Player Discussion Rasmus Dahlin Part 4 - D (1st Overall, 2018, Frölunda HC, SHL)

[Bendium]

Where did you get this quote from?

Big Sabres questions for Jack Han - by Joe Yerdon (substack.com)

 

[BowieSabresFan]

"The big issue in his game when he was breaking into the NHL, was his flawed footwork when defending the rush. He would pivot or cross over at the wrong moments, and elite NHLers picked up on that quickly." - Jack Han

This. You want to help Dahlin? Then he needs to sit out every other game so you can put him through a year of skating training with a specialist. Such an investment would get him where he needs to be quicker, and possibly recover his value.

Sit him every other game to work on his skating? If coaches perceive a skating issue to be worked on, they'll do it during practice and in the 0ff-season. There is no reason to yank him out of half the games to do that. Besides, I can't imagine the Sabres' D without Dahlin playing. He's easily our best transitional player.

"Possibly recover his value?" You make that sound like he's worth a conditional 7th or something.

 

[Der Jaeger]

Ok, but it feels like you are reaching for that comparison which you otherwise wouldn't be doing if Dahlin would be now what he was supposed to be in his 4th season (lol, what sentence.. )

What i'm saying is: He should be Lidstrom now, but he isn't.
Now, this is not sarcasm nor provocative towards you, because i'm actually interested right now: What makes you think will make him a Lidstrom later in his career? What does he have to do to become a Lidstrom?

Lidstrom wasn’t even Lidstrom until he was 28 years old. Size, speed types break in fast and easier. Guys who win by mental processing take a little longer.

 

[member 334057]

Lidstrom wasn’t even Lidstrom until he was 28 years old. Size, speed types break in fast and easier. Guys who win by mental processing take a little longer.

I mean Lidstrom had 60 points and a +36 rating his rookie year when he was 20 or 21 I think. He didn't start winning Norris trophies until later but he was still a great defenseman almost from the beginning, he just hit another level in his late 20's. He still received Norris votes as early as his 3rd season and by 25 he received norris votes every year after.

 

[Doug Prishpreed]

I mean Lidstrom had 60 points and a +36 rating his rookie year when he was 20 or 21 I think. He didn't start winning Norris trophies until later but he was still a great defenseman almost from the beginning, he just hit another level in his late 20's. He still received Norris votes as early as his 3rd season and by 25 he received norris votes every year after.

Exactly. Lots of re-writing of history when it comes to Lidstrom. He was great from day one. Hard not to take seriously any comparisons of Dahlin to Lidstrom.

 

[Chainshot]

Exactly. Lots of re-writing of history when it comes to Lidstrom. He was great from day one. Hard not to take seriously any comparisons of Dahlin to Lidstrom.

He was not great from day one. He was good, but as someone who is old enough to remember the Dead Things era prior to even Lidstrom arriving, he was not what he was in later years immediately.

 

[Doug Prishpreed]

He was not great from day one. He was good, but as someone who is old enough to remember the Dead Things era prior to even Lidstrom arriving, he was not what he was in later years immediately.

Of course he took time to develop and wasn't a Norris-caliber player right away. Not sure why you thought I meant that.

But he was definitely great from day one in the NHL (0.75 ppg, plus-35), especially when compared to Dahlin the same D+3 year (0.41 ppg, minus-36). You could argue he was twice as good as Dahlin at the same age. That's "great" by any definition.

My point was that it's insane to compare the two players, and your post does nothing to refute that. You're arguing a point I didn't even make, pretty lame.

 

[Chainshot]

Of course he took time to develop and wasn't a Norris-caliber player right away. Not sure why you thought I meant that.

But he was definitely great from day one in the NHL (0.75 ppg, plus-35), especially when compared to Dahlin the same D+3 year (0.41 ppg, minus-36). You could argue he was twice as good as Dahlin at the same age. That's "great" by any definition.

My point was that it's insane to compare the two players, and your post does nothing to refute that. You're arguing a point I didn't even make, pretty lame.

Pre-first lockout era hockey where guys like Paul Ysabaert was a +44 and a 30 goal guy? That era? Ooookay.

Edit - let's also talk about how Lidstrom had the chance to play behind one of the best defensive centers of his era (Fedorov) and one of it's most dynamic scorers who developed into one of the better 2-way centers of the '90's. Dahlin has had no such luxury.

 

[Chainshot]

Lidstrom was very good when he arrived, he was likely due a Norris prior to the one he won and that was something talked about in press circles. And his last one was talked about as being rep more than being deserved.

 

[Der Jaeger]

I mean Lidstrom had 60 points and a +36 rating his rookie year when he was 20 or 21 I think. He didn't start winning Norris trophies until later but he was still a great defenseman almost from the beginning, he just hit another level in his late 20's. He still received Norris votes as early as his 3rd season and by 25 he received norris votes every year after.

Exactly. Lots of re-writing of history when it comes to Lidstrom. He was great from day one. Hard not to take seriously any comparisons of Dahlin to Lidstrom.

As someone who remembers all those years, it’s not re-writing of history. Nor is it a fair comparison to talk points.

In Lidstrom’s second season, 21 players broke 100 points. In the last non-Covid shortened season, six players broke 100 points.

It was a different era and judging Lidstrom vs Dahlin by points is silly.

Edit: Lidstrom also broke in on a playoff team with two of the best centers ever to play on his team.

Watch a full Red Wings game from Lidstrom’s rookie season, not just a highlight package, and you’ll see why I’m making this comparison.

 

[member 334057]

As someone who remembers all those years, it’s not re-writing of history. Nor is it a fair comparison to talk points.

In Lidstrom’s second season, 21 players broke 100 points. In the last non-Covid shortened season, six players broke 100 points.

It was a different era and judging Lidstrom vs Dahlin by points is silly.

Edit: Lidstrom also broke in on a playoff team with two of the best centers ever to play on his team.

Watch a full Red Wings game from Lidstrom’s rookie season, not just a highlight package, and you’ll see why I’m making this comparison.

Ok then how about we compare or use other criteria instead of points. Perhaps awards and award voting. There were only 3 seasons Lidstrom did not receive Norris votes. 1st, 2nd, and 4th seasons. At 23 he finished 8th in Norris voting, at 25 he finished 6th, at 26 he finished 6th. at 27 he finished 2nd. Yes he played for some very good teams, but he was also part of the reason those teams were so good. His advanced stats, point shares etc that are actually available for his entire career pretty much show he had 2 subpar years by Lidstrom standards and that would really be year 2 and year 4. However year 4 he also followed up a rather slow year by going almost a ppg in the playoffs.

I'm not saying Dahlin can't improve, he absolutely can, but comparing him to Lidstrom is just absurd, he's not nor will he be in the same realm as Lidstrom. You aren't the only person who watched Lidstrom early in his career. Yes he wasn't as good defensively at 22 as he was at 32 but he was still far more effective than Dahlin currently is. You can use age to age comparisons all you want, but Dahlin has had 4 years to adjust to the North American game and has had to deal with 3 different coaches now so I'm not completely faulting him but there is something very wrong right with his decision making and confidence. Put him on a great team and perhaps he does develop into what people expected, but it's too late for that.

 

[MarkusKetterer]

He is a high event D. People don't know how to wrap their heads around that.

And despite what people said in the off season about being happy if this team played hard and stuff, the way they have reacted to this team being a high event losing team tells the truth. The long playoff drought has many fans wanting the team to win and nothing else.

Damn right I’m not happy. I want this team to finally finish outside of being one of the 10 worst teams in the league. And I want that done as late as this season. We’re already going to set the record for playoff futility. Let’s not set another record for being complete dogshit.

 

[Der Jaeger]

Ok then how about we compare or use other criteria instead of points. Perhaps awards and award voting. There were only 3 seasons Lidstrom did not receive Norris votes. 1st, 2nd, and 4th seasons. At 23 he finished 8th in Norris voting, at 25 he finished 6th, at 26 he finished 6th. at 27 he finished 2nd. Yes he played for some very good teams, but he was also part of the reason those teams were so good. His advanced stats, point shares etc that are actually available for his entire career pretty much show he had 2 subpar years by Lidstrom standards and that would really be year 2 and year 4. However year 4 he also followed up a rather slow year by going almost a ppg in the playoffs.

I'm not saying Dahlin can't improve, he absolutely can, but comparing him to Lidstrom is just absurd, he's not nor will he be in the same realm as Lidstrom. You aren't the only person who watched Lidstrom early in his career. Yes he wasn't as good defensively at 22 as he was at 32 but he was still far more effective than Dahlin currently is. You can use age to age comparisons all you want, but Dahlin has had 4 years to adjust to the North American game and has had to deal with 3 different coaches now so I'm not completely faulting him but there is something very wrong right with his decision making and confidence. Put him on a great team and perhaps he does develop into what people expected, but it's too late for that.

Lidstrom was not good defensively until near the Red Wings Cups. At the same point in their careers, 4th season, Lidstrom was not the all-star level player we now know. The Devils outright abused him in the Cup finals. Until then, he was shielded by an insanely talented lineup.

But the thought process, the things Lidstrom was trying to do, the subtle stick plays he was trying to make…. but didn’t. You could see it. He was a cerebral player in a time of fast skating D and physical smashers. It took him a bit longer. And he had one of the best coaches ever.

Dahlin is the same. You can see what he’s thinking but it’s not there yet. He’s inconsistent with what he’s trying to do and making it work.

You’re criticizing a 22 year old who plays a cerebral game because he’s not blowing people away like Makar. So what?

The kid has two 40 point seasons already, one in less than 60 games. He had a crappy coach who screwed his game up and his third season. We’ve seen flashes of brilliance under Granato. And he’s on his way to a 50 point season on a bottom 5 roster. For a kid who’s going to develop later and be a cerebral player, I’ll take that all day.

You can focus on the now and complain because he sucked last game. Bump this thread in five years. Remember the Keith Ballard vs Duncan Keith argument? You’re on the Ballard side.

 

[MarkusKetterer]

Uh, guys, Dahlin is still only 21.

 

[Chainshot]

So the pros are that he's a very productive player for his age, has some folks who measure things like exits, transition and entries as being one of the better players in the NHL right now, and that he has shown willingness to improve and seeks coaching.

The cons are with how he causes chances against (often high-risk puck plays) and how he defends on some plays, both in transition and statically in his own zone. Physically, he needs more burst and speed over distance from how some of this has played out, both of which are things that can be improved with continued training. Consistency behind the bench would also be helpful, especially to undo the Kruegering he got for the portions of the last two seasons.

 

[GOALOFSSON]

But he was definitely great from day one in the NHL (0.75 ppg, plus-35), especially when compared to Dahlin the same D+3 year (0.41 ppg, minus-36). You could argue he was twice as good as Dahlin at the same age. That's "great" by any definition.

Bruh

Uh, guys, Dahlin is still only 21.

Thought I woke up from a coma and no one told me

 

[beerme1]

Dahlin comparisons are all off. He’s not
Hedman, and he should never be compared to Makar or Quinn. That’s not his game.

He’s Lidstrom. Nick Lidstrom played in somewhat obscurity until he was around 28, and was part of the Wings’ Cup teams. He didn’t win the Norris until he was 30, and he won 6 of them.

Other defender in his era got more notoriety: Leetch, MacInnis, Zubov, Stevens, Pronger, Niedermeyer, and at the later stages of their careers, Coffey, Housley, and Bourque.

But looking back, Lidstrom was the best of his era and ranks near Orr and Fetisov as the best defensemen to ever play.

We’d be exceptionally foolish to bail on Dahlin now. He’ll be elite for a long, long time because of his mind.

So can we wait to pay him until he hits 30 and reaches Lidstrom status? I'm guessing not.

 

[beerme1]

Have to say, this is very cool by Dahlin. Awesome! Check it out. I didn't see this on our broadcast. Rock Paper Scissors with a kid in the stands with a sign who gets the stick. Awesome!

 

[MarkusKetterer]

Bruh



Thought I woke up from a coma and no one told me

You thought correctly.

Although me saying he’s 21 is so people stop saying he’s 22 than anything

 

[Dubi Doo]

Uh, guys, Dahlin is still only 21.

From my viewing- a lot of his issues are mental. He loses focus some times, or he loses some confidence. When he's feeling it- he's magic.

 

[MarkusKetterer]

From my viewing- a lot of his issues are mental. He loses focus some times, or he loses some confidence. When he's feeling it- he's magic.

His issues are our issues

 

[Fearnot]

From my viewing- a lot of his issues are mental. He loses focus some times, or he loses some confidence. When he's feeling it- he's magic.

Did you see Shea Theodore get burnt at the end of the Vegas/Anaheim game? I thought it was Dahlin playing defense what a bust! For real though this happens to every D-man and a lot of people have an axe to grind and will ignore prior games where he was completely fine.

 

[Fezzy126]

So the pros are that he's a very productive player for his age, has some folks who measure things like exits, transition and entries as being one of the better players in the NHL right now, and that he has shown willingness to improve and seeks coaching.

The cons are with how he causes chances against (often high-risk puck plays) and how he defends on some plays, both in transition and statically in his own zone. Physically, he needs more burst and speed over distance from how some of this has played out, both of which are things that can be improved with continued training. Consistency behind the bench would also be helpful, especially to undo the Kruegering he got for the portions of the last two seasons.

My disappointment in Dahlin's play is directly correlated to my own expectations. At a macro level, he's capable of driving play and having a large impact on the game, which is a rarity for defensemen in the NHL (seriously, there's probably only a dozen or so defenseman that can do this consistently). The problem is we've only seen glimpses because of the coaching and roster instability over the past few years.

That being said, my biggest disappointment has been that his dynamic skills haven't translated to 4v4 or 3v3 situations. For some reason when there is more ice available, and more time and space to operate, he hasn't been able to drive positive results.

I'm not on team 'trade Dahlin', or 'he's a bust', not even close, but I definitely want to see more from him and I think he's capable of it and eventually going to deliver.

 

[member 334057]

Did you see Shea Theodore get burnt at the end of the Vegas/Anaheim game? I thought it was Dahlin playing defense what a bust! For real though this happens to every D-man and a lot of people have an axe to grind and will ignore prior games where he was completely fine.

I don't really have a major issue with Dahlin or any axe to grind per se, my issue was simply the Lidstrom comparisons as a whole which really add just another layer of expectations he is unlikely to ever meet.

As for Dahlin himself, he still has too many mental lapses where he just makes flat out poor decisions with the puck. Some of that seems like a lack of positional awareness such as the Tanev turnover as the most recent example. I don't know if he was trying to flip the puck over Tanevs stick and failed to do so or if he simply did not even notice he was sneaking in on the play. When he's on his game he generally does look good, but he still has made glaring mistakes even in the good games. Having competent goaltending and a solid right side partner can mask and make up for some of those inconsistencies but the underlying stats (Corsi, Fenwick etc) show a substantial regression this season especially on the powerplay which is very concerning to me because that's really where he should be thriving. Being surrounded by a bad team can obviously affect those metrics, but having sub 50% possession numbers in most situations when he's on the ice while also getting close to 65% offensive zone starts is really troubling as those numbers are down even from his time under Kreuger.

Like I stated in a previous post, I think there is something very wrong with him right now. Maybe he really does need a sports psychologist at this point, maybe they still need to figure out the best way to coach him, or maybe he needs to be given a restart where he plays less minutes and is relied upon a little less to build his confidence back up.

 

[Abraham de Lacy]

I trust my eyes on both the good and the bad. Eyes tell me he sees the game and delivers the puck at the absolute elite level. Eyes also tells me he is too close to the edge and plays nonchalantly where there is no error for margin (my dad used to call this "youthful exuberance").

The first can not be taught and the second can be ironed out with good coaching. Nicklas Lidstrom said during Dahlins draft year that he resembled Brian Leetch .. which is the most apt comparison for him.

Also .. as others have mentioned .. he's only 21 yrs old. What fans should be worried about is not their own patience but whether Dahlin has patience with the Sabres.

[edit:] exuberance & schpeelling