Proposal: Rasmus Dahlin For Moritz Seider

Dfence033

Registered User
Nov 24, 2009
1,296
792
Texas
No way the Sabres do this. I like Seider, but Dahlin is special. And in no way in the Dobson/Bouchard tier of defenseman. Both good players, but I’d rate Dahlin right behind the best of the best group: Makar, Fox, Q. Hughes (assuming no massive regression from him), Dahlin is in the argument for the 4-5 spot for me with guys like Josi.

Seider is good, but calling him a top 2-3 defenseman in the league next season is a tremendous stretch unless you think a 25 year old Makar, 26 year old Fox, and 24 year old Q. Hughes all retire, suffer major career-altering injuries, or have the biggest statistical declines for superstar players in their mid 20s in history. If anything, it’s Dahlin who’s next up to crack that category if one falters.
 

OgeeOgelthorpe

Riccis per 60 record holder
Feb 29, 2020
18,252
19,948
The reason Seider isn't signed is cause the Red wings DO NOT want to give the kind of contract Dahlin has.

Expect Raymond and Seider to sign at the same time for about the same money. Theyre best friends and are the 2nd and 3rd best players on the roster. And both are currently working out with Mannheim this offseason. Oh, and Mo posted himself buying a bunch of new custom suits from a tailor in Germany and is building a house in Michigan.

Yzerman is less worried about signing a kid than he is signing someone for more than Larkin. They’ll be signed before training camp together and presented at the same press conference.
 

Golden_Jet

Registered User
Sep 21, 2005
26,336
13,643
Well, looks like I started something here. Really interesting, passionate debate. Thank You to everyone who put in a response. I think I need to add context to why I made the thread in the first place. This may place responses in a different context.

So, I am a Jets fan who lives in Vancouver. I watch as much Jets games as I can and that is well over half when work doesn't get in the way. I watch about 15-20 Canucks games and playoffs because well, they are right there, in front of your face, can't help it. I am shocked Quinn Hughes never came up in conversation but more on that later.

I find Detroit and Buffalo to be fascinating teams. I find how they have drafted and built their teams to be just awesome. The pieces they have assembled blow my mind. I am a huge fan of their prospect pools and young players. Its like walking down the street and observing the best looking woaman you have ever seen, salt to taste, and not being able to turn away.

Also, envy is a massive factor here for me too. I was reviewing my Winnipeg Jets young stars tournament roster and was all happy about Colby Barlow, Braydon Yager blah blah blah. Then I saw the defence. Outside Elias Salomonsson the defence was absolute complete trash. I would trade most, if not all, of my family members away to have names like Seider, Ericsson, Sandin-Pellika, Dahlen, Power and Byrum on my team. My brain would explode.

So, how much have I seen Dahlen or Seider play, not a lot, single digit viewings for both players, but I have watched hours of highlights on YouTube. I know, bad bad way to scout players, Guilty as charged.

So when I realized Seider's contract had yet to be signed I wondered if this would be possible. However, I didn't put the proposal through in a vacuum. The real reason as I reflect is an issue around balance. With Dahlen, Power and Byron all on the left (this was before I read feedback about Dahlen's play on the right) I wondered how Buffalo was going to structure their defence. Because before any of these young superstrars elevate their games they need strong partners. Cale Makar has Devin Toews, Quinn Hughes has Filip Hronek. Evan Bouchard has Aron Ekholm. Seider is not going to improve until he gets a better partner than Walman. So I wondered how on God's green earth is Buffalo going to get real partners for these wonderful d-men? How will they be supported to succeed or be stuck carrying around trash beside them for God knows how many years. Bowen Byrum was tried on his right side and failed. I don't think Owen Power is ready to do that, hence the thought of getting the right handed Seider on Buffalo's right side. Also, Power, Dahlen and Byron aren't physical d-men in the Seider way, so a fairly soft team like Buffalo would benefit in that way. I thought that perhaps, the offensive upside lost by Dahlen leaving would make them better in playoffs because of what Seider brings to the table and how everyone is on their preferred side and maximizes their ice time. Another guy that would help you greatly would be Rasmus Andersson. Different trade proposal for another time.

SO, I learned that Sabres fans here would strongly disagree with the assessment Dahlen is limited to his left side and does not play physical. The highlight packages I saw, and I found some 20 minute plus long, showed him making plays from equally the left and right sides of the ice.

Now ideally, surely Sabres fans can't argue with this, is the best way for Dahlen to move forward is for him to play on the side he performs best at, and then gets him a high end partner to play with for a long time. Maybe Samuelson, Jokijarju, or Clifton is that guy but they aren't Toews, Ekholm or Hornet that's for sure. Once the Dahlen issue is settled, then you can get Power and Byrum settled in on their best sides. I think you could create a defensive group that could be one of the best in NHL history. I think your group could be that good. Seriously.

Detroit has better balance and it would be tempting for them given how much offence Dahlin could provide them. However, even in the Lidstrom glory days they had a bruiser like Kronwall, although Ericsson could be their physical guy.

I would like to see what the analytics guys say about Dahlen on the left vs Dahlen on the right, that would be very interesting.

Clearly Sabres fans who watch him day after day have strong opinions and I had no idea he was as highly thought of in your market as he is.

Although I did not watch a ton of Sabres games I did last summer watch a few hours of Sabres off ice programming because I was curious about what their personalities were off the ice. This was before they had their disappointing season last year. The young guys were followed around playing golf and then going back to Dahlen's place and playing video games. Personality wise I found them reserved for young people. Certainly no one presented themselves as strong enough to challenge the room to play better in rough times. I saw features on Alex Tuch and Kyle Okposo and they were quite serious about improving the team but whatever they said fell on deaf ears. It appeared the team really needed more veterans. Take that for what it's worth as this is an observation made from far far away through promo material.

Quick thought on Quinn Hughes, him and Makar are the best 2 d in the league, Hughes is such an incredible skater he can twist and turn past any forechecker in the league without much effort. It's unreal to watch. No one, even Dahlen, has that skill. When you have that skill, you don't need to be big or have a booming shot or lay out guys with bodychecks. His skating is from another planet.

I am a Jets fan and its not easy giving Canucks players praise, because this city is filled with west coast douchebags like you wouldn't believe, so this is painful praise I am giving here.

I know missing the playoffs for so long is incredibly frustrating, but you are on the precipice of something really big. Don't lose sight of that fact. Now that you have Zach Benson you're in even better shape. I hope your management can fill in the right supporting cast.
You haven’t noticed yet, that everyone else in here is spelling it Dahlin not Dahlen.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Fatass

Fatass

Registered User
Apr 17, 2017
23,966
15,673
No way the Sabres do this. I like Seider, but Dahlin is special. And in no way in the Dobson/Bouchard tier of defenseman. Both good players, but I’d rate Dahlin right behind the best of the best group: Makar, Fox, Q. Hughes (assuming no massive regression from him), Dahlin is in the argument for the 4-5 spot for me with guys like Josi.

Seider is good, but calling him a top 2-3 defenseman in the league next season is a tremendous stretch unless you think a 25 year old Makar, 26 year old Fox, and 24 year old Q. Hughes all retire, suffer major career-altering injuries, or have the biggest statistical declines for superstar players in their mid 20s in history. If anything, it’s Dahlin who’s next up to crack that category if one falters.
Got to disagree. Seider is the guy who is going to move into the top tier of D. Dahlin has been in the league a long time and still hasn’t figured out his defensive game. To be considered in the top tier a D man must be defensively sound.
 

Czechboy

Češi do toho!
Apr 15, 2018
27,503
24,749
This is some sensational wording. “One of the greatest performing defensemen of this generation offensively. ”

lol. He’s had exactly ONE elite offensive year, and he still only finished 4th in points for defensemen.

Yet he’s somehow one of the greatest of this generation.

What an absolutely wild statement
I'm a big Bouch fan and tend to agree with most of your statement. However..

He's only had one full NHL sesaon. His rookie year he was behind Barrie. Since Barrie was traded... Bouch has been extremely dominant offensively (yes, I know about the D warts).

Since the Barrie trade:

He has 49 points in 37 PLAYOFF games (that's first for that timeframe)

1725810674448.png


His regular season points since Barrie was traded on February 28th

1725810770521.png


He's third and keeping some damn good company!

Also, that is 101 regular season and 37 playoff games combined for 150 points in 138 games. That is also first for playoffs and regular season games the last 2 seasons.

Obviously they don't hand out awards for 'since when Barrie was traded'. But guys like me who follow the Oilers and Bouch closesly have been staring at a .ppg for awhile now. It is a night and day difference before and after that trade. He finished 2 seasons ago around .ppg, he had 2 playoff runs around a .ppg and then he had a full regular season around a .ppg.

But yes, he needs to do it a few more regular seasons. It'll be interesting to revisit this at the end of this regular season.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Fatass

Nocashstyle

HFBoards Sponsor
Sponsor
May 27, 2009
8,021
8,592
NJ
I'm a big Bouch fan and tend to agree with most of your statement. However..

He's only had one full NHL sesaon. His rookie year he was behind Barrie. Since Barrie was traded... Bouch has been extremely dominant offensively (yes, I know about the D warts).

Since the Barrie trade:

He has 49 points in 37 PLAYOFF games (that's first for that timeframe)

View attachment 905779

His regular season points since Barrie was traded on February 28th

View attachment 905781

He's third and keeping some damn good company!

Also, that is 101 regular season and 37 playoff games combined for 150 points in 138 games. That is also first for playoffs and regular season games the last 2 seasons.

Obviously they don't hand out awards for 'since when Barrie was traded'. But guys like me who follow the Oilers and Bouch closesly have been staring at a .ppg for awhile now. It is a night and day difference before and after that trade. He finished 2 seasons ago around .ppg, he had 2 playoff runs around a .ppg and then he had a full regular season around a .ppg.

But yes, he needs to do it a few more regular seasons. It'll be interesting to revisit this at the end of this regular season.

Don’t get me wrong, I do think he’s elite offensively. I have no reason to doubt that he’s going to continue to be one of the top producing defensemen in the league. That said, calling him one of the “greatest of this generation” is way too sensational at this point.
 

Czechboy

Češi do toho!
Apr 15, 2018
27,503
24,749
Don’t get me wrong, I do think he’s elite offensively. I have no reason to doubt that he’s going to continue to be one of the top producing defensemen in the league. That said, calling him one of the “greatest of this generation” is way too sensational at this point.
Agree.

Curious what players are considered to be in 'this generation' as well. He comes from one of the stronger draft classes that I can think of for D.

1725812803656.png


And despite 'after Barrie' he will have a lot of work to be the top point getter in his own draft year! I'll go on a limb and say that won't even happen.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Guy Tetreault

saska sault

Registered User
Jun 5, 2010
4,424
3,664
Sault Ste. Marie
Buffalo says no. I think Sieder hasnt had the same opportunities as Dahlin as we had Ghost and others takin up the PP1 spots and he has had some brutal partners through the last few years. Its not out of the question for Moritz to match Dahlins year, two seasons ago of 70ish points but until he has done that. Its purely hope on potential. Sieder is a different player and brings a different game so strictly looking at the stat sheet does not give a proper evaluation of how valuable both are.
 

Dfence033

Registered User
Nov 24, 2009
1,296
792
Texas
Got to disagree. Seider is the guy who is going to move into the top tier of D. Dahlin has been in the league a long time and still hasn’t figured out his defensive game. To be considered in the top tier a D man must be defensively sound.

You do realize they were drafted exactly one draft class apart, right? Dahlin has been in the league “a long time,” because his team (and many, many scouts) felt he was ready enough to play in the NHL immediately. His defensive game isn’t Slavin, but he’s far from bad defensively. It’s equally easy to say: “To be a top defenseman, you have to be offensively great.” Seider has yet to hit double digit goals or >50 points in a season. Dahlin has done that 3 consecutive years, despite missing parts of 2 seasons because of COVID since he’s been drafted - one of which he was well ahead of that pace in.

I like Seider a lot, but unless he transforms into Roman Josi next season, he’s not the same caliber player as Dahlin, who older by 1 year (minus 6 days), but is being dinged for “being in the league for a long time.” He’s 24. Being in the league a long time at his age is a tremendous accomplishment, not a detriment.
 

Drew4u

Registered User
Jul 22, 2016
1,685
611
Seider has the biggest gap between defensive reputation and actual results. He got caved in his own end last season

This is so true. Sure he gets tough usage and matchups but there aren't any real reasons to believe he's any good defensively.

I also find it funny how Bouchard who was the best defencemen last year gets hate since he plays with Mcdavid but Draisaitl who had a worse year than Bouchard in every statisticsl measure gets the "pass".
 
  • Haha
Reactions: TS Quint

Oddbob

Registered User
Jan 21, 2016
16,723
11,289
Seider has the biggest gap between defensive reputation and actual results. He got caved in his own end last season

Got caved! Give me a break! Your opinion has proven completely useless by your own wording.
 

TS Quint

Stop writing “I mean” in your posts.
Sep 8, 2012
8,600
6,145
You haven’t noticed yet, that everyone else in here is spelling it Dahlin not Dahlen.
Thank the lord your are here to be a spell checker because that is what is most important on a hockey board.
 

MTL Dirty Birdy

Registered User
Aug 29, 2021
1,358
1,548
There’s a very good bet, by the time Seider hits 25, he’ll be one of the Top 2-3 Dmen in the game. He has one of the most well rounded games and he’s very hard to play against. That last part is what’s gonna put him over the top. Just imagine how much better he’ll continue to get, as that D-Core rounds out over the next 2 years.

You just don’t trade 23 year old Dmen like that. Just like you don’t trade 24 year old Dmen like Dahlin. You build around them. If Edvinsson keeps taking a lot of the pressure off Seider, as he did those last 18-20 games last season, it’ll open up Seider’s game too. He’s gonna be a 50+ point Dman consistently. Like Power has helped take pressure off Dahlin.

Not sure people realize how much they ask of that kid every night. It’s been like “hey, you get Matthews tonight, Kucherov tomorrow and Barkov the next day.” All with having to play with Jake Walman passing the puck (below the circles) to his imaginary friend 10 times a night.

People are gonna be very surprised btw, how bad Jake Walman is without Seider. SJ has nobody to cover for that madness.

So as a Dman, I’d take Seider between the two, but it’s a no-win answer. I’m just more old school and like my Dmen to play with an imposing edge. That takes nothing away from Dahlin. He’s had a 70 point season already. Whether he’s more the 50-60 point Dman or can be 65+, we’ll see.

People can argue back and forth. There’s no right answer today. One thing’s for sure though….

The Atlantic is going to have 3-4 monster blue lines in 2-3 years. Like 5-6 deep. Detroit’s gonna have at least four or five 6’4”- 6’6” dmen with ASP. Buffalo and Ottawa are building something as well. Not to mention if Montreal’s group ends up being anywhere near what some think it could be. Might not be as physical as the others, but we’ll see. A ton will depend on Reinbacher. If he can be anything like Sanderson, Seider, Dahlin, Power and what it looks like Edvinsson is, they’ll be a force as well. If he’s a bust, they’ll have some work to do.

The Atlantic over the next decade, is gonna be a blood bath.
Montreals Dcorps will be very physical.
Guhle-6’3” 215
Reinbacher 6’4” 215
Mailloux 6’3” 220
Xhekaj- 6’4” 230
Struble 6’ 205 (gym rat who is a physical freak and plays with anger)

I’m hard pressed to see many Dcorps in the league under 25 that look like that

He has shown nothing to be above either of them

Both had significantly better years and Bouchard is the one of the greatest performing defenseman of this generation offensively.

Dahlin doesn't get a pass for the sabres failure just like other stars dont get a pass for their teams failures

He hasnt been close to what was expected and despite that still a top 10ishD which shows he has a huge ceiling

He needs to put it all together. The tools and talent is there to be a norris winner and yearly contender but he is entering his prime now, if he cant deliver in the next 3 or 4 seasons then he wont be able to live up to his talent.

He needs to be a two way force that gives ~75-80 pts and helos the sabres make deep runs. He makes insane money for what he brings at the moment at 11.5M, has to break out to justify that deal
Having watched Sabres games, Dahlin is the real deal. I feel he is delivering… the question is how many Sabres forwards are sucking bad and grossly underperforming for what they’re paid
 

MTL Dirty Birdy

Registered User
Aug 29, 2021
1,358
1,548
Got to disagree. Seider is the guy who is going to move into the top tier of D. Dahlin has been in the league a long time and still hasn’t figured out his defensive game. To be considered in the top tier a D man must be defensively sound.
I suspect when Karlsson was a force with Ottawa a lot of people would have debated you on that. Makar is often covered by Toews as well. Certain elite offensive D can simply tip the scales regardless of lesser D
 
  • Like
Reactions: Guy Tetreault

GOALOFSSON

Game Changer
Jun 6, 2018
2,590
1,859
Aspland
Look at his norris finishes, pt finishes and watch him play, he is no defensive d-man. He controls offense very well but he gets burned defensively and isnt a shut-down d-man like a Slavin, Chris Tanev (prime not now), Ryan McDonaugh

Ofcourse his offensive skillset is >> than most shutdown D-mans skills and he is probably the 8th to 10th best D in the league right now. That is a far cry frim 1B to Makar whose rookie season is probably better than Dahlins peak so far in 2023

Hughes
Bouchard
Dobson

Are three guys from his draft class (believe all from 2018) he needs to show he is better than

Before

Makar
Fox
Hedman
Heiskinen

Come up

You are one of the few posters I have seen overrate Dahlin so highly these past few years

1This isnt 2018, he clearly is not a generational player now in his 7th NHL year

Not sure what games you're watching but he isn't bad defensively, and if we look at pts it only helps his case.

From his draft you could argue Hughes now but not the other two. Hedman isn't really with these guys anymore.

Could see why some would prefer Makar or Fox for now. I'll take the guy who was steadily 2nd in D scoring for the first 60+ games as a 22yo, behind only Karlsson going on his run. Followed it up by leading his team in points as a 23yo.


There are reasons why the Sabres are bad and have been for Dahlin’s entire time there. He eats a lot of minutes but (as you point out) the club struggles defensively when he’s on the ice.
IMO Dahlin ranks below those D men you listed from his draft. He isn’t even top 10 (especially considering his contract) at this time. If this trade was offered I think Yzerman is the one to hang up. Seider looks like he’s going to grow into being a more complete player. And teams win with complete players, especially on D.

None of those reasons are Dahlin related though... and we certainly don't struggle defensively with him on the ice.

I can't see how Seider looks to grow into a more complete player. He's only slightly younger, not really better defensively or physically. Large offensive gap.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jeremy2020

tsujimoto74

Moderator
May 28, 2012
30,660
23,480
I suspect when Karlsson was a force with Ottawa a lot of people would have debated you on that. Makar is often covered by Toews as well. Certain elite offensive D can simply tip the scales regardless of lesser D

Dahlin ain’t no Karlsson. There’s no aspect of hockey that he’s not elite at. He’s the complete package in terms of offensive skill and creativity, defensive instinct, and grit/physicality. He’s one of the most well-rounded defensemen in the league right now (that poster just doesn’t have a clue what he’s talking about).
 

Mattilaus

Registered User
Sep 12, 2014
7,816
6,559
Beyond the Wall
Not going to weigh in on the debate because I feel like everything has been said and nobody is changing any minds here.


BUT......it is DAHLIN. Not Dalhen, not Dahlia, Dahlin.
 

hamzarocks

Registered User
Jul 22, 2012
21,657
15,277
Pickering, Ontario
Dahlin ain’t no Karlsson. There’s no aspect of hockey that he’s not elite at. He’s the complete package in terms of offensive skill and creativity, defensive instinct, and grit/physicality. He’s one of the most well-rounded defensemen in the league right now (that poster just doesn’t have a clue what he’s talking about).
Beyond delusional

There is no aspect of hockey he is better than Norris Karlsson at

Your comment is pure homerism.

Dahlin just came outside the top 10 for norris. To pretend he is some force of player that isnt found in the NHL is hilarious
 

MTL Dirty Birdy

Registered User
Aug 29, 2021
1,358
1,548
Dahlin ain’t no Karlsson. There’s no aspect of hockey that he’s not elite at. He’s the complete package in terms of offensive skill and creativity, defensive instinct, and grit/physicality. He’s one of the most well-rounded defensemen in the league right now (that poster just doesn’t have a clue what he’s talking about).
I would say he is elite on his skates. His edge work is amazing. Also, wait until he’s 28. Karlssons best years came in his mid to late 20s.
 

Mattilaus

Registered User
Sep 12, 2014
7,816
6,559
Beyond the Wall
Beyond delusional

There is no aspect of hockey he is better than Norris Karlsson at

Your comment is pure homerism.

Dahlin just came outside the top 10 for norris. To pretend he is some force of player that isnt found in the NHL is hilarious
So Karlsson is more physical?
 

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad