Refs (again)

[Dr Beinfest]

I suggest you watch the hit again, the helmet falls off due to the whiplash, that was as clean as can get shoulder to shoulder. Not an inch of Tkachuk’s body touches Eichel’s face or head which can’t be said about Barbashev on Gudas.

I didn’t at any point say Tkachuk’s hit wasn’t clean. I said Eichel made Tkachuk’s hit way more explosive than it was going to be. Eichel’s helmet pops off because of Eichel’s actions, not Tkachuk’s.

It’s the same story with the Gudas hit. Gudas’ approach was wrong and unfortunately he basically ran his head into opposing resistance at a height above the ice where the resistance can’t be faulted. To make matters worse, he took that loading all on his neck and ultimately his head again on the ice. I take exception to people who are crediting Barbs for what is otherwise an extremely unfortunate situation.

Now, did Barbashev know what he was doing and allowed it to happen? To some extent I’m sure yes. He knew if he stopped the way he did he was going to find Gudas in a vulnerable position. The same can be said for Tkachuk’s hit… Tkachuk (legally) targeted Eichel for this open ice hit as Eichel wasn’t paying attention.

What I will also say though is that Tkachuk’s hit was much nicer and in terms of fundamentals and tact and didn’t actually end up with a shot to the head, which is something players should strive for even when it’s technically not their responsibility as in the Barbashev hit. Barbs should absolutely have done more to ensure the safety of his opponent in that case… whereas Eichel’s circumstance is more of a near freak accident what with him falling as the hit was about to be delivered.

 

[Panteras]

But there’s nothing Barbashev did that was “irresponsible”. He’s making contact on a guy with the puck. And the way he’s headed into the contact is perfectly legal.

The issue 100% arises because Gudas puts himself in a terrible position. I don’t like seeing guys get hurt, but when the problem arises from the player who is getting hit, the guy and the team throwing the hit don’t deserve to pay a price for it.

I literally said I had no issues with what barbashev did in my quote you quoted lol

Again, the point I’m trying to make is that if we agree that we have control over our bodies and hits and we know what’s coming and we also agree that sticks are a more volatile piece of the game to control (it’s just physics), then why do we penalize high sticks 100% of the time but not head hits 100% of the time? Unless it’s an obvious wind up fallow up incident contact, high sticks are called like always….but with head contacts it’s “ahh should’ve kept your head up”, “ahh should’ve braced yourself”, “ahh should’ve skated better” bla bla bla

I’ve seen a billion high stick calls where I just said to myself, well wtf was he suppose to do there? How could have controlled his stick any better there? Yet we penalize it….

 

[TheBeastCoast]

I literally said I had no issues with what barbashev did in my quote you quoted lol

Again, the point I’m trying to make is that if we agree that we have control over our bodies and hits and we know what’s coming and we also agree that sticks are a more volatile piece of the game to control (it’s just physics), then why do we penalize high sticks 100% of the time but not head hits 100% of the time? Unless it’s an obvious wind up fallow up incident contact, high sticks are called like always….but with head contacts it’s “ahh should’ve kept your head up”, “ahh should’ve braced yourself”, “ahh should’ve skated better” bla bla bla

I’ve seen a billion high stick calls where I just said to myself, well wtf was he suppose to do there? How could have controlled his stick any better there? Yet we penalize it….

Making any contact with the head a penalty would fundamentally change the way NHL hockey is played. Specifically playoff hockey. That is the difference between calling high sticking to a strict standard and not calling all head contact a penalty.

 

[axecrew]

Lol nice gaslight attempt

Not at all...can't complain that they are calling it now and that they are inconsistent when they've been inconsistent all playoffs...Live by the sword...Die by the sword

 

[Panteras]

Making any contact with the head a penalty would fundamentally change the way NHL hockey is played. Specifically playoff hockey. That is the difference between calling high sticking to a strict standard and not calling all head contact a penalty.

And your point is? You think NHL hockey has had the same rules it has today and hasn’t changed dramatically since the original 6? Being scared of change is not a valid argument to the points I’ve raised. And if this is the way it should be then so be it it, just that the NHL needs to stfu about concussions and protecting players and all that bs.

 

[HanSolo]

The Gudas hit was made worse as Gudas was crouched over and his head was at where his shoulder should of been. Had no issue with that hit. Unfortunately ending for Gudas.

I thought both Marchy penalties were weak, considering the hits before and after.
I get Tkachuk is a pest, but he gets knocked into Hill's net and gets slashed leaving the net with no call. I mean do you expect any player to take that? If the refs want to keep the game calm and send a message you have to call that.


That being said, Vegas is the better team in all phases.

Not an entirely accurate summary of what happened.

1. McNabb gives a typical crease-clearing level crosscheck to Tkachuk only towards Vegas' net and not away from it.

2. Tkachuk goes down into the net easy and tosses his stick.

3. Tkachuk's head immediately snaps towards the ref looking for the call he didn't get.

4. Tkachuk decides if he didn't draw a call, he'd try to knock Hill over by pushing his back into Hill's back legs.

5. Hill takes exception and gives Tkachuk a shove. Which isn't weird to see a goalie do that when a player tries to knock them over.

6. Tkachuk gets up and shoves Hill in the high chest area.

7. Hill shoves back and as Tkachuk skates away he gives him a whack for good measure.

If 6 doesn't happen, 7 doesn't happen.

The way people have dressed that play up the last 12 hours is like Tkachuk was victimized with the crosscheck and attacked by Hill for no reason. Hill isn't the first goalie to get physical with guys that invade the crease and bump goalies and he won't be the last.

 

[TheBeastCoast]

And your point is? You think NHL hockey has had the same rules it has today and hasn’t changed dramatically since the original 6? Being scared of change is not a valid argument to the points I’ve raised. And if this is the way it should be then so be it it, just that the NHL needs to stfu about concussions and protecting players and all that bs.

I just answered the why it is called differently. I am not justifying but that is just flat out why they aren't called the same lol. The NHL has never at any point cared about concussions or protecting the players. The only reason head shots started to get penalized more at all was because of the threat of litigation from former players with CTE.

 

[HanSolo]

And your point is? You think NHL hockey has had the same rules it has today and hasn’t changed dramatically since the original 6? Being scared of change is not a valid argument to the points I’ve raised. And if this is the way it should be then so be it it, just that the NHL needs to stfu about concussions and protecting players and all that bs.

It's not that black and white. If a player is targeting the head or doesn't make enough of an effort to avoid the head, that's what needs to be removed from the game.

Tkachuk's hit is a beautiful example of a situation where a player can and did adjust their angle to avoid head contact. Eichel was falling and his angle was dropping and Tkachuk still aimed his contact to go shoulder to shoulder.

With Gudas and Barbashev, the former was lining up to blow the puck carrying latter up with a low to high hit. Barbashev, looking right at him, wound up for a reverse hit which Gudas had plenty of time to see coming. As Barbashev was the puck carrier and Gudas was the player looking to engage physically, I'd argue the onus was on Gudas to change his angle instead of trying to play chicken and follow through with the low to high check. Barbashev wasn't being negligent and he wasn't targeting the head.

You say you have no problem with the hit but you still arrive at the absurdist conclusion that the league should just let there be a wild west on head hits. If Gudas was prepared to light Barbashev up on that play, he should have been prepared for the counter contact that Barbashev clearly telegraphed but he didn't. As much as I want the league to minimize concussions in this game, I can't find fault in what Barbashev did. He either goes through with the reverse hit or he lets Gudas tune him up. Can't fault Barbashev for Gudas playing it like an idiot.

 

[Beezeral]

1. McNabb gives a typical crease-clearing level crosscheck to Tkachuk only towards Vegas' net and not away from it.

2. Tkachuk goes down into the net easy and tosses his stick

You lose all credibility with 1 and 2. A cross check is a cross check.

2 tkachuk doesn’t go down easy. He’s cross checked from behind. Lmao at saying he tossed his stick.

 

[HanSolo]

You lose all credibility with 1 and 2. A cross check is a cross check.

2 tkachuk doesn’t go down easy. He’s cross checked from behind. Lmao at saying he tossed his stick.

Really? Because I was told by a swath of posters on this site to stop bitching about Stone getting repeatedly cross checked in the back right where he had back surgery because it's hockey and these guys are going to take competitive advantages.

So. McNabb was just fighting for a competitive advantage. Not a penalty.

And yeah, McNabb really didn't hit him that hard. If you want me to accept that Tkachuk didn't sell that, then my only logical conclusion is he has spaghetti legs. Which I know he doesn't. And it certainly doesn't help that the first thing he does is look to the ref to see if the arm was up before deciding to try to get even.

Either way, the fact that Tkachuk tried to knock Hill over and kept getting in his face is irrefutable. Hill didn't go after him for no reason.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

And your point is? You think NHL hockey has had the same rules it has today and hasn’t changed dramatically since the original 6? Being scared of change is not a valid argument to the points I’ve raised. And if this is the way it should be then so be it it, just that the NHL needs to stfu about concussions and protecting players and all that bs.

It sounds like you're saying that if they can't make players 100% safe from head contact, even from their own actions, the league shouldn't even try to do anything to try to make the game safer? Is that really what you're trying to argue here?

 

[axecrew]

Very accurate.
League is a joke.
The Finals should be the most watchable of all hockey, entertaining. Two games in the refs have made a point of the Panthers being a step behind.
Being that it's Vegas and the refs are calling 3 10 minute misconducts on the Panthers best player for basically retaliating.... can't help but have an uneasy feeling of favoring the gamble capital of the worlds team

Please explain to me what it was that Tkachuk was "retaliating "against when in game 1 Staal had Hague in a headlock and Tkachuk skated up and punched Hague in the face thus getting a 10 min misconduct?

 

[axecrew]

If you want to crack down head shots and concussion, call principle head contact a penalty. It’s as simple as that. Even if it’s an unintentional play because that is also the case with high sticking.

They do...but they also added a rule to the rulebook that says if you put yourself in a vulnerable position and get hit in the head there is no call because you altered your body position...same reason why a boarding call isn't made when a player goes to check another into the boards and the player getting hit turns his back at the last moment before getting lit up...

 

[stealth1]

As a neutral fan I do sympathize with Cats fans because Tkachuk plays a very Malkin-style game when it comes to agitating and that doesn't do either man favors when it comes to getting sympathy from the refs.

It is just one of those live by the sword/die by the sword aspects of hockey.

I agree with you there. The problem is that a lot of he does was let go in the first 3 rounds. No all of a sudden they decide to call it.

 

[CharasLazyWrister]

I literally said I had no issues with what barbashev did in my quote you quoted lol

Again, the point I’m trying to make is that if we agree that we have control over our bodies and hits and we know what’s coming and we also agree that sticks are a more volatile piece of the game to control (it’s just physics), then why do we penalize high sticks 100% of the time but not head hits 100% of the time? Unless it’s an obvious wind up fallow up incident contact, high sticks are called like always….but with head contacts it’s “ahh should’ve kept your head up”, “ahh should’ve braced yourself”, “ahh should’ve skated better” bla bla bla

I’ve seen a billion high stick calls where I just said to myself, well wtf was he suppose to do there? How could have controlled his stick any better there? Yet we penalize it….

I can’t do this anymore dude. It’s like you think there is some sort of cleverness to your stance when it’s just unrivaled ignorance.

There’s been so, so many points made by multiple posters that you are not even attempting to digest for the sake of pure foolishness.

I’m sure, given the insular, stubborn way you clearly choose to think, you will take this as some kind of concession to your “argument”. But what you are saying, and what you are implying completely defies common sense and logic. It is not possible to share ideas with someone in your headspace.

Enjoy the series.

 

[tarheelhockey]

As a neutral in this series, this all seems like a lot of whining TBH.

Both teams impose themselves physically, otherwise they wouldn't be in the Finals. In a matchup between two physical teams you're never going to get every call to go your way. Of course there are going to be some missed.

What we saw last night was a game where the score got out of hand early, and that creates a dangerous situation on the ice. The officials did exactly what people are constantly calling for -- they started tossing guys who took advantage of the scoreboard to take shots and stir up shit between whistles. Within seconds of the 4-0 goal they call two guys for roughing. Minutes later they tossed Carrier for the swing at Staal. They tossed two for 2+10 after the Tkachuk/Eichel hit, not for the hit but for the wild scrum that ensued. In the final 5 minutes alone they tossed 7 guys with misconducts, plus the AOO minor to EStaal.

That's all a matter of cleaning up the ice and keeping it from becoming a cage match. In between they called 5 minors -- including two cross-checkings and a roughing. Obviously those infractions need to be called, they're safety issues. Aside from missed calls (which again, are the nature of a game between two physical teams) the idea that there should have been more than eight power plays in this game strikes me as unusual, and it also strikes me as unusual that things like cross-checks and punches to the head should not be called when guys are on the verge of really hurting someone halfway through a 4-0 game.

Bottom line, the refs were not the story of this game. Both teams are living by the sword and the calls we saw last night were a natural outcome.

 

[Ms Maggie]

Not sure why all the ref talk after last night's game. LV was vastly the better team, full stop.

Not over yet.

 

[stealth1]

As a neutral in this series, this all seems like a lot of whining TBH.

Both teams impose themselves physically, otherwise they wouldn't be in the Finals. In a matchup between two physical teams you're never going to get every call to go your way. Of course there are going to be some missed.

What we saw last night was a game where the score got out of hand early, and that creates a dangerous situation on the ice. The officials did exactly what people are constantly calling for -- they started tossing guys who took advantage of the scoreboard to take shots and stir up shit between whistles. Within seconds of the 4-0 goal they call two guys for roughing. Minutes later they tossed Carrier for the swing at Staal. They tossed two for 2+10 after the Tkachuk/Eichel hit, not for the hit but for the wild scrum that ensued. In the final 5 minutes alone they tossed 7 guys with misconducts, plus the AOO minor to EStaal.

That's all a matter of cleaning up the ice and keeping it from becoming a cage match. In between they called 5 minors -- including two cross-checkings and a roughing. Obviously those infractions need to be called, they're safety issues. Aside from missed calls (which again, are the nature of a game between two physical teams) the idea that there should have been more than eight power plays in this game strikes me as unusual, and it also strikes me as unusual that things like cross-checks and punches to the head should not be called when guys are on the verge of really hurting someone halfway through a 4-0 game.

Bottom line, the refs were not the story of this game. Both teams are living by the sword and the calls we saw last night were a natural outcome.

Again a lot of what they called was stuff they let go in the first 3 rounds. If you're a Florida fan it's got to be frustrating to see the rough stuff that helped them win in the first 3 rounds be neutralized by changing how they call the game.

As far as the extra curricular activities, I may be in the minority but it's that kind of things that gives me vested interest. I love the scrums and emotions. It shows how much each teams hates each other. That's what playoffs is all about.

 

[HanSolo]

Not sure why all the ref talk after last night's game. LV was vastly the better team, full stop.

Not over yet.

Been ref talk since two minutes after first puck drop.

 

[CJV123]

For 30 years, I've seen pests "cross-checked" into goalies (less hard than a barber brushing clippings off the back of your shirt) and getting "slashed" by goalies across their skates they cannot feel, all of this by design to interfere with the goalie to help their team score and all of this being positively accounted for in the pests' paychecks.

 

[Panteras]

It sounds like you're saying that if they can't make players 100% safe from head contact, even from their own actions, the league shouldn't even try to do anything to try to make the game safer? Is that really what you're trying to argue here?

Huh? No that’s not what I’m saying at all.

All I’m saying is that if we’re to assume that all high sticks are a no no then why aren’t all head contacts? Why chose to penalize most high sticks when they’re clearly like 99.9 % of the time unintentional and also 99.9% of the time situations where it’s like, well, wtf was he suppose to do with his stick there? You can’t tell me that most high stick calls are simply unlucky unfortunate incidents…..yet we agree that hits are things that we have more control over…makes no sense

 

[stealth1]

Been ref talk since two minutes after first puck drop.

It has nothing to do with Vegas or Florida but more to do with the way they are calling the games. A lot of what worked for Florida in the first 3 rounds with being chippy is now all of a sudden being called penalties.

It feels like the league has decided to get the chippyness out of the game cause it's the finals. As a neutral fan it's sometimes hard to watch when the refs are so inconsistent game to game.

 

[Dr Beinfest]

Not at all...can't complain that they are calling it now and that they are inconsistent when they've been inconsistent all playoffs...Live by the sword...Die by the sword

That was 100% gaslighting. You effectively said “what you experienced wasn’t real and in reality you do not deserve to be here” and that’s total BS. No team outside of maybe the covid cups accidentally stumbled up the ladder to the finals by luck, give me a break. That’s as obnoxious as claiming the referees are all against you.

 

[axecrew]

Not an entirely accurate summary of what happened.

1. McNabb gives a typical crease-clearing level crosscheck to Tkachuk only towards Vegas' net and not away from it.

2. Tkachuk goes down into the net easy and tosses his stick.

3. Tkachuk's head immediately snaps towards the ref looking for the call he didn't get.

4. Tkachuk decides if he didn't draw a call, he'd try to knock Hill over by pushing his back into Hill's back legs.

5. Hill takes exception and gives Tkachuk a shove. Which isn't weird to see a goalie do that when a player tries to knock them over.

6. Tkachuk gets up and shoves Hill in the high chest area.

7. Hill shoves back and as Tkachuk skates away he gives him a whack for good measure.

If 6 doesn't happen, 7 doesn't happen.

The way people have dressed that play up the last 12 hours is like Tkachuk was victimized with the crosscheck and attacked by Hill for no reason. Hill isn't the first goalie to get physical with guys that invade the crease and bump goalies and he won't be the last.

Tkachuk wouldve hated to play when Billy Smith or Hextall played...

 

[Panteras]

You say you have no problem with the hit but you still arrive at the absurdist conclusion that the league should just let there be a wild west on head hits. If Gudas was prepared to light Barbashev up on that play, he should have been prepared for the counter contact that Barbashev clearly telegraphed but he didn't. As much as I want the league to minimize concussions in this game, I can't find fault in what Barbashev did. He either goes through with the reverse hit or he lets Gudas tune him up. Can't fault Barbashev for Gudas playing it like an idiot.

What? When did I said the league should let it be a Wild West on head hits? Did you mean NOT let it be a Wild West on head hits?

Dude, I’m merely trying to find the logic behind equally unintentional high stick calls that get called 100% of the time yet we don’t with head hits.

Example, Barbashev goes to poke check, stick bounces off something and hits Gudas in the face even though Gudas was being an idiot looking down right onto the path of the stick or something. Barbashev automatic 2 minutes. Barbashev obviously had zero intentions of hitting Gudas in the face and clearly had way less control in doing so than body checking him in the face like yesterday yet the high stick gets called and the hit doesn’t….