Speculation: Raymond Seider Contract Speculation

[Axel Sandy Pelikan]

Yes, he most definitely is.

I mean... not really. 9.5M is full UFA "#1D" salary. That's what Darnell Nurse, Zach Werenski, Seth Jones all got. He's got RFA years being bought out. He's not worth that. I mean, 6x9 was Cale Makar with a similar amount of RFA years remaining.

It is wild how people don't get RFA comps.

9M is an overpay for Mo Seider. You can be okay with the overpay to just have it done, but at current 8x9 would be a very strong overpay not supported by a whole lot and it would be a panic move.

Raymond's cap on his potential salary is Tim Stutzle's deal. And he's going to sign for less than that, because he's not a Center and he doesn't have as many points.

 

[Axel Sandy Pelikan]

The paid SJ a 2nd round pick to TAKE Walman. If not for all the bad deals, his contract likely wouldn't have been bad enough to jettison and give something up. So damn stupid. But its like here at work, managers make a bad hire and keep them, instead of admitting they made a mistake and getting rid of the bad hire. It's the same with these bad signings.



Would you approve of that?

I'm confused here. Walman was a bad signing and they didn't keep him. Yeah, they had to pay to move the deal (which sucked), but they cleared one of the dead weight contracts that everyone would be mad about. Oh wait, Walman can dance before he gives the puck away so his bad contract is okay.

They traded him to make FA period feasible. They were seriously in on Stammer, but when the Nashville deal came through, it was obvious the Wings would have to sell more to fit him in and it didn't make sense at that point. They got rid of Walman and not someone else because Walman burned his bridge in Detroit.

 

[Frk It]

I mean... not really. 9.5M is full UFA "#1D" salary. That's what Darnell Nurse, Zach Werenski, Seth Jones all got. He's got RFA years being bought out. He's not worth that. I mean, 6x9 was Cale Makar with a similar amount of RFA years remaining.

It is wild how people don't get RFA comps.

9M is an overpay for Mo Seider. You can be okay with the overpay to just have it done, but at current 8x9 would be a very strong overpay not supported by a whole lot and it would be a panic move.

Raymond's cap on his potential salary is Tim Stutzle's deal. And he's going to sign for less than that, because he's not a Center and he doesn't have as many points.

Bingo.

I'm confused here. Walman was a bad signing and they didn't keep him. Yeah, they had to pay to move the deal (which sucked), but they cleared one of the dead weight contracts that everyone would be mad about. Oh wait, Walman can dance before he gives the puck away so his bad contract is okay.

They traded him to make FA period feasible. They were seriously in on Stammer, but when the Nashville deal came through, it was obvious the Wings would have to sell more to fit him in and it didn't make sense at that point. They got rid of Walman and not someone else because Walman burned his bridge in Detroit.

You're reaching... HARD

 

[DougBodger]

How did Walman "burn his bridge in Detroit?"

He signed the deal offered to him by Yzerman and was traded with an asset so Yzerman could get out of the deal he agreed to with Walman.

If anything, Yzerman burned his bridge with Walman.

 

[The Zermanator]

I mean... not really. 9.5M is full UFA "#1D" salary. That's what Darnell Nurse, Zach Werenski, Seth Jones all got. He's got RFA years being bought out. He's not worth that. I mean, 6x9 was Cale Makar with a similar amount of RFA years remaining.

It is wild how people don't get RFA comps.

9M is an overpay for Mo Seider. You can be okay with the overpay to just have it done, but at current 8x9 would be a very strong overpay not supported by a whole lot and it would be a panic move.

Raymond's cap on his potential salary is Tim Stutzle's deal. And he's going to sign for less than that, because he's not a Center and he doesn't have as many points.

Well first of all the guy said 9M, not 9.5M. Not a huge difference but it matters. And you're using deals signed years ago to justify the value of a deal being signed in 2024. Brock Faber just got 8.5M on an 8yr deal. Maybe you just have an outdated idea of where the market is.

To me, the 25 minute/game all-situations #1 dman carrying the rest of the D corps on his shoulders is worth 9M a year. Even today. And that deal gets better and better with each passing year too.

 

[saska sault]

Was Necas signing the one we were waiting for to compare to Raymond? Seems like this will only help speed up things...or not. Who cares. Ray and Mo will be in Detroit for a long time.

 

[13to40]

How did Walman "burn his bridge in Detroit?"

He signed the deal offered to him by Yzerman and was traded with an asset so Yzerman could get out of the deal he agreed to with Walman.

If anything, Yzerman burned his bridge with Walman.

An ex-teammate last season had made a comment about how one of the D-men who played mostly with Seider when healthy was stirring the pot in the locker room.

Same player who said the leadership was an issue right around when the team went on a huge skid last season.

So no I don’t think Yzerman burned the bridge, I think Walman was No longer welcomed on the team hence why he had an asset attached to him, to ensure he was moved far away.

I also hope that by giving SJ a second, hopefully it’s to also entice them on taking Holl when he’s waved to start the season. (This is just me speculating with probably too much hope)

Well first of all the guy said 9M, not 9.5M. Not a huge difference but it matters. And you're using deals signed years ago to justify the value of a deal being signed in 2024. Brock Faber just got 8.5M on an 8yr deal. Maybe you just have an outdated idea of where the market is.

To me, the 25 minute/game all-situations #1 dman carrying the rest of the D corps on his shoulders is worth 9M a year. Even today. And that deal gets better and better with each passing year too.

I would be ecstatic if Seider gets the same contract as Faber.

If Mo is to sign long term, I believe the AAV is north of 9.

If it’s short term; bridge deal: I could see 6-7M over 2-3 years.

Same goes for Raymond.

 

[FMichael]

As a Habs fan I haven’t followed it as closely as my own team. What was the deal with Walman?

No one knows as Yzerman is very tight lipped with few leaks. Only things we have are rumours of him being cleared to play after he was injured but apparently electing to hold himself out of the lineup a little bit longer. Also when he was scratched a little bit later, Lalonde made some comment about "him not being himself", but no one knows what he meant by that.

Not more than a handful of days after the season ending a poster on a Red Wings sub-Reddit mentioned of knowing a current Red Wings player (no names mentioned) and that during Larkin's late season injury and team slide that Walman apparently was a divisive presence in the locker room.

 

[norrisnick]

Would you approve of that?

In a heartbeat. The trick is would Mo and/or Ray.

 

[dalem177]

Not more than a handful of days after the season ending a poster on a Red Wings sub-Reddit mentioned of knowing a current Red Wings player (no names mentioned) and that during Larkin's late season injury and team slide that Walman apparently was a divisive presence in the locker room.

I find it difficult to believe that there are fans here who don't see that one of the highest priories for Yzerman is the team's character and locker room. Vrana flamed out and had a long "we'll see" evaluation period and was launched. Sprong apparently didn't buy in enough to the "two-way" aspect SY likes. Sat and then gone. Walman getting dumped the way he did means that he obviously did some things that got him on Stevie's extremely no bueno shit list.

It's not that complicated.

 

[GoBoltz56]

Was Necas signing the one we were waiting for to compare to Raymond? Seems like this will only help speed up things...or not. Who cares. Ray and Mo will be in Detroit for a long time.

Seems like a pretty good comparison, especially the point totals the last 3 years (and Necas has a longer resume). 2-3 years around 6.5 would be a good deal. Mittelstadt got 3 years 5.75, so I think Raymond would fall somewhere between 5.75 and 6.5.

 

[Henkka]

If I were them, I wouldn't take any pay cuts - to make the team better! No money left for the next Holl!

And no money left for Kane and Tarasenko.

You must be happy.

 

[norrisnick]

Was Necas signing the one we were waiting for to compare to Raymond? Seems like this will only help speed up things...or not. Who cares. Ray and Mo will be in Detroit for a long time.

Not really, no. Jarvis is the Cane that's running parallel with Raymond. Both Ray and Jarvis are a tier above Necas, IMO. They got to Necas' level 3 years younger.

 

[Oddbob]

Well first of all the guy said 9M, not 9.5M. Not a huge difference but it matters. And you're using deals signed years ago to justify the value of a deal being signed in 2024. Brock Faber just got 8.5M on an 8yr deal. Maybe you just have an outdated idea of where the market is.

To me, the 25 minute/game all-situations #1 dman carrying the rest of the D corps on his shoulders is worth 9M a year. Even today. And that deal gets better and better with each passing year too.

He only plays 22.5 minutes a night under Lalonde and has 42 pts in each of the last 2 seasons, plus 50 his first season, that is not 9 million worth today. That is 7 or so, the rest is for what you hope he will become. Makar currently makes 9 mil a season and he had more than double the pts of Mo and played more per night. Mo was 31st in D pts this past season which is good, not 9 mil worth. I love Seider and am fine if he gets 8-9 a year right now, but that is with the hope he becomes a 24-25 minutes a night guy with 50pts+ every season and stellar defence.

 

[raymond23]

I'm not taking any discounts if I'm Mo with that ridiculous usage he got last year

 

[norrisnick]

He only plays 22.5 minutes a night under Lalonde and has 42 pts in each of the last 2 seasons, plus 50 his first season, that is not 9 million worth today. That is 7 or so, the rest is for what you hope he will become. Makar currently makes 9 mil a season and he had more than double the pts of Mo and played more per night. Mo was 31st in D pts this past season which is good, not 9 mil worth. I love Seider and am fine if he gets 8-9 a year right now, but that is with the hope he becomes a 24-25 minutes a night guy with 50pts+ every season and stellar defence.

Might I remind you that Hronek just signed for $7.25M?

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

He only plays 22.5 minutes a night under Lalonde and has 42 pts in each of the last 2 seasons, plus 50 his first season, that is not 9 million worth today. That is 7 or so, the rest is for what you hope he will become. Makar currently makes 9 mil a season and he had more than double the pts of Mo and played more per night. Mo was 31st in D pts this past season which is good, not 9 mil worth. I love Seider and am fine if he gets 8-9 a year right now, but that is with the hope he becomes a 24-25 minutes a night guy with 50pts+ every season and stellar defence.

Faber just signed 8x8.5
Owen Power signed for 7x8.35
Miro Heiskanen signed for 8x8.45
Jake Sanderson signed 8x8.05

Seider is better than all of them except Heiskanen, though I think he could become as good or better. And Mo has played with partners that are worse than all of their partners.

If anything, this delay is making me think Yzerman is f***ing up by not having Mo signed to 8x8.5 right now. Faber signing to that deal is going to make me think Mo is pointing at it and saying "I want more."

 

[HisNoodliness]

He only plays 22.5 minutes a night under Lalonde and has 42 pts in each of the last 2 seasons, plus 50 his first season, that is not 9 million worth today. That is 7 or so, the rest is for what you hope he will become. Makar currently makes 9 mil a season and he had more than double the pts of Mo and played more per night. Mo was 31st in D pts this past season which is good, not 9 mil worth. I love Seider and am fine if he gets 8-9 a year right now, but that is with the hope he becomes a 24-25 minutes a night guy with 50pts+ every season and stellar defence.

Makar signed that 6 year contract in 2021. If we want to sign Seider to an 8 year contract in 2024, what Makar makes is, unfortunately, not very relevant.

 

[ShanahanMan]

Regardless of what people think, it’s not a good look that two of our core guys don’t have contracts going into August.

 

[Henkka]

Just as a note, Faber scored more points than Seider and played higher minutes.

So maybe Seider deserves less than Faber.

 

[raymond23]

Just as a note, Faber scored more points than Seider and played higher minutes.

So maybe Seider deserves less than Faber.

Seider got completely screwed over with his usage last year, so I doubt it.

 

[Oddbob]

Might I remind you that Hronek just signed for $7.25M?

Might I remind you that he is overpaid and is basically UFA for most of those years, so not the same thing at all. Nurse also gets 9+ so others contracts mean nothing.

 

[norrisnick]

Might I remind you that he is overpaid and is basically UFA for most of those years, so not the same thing at all. Nurse also gets 9+ so others contracts mean nothing.

If a bunch of guys are overpaid, that just means that's what those kind of guys get paid. More accurate to state that the handful of good deals are the outliers as being underpaid.

Sanderson, Power, Faber. None of these guys have Mo's record to date, all signing north of $8M. Like it or not, that's the market. Not whatever it is you think kids of that caliber should make.

 

[Oddbob]

Faber just signed 8x8.5
Owen Power signed for 7x8.35
Miro Heiskanen signed for 8x8.45
Jake Sanderson signed 8x8.05

Seider is better than all of them except Heiskanen, though I think he could become as good or better. And Mo has played with partners that are worse than all of their partners.

If anything, this delay is making me think Yzerman is f***ing up by not having Mo signed to 8x8.5 right now. Faber signing to that deal is going to make me think Mo is pointing at it and saying "I want more."

I am not saying Seider shouldn't get that, but Power and Sanderson also aren't yet worth their deals. If 9 mil gets you 42 pts and only 23 a night that is a stiff overpay. We will give Seider the money because we hope he gets better.

If Seider stays what he is, I can't be the only one that would be disappointed at 8+ mil a year for that. I think Seider will get there, but he isn't in the 9 mil category yet.

When you spend big money on a defender they need to be playing at least 24 a night in all situations.

 

[Oddbob]

If a bunch of guys are overpaid, that just means that's what those kind of guys get paid. More accurate to state that the handful of good deals are the outliers as being underpaid.

Sanderson, Power, Faber. None of these guys have Mo's record to date, all signing north of $8M. Like it or not, that's the market. Not whatever it is you think kids of that caliber should make.

Did I say Seider shouldn't get that money? No, I did not! I said he currently isn't worth the current money, and neither are the other youngsters learning their way in the NHL. Minnesota is also taking a massive risk that Faber isn't a flash in the pan with only one season under his belt. Not saying he is, but lots of defenders have awesome rookie seasons and then never improve ala guys like Barrett Jackman who won the Calder but was then only a decent defender after that.

I would have given Seider 8x8.5 in like February, but something tells me Claude is doing anti Wing things and trying to get Seider 10 or something, otherwise why is he not signed yet.