lilidk
Registered User
- Mar 4, 2008
- 10,571
- 4,017
Speculation: Raymond Seider Contract Speculation
- Thread starter Ulysses31
- Start date
Nobody said it wasn't Larkin's team...
Seider is the better player at an equally valuable position.
Steve Yzerlland
Registered User
- Jul 18, 2018
- 8,553
- 4,278
Did you read the entire message? He is a 1D Ironman AND is more valuable. Missing 8 games is 8x more than Seider...
Yeah just failing to see where we needed to pretend that Raymond missing 8 games in his career somehow differentiates him from Seider lmao.
And if you wanna get real technical, Seider has missed 0 games. 8 x 0 = 0.
Steve Yzerlland
Registered User
- Jul 18, 2018
- 8,553
- 4,278
Seider>Raymond regardless of him never missing a game. Its an added bonus. I rather have Seider over two RaymondsYeah just failing to see where we needed to pretend that Raymond missing 8 games in his career somehow differentiates him from Seider lmao.
And if you wanna get real technical, Seider has missed 0 games. 8 x 0 = 0.
It's really not though. Neither player is injury prone so it wasn't really worth mentioning lol.
I just signed Seider 8x$5.5 in NHL24 and emailed it to his agent to use as comparables
It should be unacceptable to everyone. If you're okay with this being unnecessarily dragged out to the last minute and now to the point where they may not be at the start of training camp, then that's your right.
These deals should have been taken care of by the end of July at the latest.
I don't really give a f*** if they miss a few days of training camp lol.
This is not a big deal. If we're getting them at team friendly deals, I really don't give a shit if they missed a few days running drills while they're obviously both training in Germany.
Euro Twins
Healthy Scratch
- Mar 19, 2016
- 811
- 694
You would prefer to pay huge for these guys and set a high pay standard which would all but guarantee a perennial playoff loser with no depth like the leafs?
But hey it would have gotten down in July. The easy way
RedHawkDown
still trying to trust the yzerplan
False dichotomy. Every other team this summer got their young stars signed by now, all of which have been solid contracts fair for both parties.
These bad faith arguments get old quick.
izlez
We need more toe-drags/60
- Feb 28, 2012
- 4,892
- 3,841
Almost as old as the people complaining that it is not done yet.
You should start preparing for me to downplay them missing game one of the regular season. (Not actually) I just believe getting worked up about them not being signed at this point is pointless. There is no penalty or harm in negotiating into the start of training camp.
izlez
We need more toe-drags/60
- Feb 28, 2012
- 4,892
- 3,841
So beyond just posting a meme: Swayman, Harley, Perfetti, among others, are sitting unsigned.
This also made me look into how the other teams' boards about how they're reacting with not being signed and I found this quote from Jim Nill:
Seeing as how Nill and Yzerman came up in the same organization and learned a lot of the same things, that made me laugh. Nill is literally just chillin' while fans freak out
ricky0034
Registered User
- Jun 8, 2010
- 15,349
- 7,742
I can't wait till we're a few months into the season and people saying this doesn't matter are suddenly busting out the "what did you expect they didn't have a camp?" as an excuse for these guys underperforming
RedHawkDown
still trying to trust the yzerplan
Cole Perfetti is not comparable to Raymond. Neither is Mercer. Neither is Krebs or Tomasino. None of these guys broke 40 points this past season and none of them are close to a top offensive player on their teams. Harley has had one season at a pretty good level and will likely come in on a bridge contract around 5-6M, and is not comparable to Seider.
Swayman is the only player close to Seider or Raymond. None of these other teams have any unsigned players close to as important to their teams as Seider or Raymond are to us. The teams that did - Carolina (Jarvis, Necas), Seattle (Beniers), Montreal (Slafkovsky), Minnesota (Faber), Philly (Konecny), LA (Byfield) - all signed their players many weeks or months ago. To imply otherwise is simply disingenuous.
I'm not saying the world is over, the sky is falling, the team is screwed, etc. I'm just saying it's not great that these guys are not signed yet and if they start missing camp, that's really not a good thing and Yzerman deserves criticism if the contracts are anything but super team-friendly given how long he's dragged it out. It's annoying when false dichotomies are constantly presented here in response to any criticism - "Oh so you're panicking" anytime a sentiment other than "trust the Yzerplan" is mentioned. Or calling people trolls for the same.
It's possible to have a measured response and be critical of management and not be a troll or panicking.
izlez
We need more toe-drags/60
- Feb 28, 2012
- 4,892
- 3,841
So yeah,... if you take these two players:
6'3 205 lb defenseman
Drafted in the first round in 2019
42 points last year
vs
6'4 206 lb defenseman
Drafted in the first round in 2019
47 points last year
and tell us that they are simply not comparable in order to paint the red wings as though they sitting in some unique situation, I will just exit that conversation
If I was a Bruins fan, I'd be sweating heavily right now over Swayman not being signed.
Frk It
Mo Seider Less Problems
- Jul 27, 2010
- 36,680
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The Zetterberg Era
Ball Hockey Sucks
I think they miss some of camp because of work visas at this point.
RedHawkDown
still trying to trust the yzerplan
One just had a rookie season while being insulated by Heiskanen taking the hardest matchups, and one is on his third season as the teams 1D and only good defenseman. If you think they are comparable players at this stage, I also don’t really know what to say.
And you know what, even if we say fine, Harley is just as good and important as Seider, so Dallas is in the same spot - what does that change? Is it better that Detroit is one of 3/32 teams in this position instead of one of 2/32 teams (the other being Boston)? And in any case, we are the only team to have TWO players of this stature in the same situation.
Our Lady Peace
Registered User
Thing is, this whole time we haven't and won't be able to measure certain things. These would be:
1) when Seider and Raymond will be signing and whether or not they miss time from camp or regular season and;
2) speculating whether or not our two stars will start the season "rusty" due to missed time over contract negotiations
They're already training on ice as we speak, and there's plenty of stars who sit out a number of preseason games anyway. I'm not justifying missing time, I'm merely making the point That we don't know if they'll even miss important playing time
So to me the panic and frustration, while in a way is understandable, is compounding from us getting too far ahead of ourselves when we really have no idea what is going on with any of the player/agent/GM camps
With that being said... I think the less we know here, the better. The whole "far apart" rumours with Swayman for example create an echo chamber for fans to speculate that there is some sort of GM/player disconnect because player demand is not being met + time stretching out nearing the season's start. Again, we know nothing
1) when Seider and Raymond will be signing and whether or not they miss time from camp or regular season and;
2) speculating whether or not our two stars will start the season "rusty" due to missed time over contract negotiations
They're already training on ice as we speak, and there's plenty of stars who sit out a number of preseason games anyway. I'm not justifying missing time, I'm merely making the point That we don't know if they'll even miss important playing time
So to me the panic and frustration, while in a way is understandable, is compounding from us getting too far ahead of ourselves when we really have no idea what is going on with any of the player/agent/GM camps
With that being said... I think the less we know here, the better. The whole "far apart" rumours with Swayman for example create an echo chamber for fans to speculate that there is some sort of GM/player disconnect because player demand is not being met + time stretching out nearing the season's start. Again, we know nothing
It is not hard to find other examples of key young players whose negotiations took until mid-September and even later. Pietrangelo is one of the few really good comps for Seider as a two-way D who had early production success but never built on that to get to another level. He signed his first post-ELC contract in mid-September, his seven-year deal at just over 10 per cent of total Cap at that time is probably where Seider will end up if he signs long-term. Connor and Pettersson took even longer, until late September/early October, one getting a bridge deal, the other a seven-year deal. The short-term deal for the Canucks eventually worked out better for them than the long-term deal the Jets signed with Connor. Both players struggled a bit the following season but in the long run it didn't matter. Nylander's post-ELC deal took until the Dec. 1 deadline, didn't really matter at all that season or in the long run for the player or a particularly poorly managed team.
Nor is it hard to understand why negotiations are taking longer than panicky fans would like. If we're being real here about resumes/expectations, Raymond has just one season of top-end production while also elevating his two-way play; Seider's production has declined and Detroit may not project him going forward as a PP1 guy scoring 50-plus points. But in both cases, particularly Seider, their value is more than the points they produce and it's not unreasonable at all to think they both may have more offensive upside. So yeah, sides get entrenched, hard to find common ground, It shouldn't surprise anyone if the eventual common ground for at least one of them is less than the max years.
If it appears SY may be playing hardball here, it's for good reason. Seider/Raymond could turn out to be the best and highest-paid players of anyone SY has drafted to date. Signing them to fair contracts, whether it's three, five or eight-year deals, would set everything up Cap-wise for years to come. Overpaying them now, just to get it done, could lead to more overpays down the road as players/agents judge their value relative to the guys being overpaid, and less room to add whatever's missing. Any short-term price the Wings may have to pay now for their absence or a slow start is worth it if makes things easier when seasons will matter more than just trying to get a WC berth.
Bottom line, it does not matter at all how long this takes. What matters is where it ends up in terms of dollars and years, not when.
Nor is it hard to understand why negotiations are taking longer than panicky fans would like. If we're being real here about resumes/expectations, Raymond has just one season of top-end production while also elevating his two-way play; Seider's production has declined and Detroit may not project him going forward as a PP1 guy scoring 50-plus points. But in both cases, particularly Seider, their value is more than the points they produce and it's not unreasonable at all to think they both may have more offensive upside. So yeah, sides get entrenched, hard to find common ground, It shouldn't surprise anyone if the eventual common ground for at least one of them is less than the max years.
If it appears SY may be playing hardball here, it's for good reason. Seider/Raymond could turn out to be the best and highest-paid players of anyone SY has drafted to date. Signing them to fair contracts, whether it's three, five or eight-year deals, would set everything up Cap-wise for years to come. Overpaying them now, just to get it done, could lead to more overpays down the road as players/agents judge their value relative to the guys being overpaid, and less room to add whatever's missing. Any short-term price the Wings may have to pay now for their absence or a slow start is worth it if makes things easier when seasons will matter more than just trying to get a WC berth.
Bottom line, it does not matter at all how long this takes. What matters is where it ends up in terms of dollars and years, not when.
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