 66 so he may not want to deal with all of it either.

 

[Beerz]

I'm just going to come out and say it... despite the turdburgers .. I miss Ted Black.

 

[Chainshot]

It's odd to me how well Regier did when he had his hands tied by an internal budget. Once the hard cap hit, and he was allowed to spend money it went downhill quickly. Lot's of terrible UFA signings and kneejerk reactions. The co-captain drama followed by the ridiculous Vanek offersheet probably didn't help matters or his legacy though.

He also drafted pretty well prior to the lockout. Afterwards his drafting really went downhill. Right around the time Devine went from pro scout to amateur scout then became the director of scouting.

Two words - video scouting.

Darcy's early 2000's staff had a lot more eyes that have gone on to other team's draft tables: Jim Benning, Don Luce, Larry Carriere, Terry Martin. When the budget got tight, hockey people left and weren't replaced.

 

[WhereAreTheCookies]

Two words - video scouting.

Darcy's early 2000's staff had a lot more eyes that have gone on to other team's draft tables: Jim Benning, Don Luce, Larry Carriere, Terry Martin. When the budget got tight, hockey people left and weren't replaced.

That's right, I completely forgot that was when they shifted to the video scouting. What a terrible Idea.

 

[Chainshot]

That's right, I completely forgot that was when they shifted to the video scouting. What a terrible Idea.

It was terribly done but it's interesting to see how it has evolved now with things like InStat. It broke ground but their results were just terrible.

Then there was drafting for need - the beef draft of '09, the RHD drafting in '10...

Regier had plenty of fumbles over his tenure. The difference was they had two stretches of success sandwiched around the way he came on the scene with Quinn 1.0 and then how he left after probably overstaying his tenure.

 

[MOGlLNY]

Regier

Adams


Botts


Murray

Adams still has a whole different step to do though so I can’t put him on top and we will see. I do like Adams a lot so far though and think he’s a good leader for this franchise.

 

[Butt Ox]

Which of the candidates do I dislike less than ScottyB? All of them. That said, all of the mentioned are on par with Quinner firing Mucks. Been some bad hawkey for a very long time.

edit: kind of a dick move to knock Bowman post-passing. RIP.

 

[Beerz]

I'd go..

Regier - Built winner

Adams - on way to building winner

Murray- I believe he would have built a competitive team but probably not winner

Botterill- Built the depths of hell

 

[MOGlLNY]

Which of the candidates do I dislike less than ScottyB? All of them. That said, all of the mentioned are on par with Quinner firing Mucks. Been some bad hawkey for a very long time.

edit: kind of a dick move to knock Bowman post-passing. RIP.

Probably a joke I’m missing but Bowman is very much alive

 

[Butt Ox]

Probably a joke I’m missing but Bowman is very much alive

Oh shoot. Was that just wishful thinking on my part? I feel kind of bad now.

 

[Onslow]

I liked Regier. He always got good value in trades and put together some really good teams over the years. I can't believe he never got another shot as a GM in the league.

I can’t either.

The frustration of Do-nothing Darcy was outweighed by the brilliance of Always-Win-the-Trade Darcy. IMO anyways.

 

[TehDoak]

Regier: Wasn't a great GM. He probably had one of the best 3 year runs from when he was hired until the Hasek trade in 02. Grosek for Gilmour and Dumont. Mike Wilson for Rhett Warrener. Matt Barnaby for Stu Barnes. Just basically home runs every trade deadline, it felt like. And most of the overwhelming roster issues were covered by the trap era and having the greatest goalie of all time in an era that elite goalies were the starting QBs of the league. Starting with the Mike Peca situation though, his true colors came through. He was a yes man, plain and simple. Ownerships anger was his anger. He would be vindictive at Peca to the point it chased hasek off the team. Post Peca/Hasek, it seems other GMs got wise to his schtick and simply wouldn't work with him unless it was a very simple transaction (the infamous 2nd round pick for a rental deal he seemed to pull every deadline). I do think you have to give him a pass on the bankruptcy years as I don't know any GM who could resolve those issues. The 05-06 team was fantastic, but it was really was a confluence of events and its creation essentially led to the teams own demise. Having nearly every player on 1 year deals, having an off year two get two rookie classes in the NHL at once and get them a full year in the AHL (Miller, Roy Vanek), an extra year of development in Europe for Brian Campbell. The 1 year deals really bit them before 06-07 with Dumont and Grier walking for nothing, but our forward depth was great enough at that time to absorb it (though it was felt badly in the playoffs). The post Co Captains era/Pre Pegula era was a dark time where we were stuck in mediocrity and needed to address the center depth issue, but was constantly met with half measures (Hodgson/Ennis/Moore). He was limited by the ownership at the time, but at this point he appeared to be unable to work with other GMs in the league on a significant deal needed to reshape the team. They were able to get 2 playoff runs out of the Rochester core under the Pegulas, but the poor attempts at splashing money around (Leino, Ehrhoff, Regher) led to the start of his last duty as GM, the sell off, which, to his credit, he did well. Gaustaud, Vanek, Campbell, etc. When he was fired, the coffers were full for the Murray era...

 

[Chainshot]

Adams has grown on me which may have been due to not liking the initial hire. He's installed a well-regarded analytics and data department that seems like it has actual input. His scouting staff sing his praises. He's gotten a couple of long-term deals done, not the least of which is Thompson's extension. And he hired a coach - again at first glance that didn't look like he'd done much work - that has worked out wonderfully in terms of unlocking on-ice talent.

I hated Murray's obsession with physical specimens from when he scouted, the workout warriors who crushed the combine. He wanted a Kings' style heavy team, including a heavy defense, and just couldn't make it happen. He ignored his farm team criminally and burned through a stockpile of draft picks. Very little developed internally under him and there is a lot of evidence that toxic culture ruled the day. There wasn't a meathead Murray didn't seem to like and he too befell Pegs cash by bringing in Bylsma who was not a good coach after getting worked by Babcock.

I hated Botterill's coaching hires, especially considering he out-did himself in terms of harm by going from Phil to Ralph. His obsessive collecting of RHD at every level without finding working pairs, his inability to find consistent contributing depth, and his negotiating against himself in contract extensions were annoying as f***. Also bad was his constant bleeding of draft picks, the "most intelligent guy in the room" moments where he turned multiple picks into less and less, and did that over and over.

Regier had issues drafting at the end and some of that was definitely the hand of Quinn on daily operations, but he had built up habits that didn't mesh with having an unfettered budget upon the Pegula purchase. Yes, he won trades, but regularly wait inordinately long to make it so. He lost Hasek due to not getting Peca signed or Peca traded before the end of the season, then got pumped in the trade. That the league moved toward speed/skill/penalty enforcement coming out of the '05 lockout was happenstance that worked out in his favor. Years of unproductive early drafts in the mid-2000's laid the groundwork to having limited depth by the 2010's. He then shit-canned trying to take time to develop players by rushing Gus, Grigorenko, Zadorov and Risto into the bigs, possibly stunting all of 'em.

I want to see Adams build on his successes, even if that means pushing forward his plan. He's been patient, the new challenge is can he find a way to help fill his roster holes now to get even more out of the new-found offensive success of his current team.

 

[TheMistyStranger]

I fully expect Adams to be regarded as the best of this group when all is said and done

 

[Butt Ox]

I'll give Bighead a leg up for getting the right brother.

 

[Chainshot]

Which of the candidates do I dislike less than ScottyB? All of them. That said, all of the mentioned are on par with Quinner firing Mucks. Been some bad hawkey for a very long time.

edit: kind of a dick move to knock Bowman post-passing. RIP.

The Quinn 1.0 debacle - losing coach of the year and GM of the year to replace both with guys he thought he could have influence over after he spent time hobnobbing with Terry O'Reilly but instead stumbles into someone in Regier who was able to polish what he got from Mucks, then retool that to build the Co-caps teams as well as the hiring of arguably the most successful coach in franchise history in Ruff. It wasn't a given that a quiet Islander ass't GM who Torrey was grooming as a possible replacement would have the spine he had, for as much as I disliked some of Regier's foot-dragging, he got results. He dealt with multiple sets of dysfunctional owners, the team going into bankruptcy, and often being at the impact of monetary issues on the ice and in his operations.

That said, he should've been sacked the day Pegs took over.

 

[Butt Ox]

Adams has grown on me which may have been due to not liking the initial hire. He's installed a well-regarded analytics and data department that seems like it has actual input. His scouting staff sing his praises. He's gotten a couple of long-term deals done, not the least of which is Thompson's extension. And he hired a coach - again at first glance that didn't look like he'd done much work - that has worked out wonderfully in terms of unlocking on-ice talent.

Very much this. I can't recall ever tearing up while talking about an employer.

 

[Butt Ox]

The Quinn 1.0 debacle - losing coach of the year and GM of the year to replace both with guys he thought he could have influence over after he spent time hobnobbing with Terry O'Reilly but instead stumbles into someone in Regier who was able to polish what he got from Mucks, then retool that to build the Co-caps teams as well as the hiring of arguably the most successful coach in franchise history in Ruff. It wasn't a given that a quiet Islander ass't GM who Torrey was grooming as a possible replacement would have the spine he had, for as much as I disliked some of Regier's foot-dragging. He dealt with multiple sets of dysfunctional owners, the team going into bankruptcy, and often being at the impact of monetary issues on the ice and in his operations.

That said, he should've been sacked the day Pegs took over.

Darcy had to sit through Adelphia and HSBC. That's pretty rough.