Reference - VsX comprehensive summary (1927 to 2023)

BenchBrawl

Registered User
Jul 26, 2010
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Hey @Hockey Outsider , when you have the time can you post the benchmarks for all systems in non-table format just so we can copy/paste them and calculate the year by year ourselves?
 

Hockey Outsider

Registered User
Jan 16, 2005
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Hey @Hockey Outsider , when you have the time can you post the benchmarks for all systems in non-table format just so we can copy/paste them and calculate the year by year ourselves?

The benchmarks for points, goals and assists are on the first page - let me know if those aren't easy to read. Here are the benchmarks for PPG:

Year PPG
1927 0.73
1928 0.89
1929 0.66
1930 1.48
1931 1.16
1932 1.09
1933 0.92
1934 0.92
1935 1.05
1936 0.89
1937 0.87
1938 0.92
1939 0.98
1940 1.08
1941 1.04
1942 1.15
1943 1.44
1944 1.90
1945 1.56
1946 1.20
1947 1.18
1948 1.00
1949 1.00
1950 1.00
1951 1.02
1952 0.99
1953 0.87
1954 0.89
1955 1.07
1956 1.13
1957 1.10
1958 1.20
1959 1.26
1960 1.20
1961 1.30
1962 1.20
1963 1.17
1964 1.24
1965 1.19
1966 1.15
1967 1.03
1968 1.15
1969 1.45
1970 1.13
1971 1.13
1972 1.36
1973 1.46
1974 1.14
1975 1.51
1976 1.56
1977 1.31
1978 1.46
1979 1.49
1980 1.48
1981 1.69
1982 1.84
1983 1.65
1984 1.51
1985 1.63
1986 1.78
1987 1.39
1988 1.64
1989 1.69
1990 1.60
1991 1.68
1992 1.64
1993 1.76
1994 1.51
1995 1.46
1996 1.58
1997 1.52
1998 1.26
1999 1.43
2000 1.35
2001 1.39
2002 1.17
2003 1.36
2004 1.15
2006 1.34
2007 1.39
2008 1.36
2009 1.38
2010 1.37
2011 1.27
2012 1.21
2013 1.25
2014 1.20
2015 1.08
2016 1.09
2017 1.19
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
 

DitchMarner

TheGlitchintheSwitch
Jul 21, 2017
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Brampton, ON
I have a question...

Is it possible that certain players who played during the time that Lemieux and Gretzky were dominating the scoring race are at a disadvantage? See my post about whether 1980s wingers were comparatively weak.

If whoever finished second in points between Gretzky and Lemieux is the player whose performance other players' VsX totals are being set relative to, then isn't there a disadvantage in cases such as Yzerman's 1989 season (when had had one of the highest scoring seasons ever by a player other than Gretzky and Lemieux but only finished third in scoring)?
 

Hockey Outsider

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Jan 16, 2005
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In theory, it shouldn't matter. See Sturminator's post explaining the method - http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/post-consolidation-vsx-benchmarks.1361409/

The system doesn't assign the #2 scorer as the benchmark in each year. That's the starting point, but it gets adjusted if the scoring race doesn't follow a normal distribution ("normal" meaning routine - not a reference to probability distribution).

For example in 1987, both Gretzky and Lemieux are treated as outliers and earn great scores (128 and 114 respectively). Savard, the highest scoring non-outlier, becomes the benchmark of 100. Then Dale Hawerchuk and everyone else are benchmarked against him. It would have been punitive to compare Savard etc against Lemieux, when he was an outlier.

1989 is a weird season. There are four players far ahead of anyone else. Based on Sturm's rules, the benchmark is 139 (a point total that no player achieved in real life). All four of the outliers (Lemieux, Gretky, Yzerman and Nicholls) earn scores over 100. The rest of the pack (led by Brown, Coffey and Mullen) get compared to the fictitious point total of 139, so their scores are slightly depressed. But I think this makes sense. If we treated 5th place Brown as the benchmark, we'd have four players with historically great seasons - that doesn't feel right. But treating 2nd place Gretzky as a benchmark doesn't make sense either - as Yzerman's excellent season would be underrated, as would everyone else after him.

The same thing happens in 1979 (this illustrates that the method cares about performance, not names - as obviously Gretzky and Lemieux didn't play this season). Trottier, Dionne, Lafleur and Bossy are way ahead of everyone else. They all get 100+ scores, and there's a big drop off towards 5th place.
 

Hockey Outsider

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Jan 16, 2005
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As a follow-up, here's the average score of the top ten scorers each year from 1980-2017:

1980 92.9
1981 87.9
1982 90.1
1983 96.0
1984 102.6
1985 92.7
1986 94.7
1987 101.8
1988 93.2
1989 94.2
1990 90.1
1991 100.6
1992 95.3
1993 91.4
1994 91.2
1995 86.6
1996 100.8
1997 90.0
1998 96.9
1999 92.2
2000 91.6
2001 102.1
2002 91.0
2003 91.9
2004 95.7
2006 99.1
2007 90.9
2008 90.7
2009 87.6
2010 89.4
2011 90.3
2012 89.6
2013 94.7
2014 96.6
2015 92.9
2016 93.5
2017 94.8
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

The average is 93.6. There's a slight skew in the data, but all of the years are within -8% to +10% of the average. As there's going to be some degree of natural variation in how the top scorers perform each year, that range doesn't seem unreasonable to me.
 

Hockey Outsider

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Jan 16, 2005
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The first twelve tables have been updated for 2018. If anything looks questionable, let me know - I've tried to automate this process as best I could, but it's certainly possible that there are errors.
  • Points, best seven years: the gainers in the top 100 were Staal (0.6), Tavares (2.1), Stamkos (5.5), Giroux (5.0), Kane (0.1) and Malkin (3.1).
  • Points, best ten years: the gainers in the top 100 were Kopitar (3.2), Staal (1.2), Getzlaf (0.1), Backstrom (2.4), Kane (1.1), Malkin (3.9), Ovechkin (0.6) and Crosby (1.9). Crosby now ranks 9th all-time based on his ten-year peak - with no extra credit for the years he lost due to injury.
  • Points, career: Crosby and Ovechkin both move into the top 40. They rank 12th and 13th all-time through a player's first thirteen seasons. H Sedin retires in 49th place, D Sedin in 59th. Staal, Malkin and Getzlaf climb into the top 100.
  • Goals, best seven years: the gainers in the top 100 were Seguin (4.7), Kessel (1.4), Staal (2.4), Tavares (2.0), Malkin (2.5), Stamkos (0.2) and Ovechkin (0.3).
  • Goals, best ten years: the gainers in the top 100 were Kane (1.0), Kessel (2.1), Staal (2.1), Malkin (3.0), Crosby (0.4), Stamkos (3.0), and Ovechkin (1.0). Ovechkin now has the 4th highest ten-year goal-scoring peak (prime?) in NHL history.
  • Goals, career: Ovechkin now ranks 11th all-time (one goal out of the top ten). He's also second to Bobby Hull in goals scored through a player's first thirteen years. Marleau climbs past 600 VsX goals, into the top thirty. Nash ends the season with exactly 500 VsX goals; Crosby is about a season away.
  • Assists, best seven years: the gainers in the top 100 were Kane (0.7), Giroux (3.2) and Crosby (0.4).
  • Assists, best ten years: the gainers in the top 100 were Kopitar (2.1), Zetterberg (0.6), Kane (0.8), Malkin (2.5), Getzlaf (0.2), Backstrom (2.0) and Crosby (1.2).
  • Assists, career: H Sedin retires tied for 23rd all-time. Crosby climbs into the top fifty. Getzlaf and Backstorm both surpass 700 VsX assists.
 

Black Gold Extractor

Registered User
May 4, 2010
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Hockey Outsider, for the assists benchmark in 1985-86, you averaged the 2nd through 5th players (to give a benchmark of 85) rather than the 1st through 6th (the normal "averaging" method described by Sturminator, which gives a benchmark of 95.33). Is it now the accepted method to ignore the first outlier or is it just unique because of Gretzky's insane 163 assists?

Thanks for your work!
 

Hockey Outsider

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Jan 16, 2005
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Hockey Outsider, for the assists benchmark in 1985-86, you averaged the 2nd through 5th players (to give a benchmark of 85) rather than the 1st through 6th (the normal "averaging" method described by Sturminator, which gives a benchmark of 95.33). Is it now the accepted method to ignore the first outlier or is it just unique because of Gretzky's insane 163 assists?

Thanks for your work!

Good catch. That was a completely subjective adjustment - I felt that Gretzky lapped the field so thoroughly in 1986 that it would have been too punitive to use the standard approach to calculate the benchmark. I know that I documented that somewhere, but I’m not sure if that survived the data migration from last fall.
 

DitchMarner

TheGlitchintheSwitch
Jul 21, 2017
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Brampton, ON
Stamkos looks like he's headed for HHOF if he can up his game in the playoffs and keep scoring at a high level in the regular season a while longer.

I'm surprised Giroux VsX 7 is THAT good. I know he's had three great seasons offensively, but I'm not sure how he has a score off 88 with three finishes in the top five in scoring and four in the top 10.
 
Last edited:

Black Gold Extractor

Registered User
May 4, 2010
3,092
4,967
Good catch. That was a completely subjective adjustment - I felt that Gretzky lapped the field so thoroughly in 1986 that it would have been too punitive to use the standard approach to calculate the benchmark. I know that I documented that somewhere, but I’m not sure if that survived the data migration from last fall.

That was a good call on your part. Personally, I feel that excluding the first outlier should probably be the norm. That way, it maintains consistency, and (for most cases) it doesn't really change the benchmark as much as one would think. For example, in 88-89, the points benchmark goes from 139 to 135. In 91-92, the benchmark goes from 116 to 115.
 

Hockey Outsider

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Jan 16, 2005
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As requested, here's VsX - points per game edition, 1927-2018, looking at three different time frames (sorted by the seven year category).

Players Five years Seven years Ten years
Wayne Gretzky 1.615 1.565 1.470
Mario Lemieux 1.432 1.390 1.290
Phil Esposito 1.396 1.312 1.179
Gordie Howe 1.292 1.219 1.146
Bobby Orr 1.334 1.215 -
Guy Lafleur 1.162 1.103 0.980
Jaromir Jagr 1.113 1.087 1.043
Sidney Crosby 1.120 1.087 1.049
Bobby Hull 1.110 1.076 1.040
Stan Mikita 1.094 1.067 1.032
Jean Beliveau 1.076 1.056 1.025
Ted Lindsay 1.096 1.047 0.965
Marcel Dionne 1.082 1.044 0.987
Syl Apps Sr 1.056 1.029 0.971
Bill Cowley 1.096 1.024 0.965
Bernie Geoffrion 1.054 1.012 0.957
Maurice Richard 1.023 1.006 0.981
Evgeni Malkin 1.029 1.004 0.970
Charlie Conacher 1.095 1.000 0.849
Howie Morenz 1.072 0.992 0.907
Mike Bossy 1.010 0.971 0.936
Alex Ovechkin 1.003 0.970 0.927
Andy Bathgate 0.997 0.963 0.912
Bryan Trottier 1.024 0.962 0.890
Eric Lindros 0.989 0.958 0.864
Joe Thornton 0.987 0.945 0.897
Steve Yzerman 1.003 0.942 0.895
Joe Sakic 0.962 0.940 0.904
Busher Jackson 1.016 0.933 0.823
Elmer Lach 0.957 0.929 0.878
Jari Kurri 0.998 0.929 0.852
Peter Forsberg 0.949 0.927 0.873
Paul Coffey 0.953 0.926 0.870
Bill Cook 0.987 0.923 0.814
Jean Ratelle 0.960 0.922 0.878
Max Bentley 0.990 0.921 0.836
Peter Stastny 0.945 0.920 0.858
Patrick Kane 0.972 0.918 0.840
Sweeney Schriner 0.979 0.917 0.843
Frank Boucher 0.935 0.911 0.848
Bobby Clarke 0.945 0.907 0.833
Doug Bentley 0.942 0.906 0.828
Norm Ullman 0.960 0.906 0.856
Frank Mahovlich 0.931 0.905 0.863
Mark Messier 0.934 0.904 0.868
Teemu Selanne 0.921 0.901 0.866
Gordie Drillon 0.974 0.898 -
John Bucyk 0.932 0.895 0.862
Nels Stewart 0.918 0.891 0.864
Martin St. Louis 0.936 0.889 0.831
Adam Oates 0.937 0.887 0.841
Denis Savard 0.913 0.885 0.838
Darryl Sittler 0.926 0.883 0.817
Milt Schmidt 0.906 0.879 0.827
Marty Barry 0.924 0.877 0.791
Gilbert Perreault 0.890 0.872 0.835
Henri Richard 0.899 0.871 0.837
Ron Francis 0.892 0.868 0.831
Steven Stamkos 0.898 0.867 -
Ken Hodge 0.949 0.865 0.782
Ryan Getzlaf 0.882 0.864 0.834
Pavel Datsyuk 0.875 0.858 0.833
Rod Gilbert 0.890 0.857 0.819
Toe Blake 0.881 0.856 0.816
Roy Conacher 0.888 0.855 -
Nicklas Backstrom 0.878 0.854 0.808
Claude Giroux 0.890 0.853 0.758
Daniel Alfredsson 0.884 0.852 0.810
Yvan Cournoyer 0.880 0.850 0.789
Dale Hawerchuk 0.889 0.849 0.804
Brett Hull 0.891 0.848 0.807
Pierre Turgeon 0.890 0.848 0.807
Ilya Kovalchuk 0.883 0.847 0.787
Sid Abel 0.904 0.846 0.768
Alex Delvecchio 0.861 0.846 0.826
Jason Spezza 0.887 0.844 0.793
Jarome Iginla 0.889 0.843 0.790
Dickie Moore 0.928 0.842 0.741
Pavel Bure 0.882 0.833 -
John Tavares 0.862 0.830 -
Henrik Zetterberg 0.845 0.827 0.784
Bernie Nicholls 0.868 0.826 0.777
Pat LaFontaine 0.874 0.826 0.755
Ted Kennedy 0.867 0.823 0.773
Paul Thompson 0.887 0.823 0.704
Michel Goulet 0.886 0.823 0.741
Daniel Sedin 0.869 0.819 0.771
Henrik Sedin 0.858 0.818 0.778
Paul Kariya 0.852 0.818 0.763
Bernie Federko 0.842 0.815 0.775
Alexander Mogilny 0.838 0.814 0.778
Mark Recchi 0.833 0.814 0.776
Jamie Benn 0.857 0.814 -
Jacques Lemaire 0.829 0.810 0.761
Kent Nilsson 0.826 0.807 -
Phil Goyette 0.850 0.804 0.726
Dave Taylor 0.839 0.803 0.742
Ziggy Palffy 0.824 0.803 0.742
Dany Heatley 0.858 0.802 0.730
Doug Gilmour 0.834 0.802 0.764
Luc Robitaille 0.814 0.801 0.775
Hooley Smith 0.867 0.798 0.708
Herbie Lewis 0.841 0.798 0.685
Mike Modano 0.820 0.796 0.768
Mats Sundin 0.811 0.793 0.770
Marian Hossa 0.828 0.793 0.764
Pavol Demitra 0.806 0.791 0.745
Aurel Joliat 0.849 0.791 0.722
Lynn Patrick 0.869 0.790 0.687
Theoren Fleury 0.820 0.790 0.745
Sergei Fedorov 0.826 0.789 0.752
Syd Howe 0.811 0.786 0.752
Taylor Hall 0.834 0.785 -
Marc Savard 0.843 0.784 0.706
Keith Tkachuk 0.805 0.783 0.758
Markus Naslund 0.861 0.780 0.694
Tyler Seguin 0.848 0.777 -
Phil Kessel 0.816 0.776 0.728
Red Kelly 0.801 0.775 0.726
Eric Staal 0.802 0.774 0.740
Anze Kopitar 0.796 0.774 0.744
Rick Martin 0.816 0.771 -
Bert Olmstead 0.800 0.769 0.714
Patrik Elias 0.796 0.768 0.727
Raymond Bourque 0.798 0.767 0.726
Cecil Dillon 0.797 0.766 0.681
Bryan Hextall 0.842 0.763 0.685
Joe Primeau 0.910 0.763 -
Marian Gaborik 0.796 0.763 0.719
John LeClair 0.800 0.763 0.681
Brad Richards 0.803 0.760 0.721
Jeremy Roenick 0.778 0.759 0.731
Pete Mahovlich 0.803 0.759 0.711
Phil Watson 0.796 0.756 0.694
Rick Middleton 0.789 0.754 0.699
Dave Keon 0.782 0.754 0.721
Denis Potvin 0.803 0.752 0.706
Bill Mosienko 0.781 0.751 0.716
Vincent Lecavalier 0.782 0.751 0.715
Bobby Rousseau 0.799 0.751 0.692
Brendan Shanahan 0.773 0.750 0.724
Blake Wheeler 0.781 0.750 0.642
Corey Perry 0.784 0.750 0.698
Lanny McDonald 0.784 0.749 0.706
Rene Robert 0.785 0.749 0.686
Cooney Weiland 0.800 0.749 0.667
Jonathan Toews 0.772 0.743 0.709
Clint Smith 0.799 0.742 0.664
Alex Kovalev 0.801 0.741 0.685
Rick MacLeish 0.795 0.739 0.676
Johnny Gottselig 0.766 0.738 0.694
Charlie Simmer 0.786 0.737 -
Bobby Bauer 0.801 0.737 -
Erik Karlsson 0.797 0.736 -
Doug Weight 0.752 0.736 0.709
Alex Tanguay 0.772 0.734 0.696
Lorne Carr 0.777 0.733 0.674
Glenn Anderson 0.772 0.733 0.687
Don McKenney 0.757 0.732 0.669
Tim Kerr 0.808 0.732 -
Dino Ciccarelli 0.770 0.732 0.689
Joe Nieuwendyk 0.753 0.729 0.696
Joe Pavelski 0.776 0.729 0.673
Joe Mullen 0.753 0.729 0.692
Alex Zhamnov 0.776 0.727 0.676
Mike Ribeiro 0.744 0.727 0.678
Pierre Larouche 0.776 0.726 0.675
Tod Sloan 0.776 0.725 0.634
Bun Cook 0.742 0.725 0.689
Zach Parise 0.749 0.724 0.672
Brad Park 0.745 0.724 0.677
Ray Whitney 0.741 0.724 0.704
Larry Aurie 0.846 0.722 0.613
Pit Martin 0.782 0.721 0.668
Eddie Wiseman 0.755 0.720 0.623
Alexei Yashin 0.746 0.718 0.685
Brian Propp 0.759 0.718 0.678
Rick Nash 0.750 0.716 0.679
Cam Neely 0.763 0.716 0.635
Alexander Semin 0.777 0.715 0.632
Steve Shutt 0.775 0.714 0.645
Buddy O'Connor 0.776 0.714 0.641
Dennis Maruk 0.761 0.713 0.653
Patrick Marleau 0.733 0.712 0.678
Bobby Smith 0.753 0.712 0.679
Camille Henry 0.733 0.708 0.649
Jakub Voracek 0.760 0.707 0.620
Bill Thoms 0.776 0.707 0.637
Woody Dumart 0.745 0.706 0.663
Dit Clapper 0.739 0.706 0.664
Peter Bondra 0.742 0.705 0.660
Red Berenson 0.769 0.704 0.609
Milan Hejduk 0.734 0.704 0.663
Kevin Stevens 0.773 0.702 0.604
Syl Apps 0.772 0.702 0.603
Thomas Vanek 0.734 0.701 0.663
Johnny Gagnon 0.766 0.700 0.591
Vincent Damphousse 0.720 0.700 0.674
Fred Stanfield 0.758 0.700 0.609
Wayne Cashman 0.754 0.698 0.655
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
 

VanIslander

20 years of All-Time Drafts on HfBoards
Sep 4, 2004
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As requested, here's VsX - points per game edition, 1927-2018, looking at three different time frames (sorted by the seven year category).
Abel and Delvecchio dead equal over the 7-year stretch! :biglaugh: As usual, they seem so equivalent.
Syl Apps Sr. and Bill Cowley ahead of the Rocket and Boom Boom? :amazed: Wow.
Conacher ahead of Morenz, Lach ahead of Forsberg, Ullman ahead of Messier, Gilbert ahead of Blake, Lewis ahead of Joliat, ... :snide: Love it.
Bourque the top defenseman even though he played injured more often than not (unless Red Kelly's numbers are from his defenseman earlier days), then Potvin, Karlsson and Park.
 
Last edited:

Dingo

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Jul 13, 2018
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Do you have a program in order to run numbers, or is it a painstaking process? Im asking because Ive always wanted to see this in a five, or even three year format...
 

Hockey Outsider

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Jan 16, 2005
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Do you have a program in order to run numbers, or is it a painstaking process? Im asking because Ive always wanted to see this in a five, or even three year format...

It's almost entirely automated. It's tricky to do set it up properly for consecutive seasons, but if you just want to see top 3 or top 5 years for points, that shouldn't take more than 10-15 minutes to generate.
 

Dingo

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Jul 13, 2018
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It's almost entirely automated. It's tricky to do set it up properly for consecutive seasons, but if you just want to see top 3 or top 5 years for points, that shouldn't take more than 10-15 minutes to generate.
i wasnt looking for consecutive. It would be great to see top 5 years.
 

streitz

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Jul 22, 2018
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There's a lot of effort put into this thread, still not as important as the eye test though.
 

Hockey Outsider

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There's a lot of effort put into this thread, still not as important as the eye test though.

For the record I've had this set up for 6-7 years (maybe longer - it all starts to blur together after a while). It takes me no more than an hour to update this entire thread once per year.
 
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Hockey Outsider

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i wasnt looking for consecutive. It would be great to see top 5 years.

Ask and ye shall receive (top five years, non consecutive):

1Wayne Gretzky 160.7
2Phil Esposito 138.6
3Gordie Howe 131.8
4Bobby Orr 129.4
5Mario Lemieux 126.1
6Jaromir Jagr 119.4
7Guy Lafleur 114.4
8Stan Mikita 112.2
9Bobby Hull 111.6
10Howie Morenz 111.1
11Marcel Dionne 108.7
12Jean Beliveau 108.5
13Ted Lindsay 108.3
14Charlie Conacher 106.6
15Sidney Crosby 104.6
16Maurice Richard 104.5
17Bill Cowley 103.6
18Bill Cook 103.2
19Andy Bathgate 103.2
20Joe Sakic 101.5
21Alex Ovechkin 100.8
22Joe Thornton 99.5
23Max Bentley 99.4
24Bryan Trottier 99.0
25Evgeni Malkin 98.8
26Syl Apps Sr 98.6
27Mike Bossy 97.9
28Martin St. Louis 97.8
29Frank Boucher 97.8
30Sweeney Schriner 97.5
31Steve Yzerman 97.0
32Peter Forsberg 96.4
33Bobby Clarke 95.4
34Busher Jackson 95.4
35Patrick Kane 95.1
36Teemu Selanne 95.0
37Norm Ullman 94.5
38Bernie Geoffrion 94.3
39Milt Schmidt 94.2
40Jari Kurri 94.0
41Nels Stewart 93.4
42Marty Barry 93.4
43Dickie Moore 93.2
44Gordie Drillon 92.9
45John Bucyk 92.9
46Peter Stastny 92.8
47Claude Giroux 92.8
48Steven Stamkos 92.7
49Doug Bentley 92.6
50Mark Messier 92.3
51Adam Oates 92.3
52Jean Ratelle 92.2
53Ken Hodge 92.1
54Pavel Bure 92.1
55Sid Abel 92.0
56Brett Hull 91.7
57Elmer Lach 91.5
58Bryan Hextall 91.2
59Paul Coffey 91.2
60Nicklas Backstrom 91.0
61Mark Recchi 90.8
62Jarome Iginla 90.5
63Darryl Sittler 90.2
64Henri Richard 90.2
65Ron Francis 90.1
66Dale Hawerchuk 90.0
67Markus Naslund 89.8
68Frank Mahovlich 89.8
69Jamie Benn 89.4
70Paul Kariya 89.4
71Aurel Joliat 89.1
72Henrik Sedin 89.0
73Eric Lindros 88.9
74Paul Thompson 88.9
75Syd Howe 88.9
76Denis Savard 88.7
77Toe Blake 88.6
78Ilya Kovalchuk 88.6
79Gilbert Perreault 88.2
80Roy Conacher 87.9
81Joe Primeau 87.8
82Phil Kessel 87.3
83Alex Delvecchio 86.8
84Luc Robitaille 86.4
85Ryan Getzlaf 86.4
86John LeClair 86.3
87Cooney Weiland 85.8
88Doug Gilmour 85.7
89Daniel Alfredsson 85.7
90Rod Gilbert 85.6
91Lynn Patrick 85.6
92Hooley Smith 85.5
93Michel Goulet 85.5
94Dany Heatley 85.5
95John Tavares 85.4
96Marian Hossa 85.3
97Theoren Fleury 85.2
98Pavel Datsyuk 85.2
99Tyler Seguin 85.1
100Ziggy Palffy 85.0
101Bernie Nicholls 84.5
102Bobby Bauer 84.4
103Jeremy Roenick 84.4
104Patrik Elias 84.2
105Mats Sundin 84.1
106Daniel Sedin 83.9
107Sergei Fedorov 83.8
108Pierre Turgeon 83.7
109Mike Modano 83.7
110Phil Watson 83.3
111Eric Staal 83.2
112Erik Karlsson 82.8
113Larry Aurie 82.4
114Neil Colville 82.4
115Ted Kennedy 82.4
116Pat LaFontaine 82.3
117Blake Wheeler 82.2
118Brendan Shanahan 82.2
119Alexei Yashin 82.2
120Jason Spezza 82.1
121Alexander Mogilny 82.0
122Doug Weight 81.8
123Brad Richards 81.8
124Henrik Zetterberg 81.7
125Keith Tkachuk 81.6
126Cecil Dillon 81.5
127Bert Olmstead 81.4
128Alex Kovalev 81.4
129Bobby Rousseau 81.3
130Anze Kopitar 81.3
131Phil Goyette 81.3
132Ace Bailey 81.2
133Pavol Demitra 81.1
134Clint Smith 81.1
135Herbie Lewis 80.9
136Jacques Lemaire 80.9
137Vincent Lecavalier 80.7
138Taylor Hall 80.7
139Joe Pavelski 80.6
140Rick MacLeish 80.5
141Bernie Federko 80.5
142Paul Ronty 80.5
143Denis Potvin 80.4
144Billy Taylor 80.3
145Milan Hejduk 80.1
146Jason Allison 80.0
147Kent Nilsson 79.7
148Corey Perry 79.6
149Jakub Voracek 79.6
150Bill Thoms 79.6
151Marc Savard 79.4
152Pete Mahovlich 79.2
153Lanny McDonald 79.2
154Yvan Cournoyer 78.9
155Raymond Bourque 78.9
156Bun Cook 78.9
157Lorne Carr 78.7
158Tod Sloan 78.5
159Rick Middleton 78.4
160Don McKenney 78.2
161Bill Mosienko 78.2
162Dit Clapper 78.0
163Red Kelly 77.9
164Brian Leetch 77.8
165Ed Litzenberger 77.4
166Johnny Gottselig 77.4
167Steve Shutt 77.3
168Kenny Wharram 77.1
169Woody Dumart 77.1
170Alex Tanguay 77.1
171Peter Bondra 77.0
172Tony Amonte 76.7
173Kevin Stevens 76.7
174Rick Martin 76.7
175Mike Ribeiro 76.6
176Syl Apps 76.3
177Dennis Maruk 76.3
178Baldy Northcott 76.2
179Jonathan Toews 76.2
180Todd Bertuzzi 76.2
181Dave Keon 76.1
182Patrick Marleau 76.0
183Vincent Damphousse 75.9
184Eddie Wiseman 75.9
185Johnny Gagnon 75.8
186Gaye Stewart 75.6
187Dave Taylor 75.5
188Glenn Anderson 75.4
189Paul Haynes 75.4
190Rene Robert 75.3
191Steve Larmer 75.2
192Rod Brind'Amour 75.1
193Fred Stanfield 75.1
194Pit Martin 74.9
195Ebbie Goodfellow 74.8
196Joe Mullen 74.6
197Marian Gaborik 74.5
198Martin Straka 74.5
199Ray Whitney 74.4
200Brad Marchand 74.3
201Art Chapman 74.3
202Zach Parise 74.1
203Barry Pederson 73.9
204Wayne Cashman 73.7
205Glen Murray 73.6
206Robert Lang 73.6
207Bill Barber 73.6
208Charlie Simmer 73.4
209Jimmy Ward 73.3
210Vladimir Tarasenko 73.3
211Walt Tkaczuk 73.2
212Scott Gomez 73.2
213Joe Nieuwendyk 73.0
214Craig Janney 73.0
215Al MacInnis 72.9
216Garry Unger 72.9
217Dino Ciccarelli 72.8
218Nikita Kucherov 72.6
219Red Berenson 72.5
220Max Pacioretty 72.5
221Sid Smith 72.4
222Steve Sullivan 72.4
223Dave Andreychuk 72.3
224John McKenzie 72.2
225Thomas Vanek 72.1
226Olli Jokinen 72.1
227Tim Kerr 72.1
228Brent Burns 72.1
229Jeff Carter 71.8
230Nicklas Lidstrom 71.7
231Buddy O'Connor 71.7
232Dennis Hull 71.7
233Rick Nash 71.6
234Camille Henry 71.5
235Petr Nedved 71.4
236Greg Adams 71.3
237Bobby Smith 71.3
238Butch Goring 71.3
239Pierre Larouche 71.0
240Claude Provost 71.0
241Patrick Sharp 71.0
242Herb Cain 70.9
243Miroslav Satan 70.9
244Matt Duchene 70.8
245Wilf Paiement 70.8
246Owen Nolan 70.7
247Mike Gartner 70.6
248Tom Anderson 70.3
249Peter McNab 70.3
250Mickey Redmond 70.2
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
 
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Black Gold Extractor

Registered User
May 4, 2010
3,092
4,967
Looking at the 5-year point-per-game VsX, I just noticed that the gap between Bobby Orr and Guy Lafleur is bigger than the gap between Mario Lemieux and Bobby Orr. Orr is also ahead of Gordie Howe over the 5-year VsX, despite Howe's insane 4-year peak.

Orr was also good defensively.

That's obscene.

EDIT: Holy crap, Orr's also ahead of Lemieux in 5-year VsX in raw points?!
 

Hockey Outsider

Registered User
Jan 16, 2005
9,429
15,566
Looking at the 5-year point-per-game VsX, I just noticed that the gap between Bobby Orr and Guy Lafleur is bigger than the gap between Mario Lemieux and Bobby Orr. Orr is also ahead of Gordie Howe over the 5-year VsX, despite Howe's insane 4-year peak.

Orr was also good defensively.

That's obscene.

EDIT: Holy crap, Orr's also ahead of Lemieux in 5-year VsX in raw points?!

It's pretty crazy when you think about it. The main reason is Orr missed very little time during that historical run from 1970 to 1975 (aside from 1973, he only missed six games in those other five years).

On the other hand, as we all know, Lemieux missed a lot of time during his best seasons. 1993 falls to 6th place - it was an extraordinarily impressive year, but he missed too much time during a very high-scoring season to have this year count as one of his top five. He missed thirty games in 1992 and 1996 alone (and then a few more in each of 1988, 1989 and 1997).

I have no doubt that Lemieux was better offensively than Orr on a per-game basis. But if you look at things on a per-season basis, I think it's reasonable to say that Orr had the better peak and short (3-5 year) prime because he was, thankfully, pretty healthy during that stretch.
 

Dingo

Registered User
Jul 13, 2018
1,915
1,904
Ask and ye shall receive (top five years, non consecutive):

1Wayne Gretzky 160.7
2Phil Esposito 138.6
3Gordie Howe 131.8
4Bobby Orr 129.4
5Mario Lemieux 126.1
6Jaromir Jagr 119.4
7Guy Lafleur 114.4
8Stan Mikita 112.2
9Bobby Hull 111.6
10Howie Morenz 111.1
11Marcel Dionne 108.7
12Jean Beliveau 108.5
13Ted Lindsay 108.3
14Charlie Conacher 106.6
15Sidney Crosby 104.6
16Maurice Richard 104.5
17Bill Cowley 103.6
18Bill Cook 103.2
19Andy Bathgate 103.2
20Joe Sakic 101.5
21Alex Ovechkin 100.8
22Joe Thornton 99.5
23Max Bentley 99.4
24Bryan Trottier 99.0
25Evgeni Malkin 98.8
26Syl Apps Sr 98.6
27Mike Bossy 97.9
28Martin St. Louis 97.8
29Frank Boucher 97.8
30Sweeney Schriner 97.5
31Steve Yzerman 97.0
32Peter Forsberg 96.4
33Bobby Clarke 95.4
34Busher Jackson 95.4
35Patrick Kane 95.1
36Teemu Selanne 95.0
37Norm Ullman 94.5
38Bernie Geoffrion 94.3
39Milt Schmidt 94.2
40Jari Kurri 94.0
41Nels Stewart 93.4
42Marty Barry 93.4
43Dickie Moore 93.2
44Gordie Drillon 92.9
45John Bucyk 92.9
46Peter Stastny 92.8
47Claude Giroux 92.8
48Steven Stamkos 92.7
49Doug Bentley 92.6
50Mark Messier 92.3
51Adam Oates 92.3
52Jean Ratelle 92.2
53Ken Hodge 92.1
54Pavel Bure 92.1
55Sid Abel 92.0
56Brett Hull 91.7
57Elmer Lach 91.5
58Bryan Hextall 91.2
59Paul Coffey 91.2
60Nicklas Backstrom 91.0
61Mark Recchi 90.8
62Jarome Iginla 90.5
63Darryl Sittler 90.2
64Henri Richard 90.2
65Ron Francis 90.1
66Dale Hawerchuk 90.0
67Markus Naslund 89.8
68Frank Mahovlich 89.8
69Jamie Benn 89.4
70Paul Kariya 89.4
71Aurel Joliat 89.1
72Henrik Sedin 89.0
73Eric Lindros 88.9
74Paul Thompson 88.9
75Syd Howe 88.9
76Denis Savard 88.7
77Toe Blake 88.6
78Ilya Kovalchuk 88.6
79Gilbert Perreault 88.2
80Roy Conacher 87.9
81Joe Primeau 87.8
82Phil Kessel 87.3
83Alex Delvecchio 86.8
84Luc Robitaille 86.4
85Ryan Getzlaf 86.4
86John LeClair 86.3
87Cooney Weiland 85.8
88Doug Gilmour 85.7
89Daniel Alfredsson 85.7
90Rod Gilbert 85.6
91Lynn Patrick 85.6
92Hooley Smith 85.5
93Michel Goulet 85.5
94Dany Heatley 85.5
95John Tavares 85.4
96Marian Hossa 85.3
97Theoren Fleury 85.2
98Pavel Datsyuk 85.2
99Tyler Seguin 85.1
100Ziggy Palffy 85.0
101Bernie Nicholls 84.5
102Bobby Bauer 84.4
103Jeremy Roenick 84.4
104Patrik Elias 84.2
105Mats Sundin 84.1
106Daniel Sedin 83.9
107Sergei Fedorov 83.8
108Pierre Turgeon 83.7
109Mike Modano 83.7
110Phil Watson 83.3
111Eric Staal 83.2
112Erik Karlsson 82.8
113Larry Aurie 82.4
114Neil Colville 82.4
115Ted Kennedy 82.4
116Pat LaFontaine 82.3
117Blake Wheeler 82.2
118Brendan Shanahan 82.2
119Alexei Yashin 82.2
120Jason Spezza 82.1
121Alexander Mogilny 82.0
122Doug Weight 81.8
123Brad Richards 81.8
124Henrik Zetterberg 81.7
125Keith Tkachuk 81.6
126Cecil Dillon 81.5
127Bert Olmstead 81.4
128Alex Kovalev 81.4
129Bobby Rousseau 81.3
130Anze Kopitar 81.3
131Phil Goyette 81.3
132Ace Bailey 81.2
133Pavol Demitra 81.1
134Clint Smith 81.1
135Herbie Lewis 80.9
136Jacques Lemaire 80.9
137Vincent Lecavalier 80.7
138Taylor Hall 80.7
139Joe Pavelski 80.6
140Rick MacLeish 80.5
141Bernie Federko 80.5
142Paul Ronty 80.5
143Denis Potvin 80.4
144Billy Taylor 80.3
145Milan Hejduk 80.1
146Jason Allison 80.0
147Kent Nilsson 79.7
148Corey Perry 79.6
149Jakub Voracek 79.6
150Bill Thoms 79.6
151Marc Savard 79.4
152Pete Mahovlich 79.2
153Lanny McDonald 79.2
154Yvan Cournoyer 78.9
155Raymond Bourque 78.9
156Bun Cook 78.9
157Lorne Carr 78.7
158Tod Sloan 78.5
159Rick Middleton 78.4
160Don McKenney 78.2
161Bill Mosienko 78.2
162Dit Clapper 78.0
163Red Kelly 77.9
164Brian Leetch 77.8
165Ed Litzenberger 77.4
166Johnny Gottselig 77.4
167Steve Shutt 77.3
168Kenny Wharram 77.1
169Woody Dumart 77.1
170Alex Tanguay 77.1
171Peter Bondra 77.0
172Tony Amonte 76.7
173Kevin Stevens 76.7
174Rick Martin 76.7
175Mike Ribeiro 76.6
176Syl Apps 76.3
177Dennis Maruk 76.3
178Baldy Northcott 76.2
179Jonathan Toews 76.2
180Todd Bertuzzi 76.2
181Dave Keon 76.1
182Patrick Marleau 76.0
183Vincent Damphousse 75.9
184Eddie Wiseman 75.9
185Johnny Gagnon 75.8
186Gaye Stewart 75.6
187Dave Taylor 75.5
188Glenn Anderson 75.4
189Paul Haynes 75.4
190Rene Robert 75.3
191Steve Larmer 75.2
192Rod Brind'Amour 75.1
193Fred Stanfield 75.1
194Pit Martin 74.9
195Ebbie Goodfellow 74.8
196Joe Mullen 74.6
197Marian Gaborik 74.5
198Martin Straka 74.5
199Ray Whitney 74.4
200Brad Marchand 74.3
201Art Chapman 74.3
202Zach Parise 74.1
203Barry Pederson 73.9
204Wayne Cashman 73.7
205Glen Murray 73.6
206Robert Lang 73.6
207Bill Barber 73.6
208Charlie Simmer 73.4
209Jimmy Ward 73.3
210Vladimir Tarasenko 73.3
211Walt Tkaczuk 73.2
212Scott Gomez 73.2
213Joe Nieuwendyk 73.0
214Craig Janney 73.0
215Al MacInnis 72.9
216Garry Unger 72.9
217Dino Ciccarelli 72.8
218Nikita Kucherov 72.6
219Red Berenson 72.5
220Max Pacioretty 72.5
221Sid Smith 72.4
222Steve Sullivan 72.4
223Dave Andreychuk 72.3
224John McKenzie 72.2
225Thomas Vanek 72.1
226Olli Jokinen 72.1
227Tim Kerr 72.1
228Brent Burns 72.1
229Jeff Carter 71.8
230Nicklas Lidstrom 71.7
231Buddy O'Connor 71.7
232Dennis Hull 71.7
233Rick Nash 71.6
234Camille Henry 71.5
235Petr Nedved 71.4
236Greg Adams 71.3
237Bobby Smith 71.3
238Butch Goring 71.3
239Pierre Larouche 71.0
240Claude Provost 71.0
241Patrick Sharp 71.0
242Herb Cain 70.9
243Miroslav Satan 70.9
244Matt Duchene 70.8
245Wilf Paiement 70.8
246Owen Nolan 70.7
247Mike Gartner 70.6
248Tom Anderson 70.3
249Peter McNab 70.3
250Mickey Redmond 70.2
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Thank You!
 
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PenguinSpeed

Registered User
Oct 4, 2017
1,799
897
I put this together quickly (let me know if something looks out of line). Basically it's career VsX (for points) divided by games played (adjusted so every season is 82 games). The table is for players with 100+ games played (welcome Connor McDavid):

Player Adj GP VsX VsX/GP
Mario Lemieux 926 1,409 1.52
Wayne Gretzky 1,543 2,327 1.51
Bobby Orr 700 940 1.34
Sidney Crosby 808 1,079 1.34
Connor McDavid 127 166 1.31
Syl Apps Sr 681 839 1.23
Peter Forsberg 741 882 1.19
Evgeni Malkin 728 866 1.19
Gordie Howe 2,061 2,444 1.19
Jean Beliveau 1,292 1,519 1.18
Phil Esposito 1,369 1,609 1.18
Mike Bossy 771 894 1.16
Gordie Drillon 528 607 1.15
Bobby Hull 1,203 1,376 1.14
Alex Ovechkin 955 1,080 1.13
Howie Morenz 827 934 1.13
Maurice Richard 1,255 1,403 1.12
Charlie Conacher 796 879 1.10
Joe Sakic 1,415 1,534 1.08
Bill Cowley 910 982 1.08
Jaromir Jagr 1,777 1,914 1.08
Roy Conacher 696 746 1.07
Marcel Dionne 1,388 1,484 1.07
Patrick Kane 773 823 1.06
Eric Lindros 790 840 1.06
Bernie Geoffrion 1,029 1,093 1.06
Stan Mikita 1,529 1,610 1.05
Artemi Panarin 162 170 1.05
Steven Stamkos 620 645 1.04
Pavel Bure 731 753 1.03
Nicklas Backstrom 768 790 1.03
Nels Stewart 1,082 1,106 1.02
John Gaudreau 160 163 1.02
Ziggy Palffy 707 719 1.02
Elmer Lach 917 930 1.01
Doug Bentley 827 838 1.01
Bill Cook 843 855 1.01
Sweeney Schriner 819 829 1.01
Frank Boucher 943 949 1.01
Max Bentley 876 876 1.00
Guy Lafleur 1,161 1,158 1.00
Andy Bathgate 1,236 1,226 0.99
John Tavares 621 612 0.99
Bobby Bauer 536 527 0.98
Steve Yzerman 1,561 1,529 0.98
Ilya Kovalchuk 842 824 0.98
Joe Thornton 1,480 1,440 0.97
Ryan Getzlaf 892 867 0.97
Brett Hull 1,309 1,271 0.97
Pavel Datsyuk 986 956 0.97
Joe Primeau 543 527 0.97
Toe Blake 941 911 0.97
Marty Barry 885 853 0.96
Duke Keats 153 147 0.96
Jason Spezza 915 878 0.96
Peter Stastny 1,002 957 0.96
Jamie Benn 614 587 0.96
Paul Kariya 1,022 970 0.95
Frank Mahovlich 1,328 1,260 0.95
Milt Schmidt 1,087 1,030 0.95
Ted Lindsay 1,327 1,255 0.95
Kent Nilsson 571 538 0.94
Claude Giroux 690 649 0.94
Alexander Mogilny 1,023 958 0.94
Teemu Selanne 1,512 1,415 0.94
Gilbert Perreault 1,228 1,145 0.93
Pat LaFontaine 893 832 0.93
Mats Sundin 1,379 1,284 0.93
Dickie Moore 840 781 0.93
Adam Oates 1,379 1,282 0.93
Nikita Kucherov 285 265 0.93
Rod Gilbert 1,156 1,072 0.93
Martin St. Louis 1,168 1,083 0.93
Dick Irvin 175 162 0.93
Henrik Zetterberg 1,033 950 0.92
Bobby Clarke 1,185 1,087 0.92
Sid Abel 850 779 0.92
Tyler Seguin 542 496 0.92
Dale Hawerchuk 1,222 1,119 0.92
Ted Kennedy 907 828 0.91
Jean Ratelle 1,371 1,251 0.91
Vladimir Tarasenko 368 335 0.91
Daniel Alfredsson 1,279 1,162 0.91
Jonathan Toews 750 681 0.91
Norm Ullman 1,584 1,434 0.91
Jacques Lemaire 894 808 0.90
Theoren Fleury 1,120 1,011 0.90
Busher Jackson 1,087 980 0.90
Pierre Turgeon 1,335 1,200 0.90
Rick Martin 708 635 0.90
Anze Kopitar 873 783 0.90
Mark Messier 1,808 1,620 0.90
Erik Karlsson 568 508 0.89
Jack Eichel 142 127 0.89
Pavol Demitra 858 767 0.89
Billy Taylor 513 458 0.89
Ron Francis 1,778 1,588 0.89
Alex Delvecchio 1,765 1,575 0.89
John Bucyk 1,709 1,519 0.89
Bryan Trottier 1,309 1,159 0.89
[TBODY] [/TBODY]


-Excellent
 

Hockey Outsider

Registered User
Jan 16, 2005
9,429
15,566
Someone requested I post VsX for three years. Here's the top 150.

Player TOTAL
Wayne Gretzky 165.6
Phil Esposito 151.1
Bobby Orr 142.7
Gordie Howe 139.6
Mario Lemieux 135.2
Jaromir Jagr 123.0
Howie Morenz 121.4
Guy Lafleur 120.6
Stan Mikita 119.2
Bobby Hull 116.7
Marcel Dionne 114.5
Jean Beliveau 114.2
Charlie Conacher 114.1
Ted Lindsay 113.3
Bill Cowley 112.1
Bill Cook 109.0
Sidney Crosby 108.3
Joe Sakic 107.6
Maurice Richard 107.5
Bryan Trottier 106.7
Ken Hodge 105.4
Andy Bathgate 105.3
Patrick Kane 105.2
Evgeni Malkin 105.0
Joe Thornton 105.0
Sweeney Schriner 104.9
Dickie Moore 104.7
Syl Apps Sr 104.5
Martin St. Louis 104.4
Max Bentley 104.4
Milt Schmidt 103.9
Gordie Drillon 103.7
Mike Bossy 102.0
Alex Ovechkin 101.9
Steve Yzerman 101.3
Joe Primeau 100.8
Frank Boucher 100.8
John Bucyk 100.2
Busher Jackson 99.9
Peter Forsberg 99.5
Elmer Lach 99.5
Markus Naslund 98.9
Bobby Clarke 98.6
Bernie Geoffrion 98.6
Ace Bailey 98.5
Brett Hull 98.5
Pavel Bure 98.2
Claude Giroux 98.2
Doug Bentley 98.2
Teemu Selanne 98.2
Norm Ullman 98.1
Bryan Hextall 98.1
Henri Richard 98.0
Jari Kurri 97.8
Peter Stastny 97.6
Sid Abel 97.5
Jamie Benn 97.3
Steven Stamkos 97.3
Paul Coffey 97.2
Mark Messier 97.1
Marty Barry 97.0
Adam Oates 96.4
Nels Stewart 95.9
Cooney Weiland 95.7
Aurel Joliat 95.4
Syd Howe 95.3
Jarome Iginla 95.3
Darryl Sittler 95.1
Lynn Patrick 94.9
Mark Recchi 94.7
Paul Thompson 94.6
Jean Ratelle 94.4
Eric Lindros 94.2
Henrik Sedin 94.2
Dale Hawerchuk 93.8
Ron Francis 93.6
Denis Savard 93.4
Nicklas Backstrom 93.4
Larry Aurie 92.8
Ilya Kovalchuk 92.7
Paul Kariya 92.2
Toe Blake 92.1
Hooley Smith 92.1
Doug Gilmour 91.8
Dany Heatley 91.6
Gilbert Perreault 91.5
Bobby Bauer 91.5
Roy Conacher 91.3
Michel Goulet 91.2
Patrik Elias 91.2
Phil Kessel 91.1
Bernie Nicholls 91.1
Rick MacLeish 91.1
Daniel Alfredsson 91.0
Frank Mahovlich 91.0
Jason Allison 90.8
Connor McDavid 90.7
Daniel Sedin 90.5
Ziggy Palffy 90.3
Taylor Hall 90.3
Sergei Fedorov 89.7
Marian Hossa 89.6
John LeClair 89.6
Ryan Getzlaf 89.6
Luc Robitaille 89.5
Alex Delvecchio 89.5
Tyler Seguin 89.4
Nikita Kucherov 89.3
Neil Colville 89.3
Bobby Rousseau 89.1
Kenny Wharram 88.7
John Tavares 88.7
Pavel Datsyuk 88.6
Rod Gilbert 88.4
Pete Mahovlich 88.4
Paul Ronty 88.3
Bill Thoms 88.2
Eric Staal 88.2
Baldy Northcott 88.2
Ted Kennedy 88.1
Ed Litzenberger 87.7
Theoren Fleury 87.7
Corey Perry 87.7
Billy Taylor 87.6
Alexei Yashin 87.6
Milan Hejduk 87.6
Alex Kovalev 87.5
Bert Olmstead 87.4
Phil Watson 87.4
Pat LaFontaine 87.2
Alexander Mogilny 87.1
Mats Sundin 87.1
Herbie Lewis 87.1
Phil Goyette 87.1
Jeremy Roenick 87.0
Clint Smith 86.9
Brad Richards 86.7
Blake Wheeler 86.7
Joe Pavelski 86.6
Cecil Dillon 86.4
Pavol Demitra 86.4
Mike Modano 86.4
Paul Haynes 86.4
Kent Nilsson 86.4
Syl Apps 86.1
Jason Spezza 86.1
Jakub Voracek 86.1
Greg Adams 86.0
Erik Karlsson 85.9
Woody Dumart 85.8
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Some players who look particularly good - Ken Hodge (!), Patrick Kane, Sweeney Schriner, Gordie Drillon Markus Naslund.
 
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