Proposal: Rasmus Dahlin For Moritz Seider

[Fatass]

Seider has some of the worst defensive analytics in the NHL. Everyone says he has a brutal deployment. They are correct.

But what’s also correct is that if MacKinnon and Rantanan put up a combined seven points in a night Seider is a -2 and Corsi for of 18%, how does that make Seider somehow good defensively?

It doesn’t. It just tells you Seider can’t handle the hard minutes his coaching staff is forcing him to skate.

And even considering your points there are many who prefer Seider to Dahlin. Because Seider has, what these people see, as the higher ceiling: especially defensively.

 

[norrisnick]

Seider has some of the worst defensive analytics in the NHL. Everyone says he has a brutal deployment. They are correct.

But what’s also correct is that if MacKinnon and Rantanan put up a combined seven points in a night Seider is a -2 and Corsi for of 18%, how does that make Seider somehow good defensively?

It doesn’t. It just tells you Seider can’t handle the hard minutes his coaching staff is forcing him to skate.

He handled the minutes just fine 2 weeks prior when the Wings still had their #1 center.

 

[BFLO]

Seider is 358 days younger than Dahlin. All this talk of how much Seider is still going to grow in comparison to Dahlin is laughable. And all of the "toughest deployment" excuse for Seider's bad stats reminds me more of another Buffalo Rasmus who now plays for Philly.

Dahlin's defensive struggles have been greatly exaggerated throughout his career. He's only had 2 negative xEVD seasons in his career, in his 2nd and 3rd seasons and neither were that bad, -0.3 and -0.9 respectively.

He had a bad habit of getting posterized in other players highlight reels, but in the aggregate he was never awful like his reputation.

Seider's best xGAR season would only be Dahlin's 5th best. Seider's other 2 seasons are worse than any by Dahlin.

Dahlin has also been ever so slightly above average on the PK over his career. Seider has been horrific.

 

[BFLO]

If the sabres and dahlin dont take that next step this year its time to face reality and accept that he isnt a franchise player and the sabres cant develop prospects into quality NHLers

Just like Eichel, Reinhart, RoR, Montour, Ullmark etc....

The problem is that the Sabres are great at developing and acquiring talent. They just can't put a whole team together or get the talent to want to stay.

 

[McJedi]

He handled the minutes just fine 2 weeks prior when the Wings still had their #1 center.

as the Wings have put consistently better forward around Seider the past two years, his analytical performances have declined. He was a better player as rookie than he was as a 3rd year pro. As his teammates (forward groupings anyway) got better, Seider has stagnated.

After his rookie year, Seider was rightly in the top 10 list of NhL defenders. Now he’s 20th on the recent one NHL.com did and many of us know he’s not even that. He’s frankly has no business on that list based on his play last year.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

as the Wings have put consistently better forward around Seider the past two years, his analytical performances have declined. He was a better player as rookie than he was as a 3rd year pro. As his teammates (forward groupings anyway) got better, Seider has stagnated.

After his rookie year, Seider was rightly in the top 10 list of NhL defenders. Now he’s 20th on the recent one NHL.com did and many of us know he’s not even that. He’s frankly has no business on that list based on his play last year.

It's almost like he's getting tougher assignments...

 

[norrisnick]

as the Wings have put consistently better forward around Seider the past two years, his analytical performances have declined. He was a better player as rookie than he was as a 3rd year pro. As his teammates (forward groupings anyway) got better, Seider has stagnated.

After his rookie year, Seider was rightly in the top 10 list of NhL defenders. Now he’s 20th on the recent one NHL.com did and many of us know he’s not even that. He’s frankly has no business on that list based on his play last year.

You could have just said that up front and saved everyone a bunch of time. Laughable to say the very least.

 

[McJedi]

It's almost like he's getting tougher assignments...

And losing them night after night. How’s that an achievement? Seider plays badly vs great players. I fully understand this.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

It's almost like he's getting tougher assignments...

While also playing a lot of overtime with 3rd and 4th line forwards. It’s not like he’s only out there when Larkin was out.

 

[McJedi]

You could have just said that up front and saved everyone a bunch of time. Laughable to say the very least.

I know Seiders poor analytics make you big mad but I’m just regurgitating what’s there for you to see and evaluate.

You feel free to keep shooting blindly from the hip with red tinted glasses making it impossible for you to see clearly.

Dahlin is currently a much better NHL player than Seider. Mo has a long way to go before he’s playing at the same level night in and night out.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

And losing them night after night. How’s that an achievement? Seider plays badly vs great players. I fully understand this.

Your argument was that his play declined while ignoring that he was getting tougher assignments.

This isn't that difficult to understand. He's getting f***ed considerably harder than just about any other defender in the league.

 

[FlyguyOX]

Seider is so overrated. The idea of this proposal is nonsensical.

As Detroit has improved its roster talent the past two seasons, Seider’s game has regressed.

He’s been horrible defensively, another narrative about him that’s wrong. That he’s some defensive stalwart when he’s anything but.

What Seider is? He is better offensively than he’s given credit for and his offensive upside is higher than some projections in this thread.

But comparing him to Dahlin in a trade proposal is absurd. Seider still has a long way to go to be in Dahlin’s company as a top NHL defender.

Ironic considering Dahlin's defense has been largely poor for most of his career.

Seider hasn't regressed. He's had piss poor usage and coaching (he's been saddled with crappy linemates outside of Walman who they decided to trade for some reason).

Someone very clearly never watches the wings play.

This isn't that difficult to understand. He's getting f***ed considerably harder than just about any other defender in the league.

Ever. Not just last year. Historically.

 

[Gordon Lightfoot]

Prime Bobby Orr and Prime Nick Lindstrom. Those are the 2 players I take over Dahlin. Cale Makar is not as good defensively and I’d love to see what Dahlin/Makar would do if they switched teams offensively.

Sieder can’t tie Dahlins skates. Dahlin and Makar are in a league of their own.

Ps- I’m a leafs fan who hates the Sabres.

You cannot be serious.

 

[McJedi]

Ironic considering Dahlin's defense has been largely poor for most of his career.

Seider hasn't regressed. He's had piss poor usage and coaching (he's been saddled with crappy linemates outside of Walman who they decided to trade for some reason).

Someone very clearly never watches the wings play.


Ever. Not just last year. Historically.

The excuse machine for Seider is always in full swing for those that pretend he's among the very best RHD to enter the NHL in decades.

That's the funny thing too. With Josi, Hughes, Makar, Fox, Hedman, Dahlin... the good NHL defenders... We can talk about all the ways they impact the game positively. Talk about the many things they do well on a game to game basis. Their stats and analytics are impressive.

With Seider? Nope. Instead, these conversations start with excuses getting made for his horrible analytics. We don't talk about the good things he does because he doesn't do enough good things vs the even better opposing players that are besting Mo night after night. Just make more excuses that point the fingers at the coaches, the players and for the brave few.. the sacrosanct GM. Your post. 100% excuses and finger pointing.

I'm pointing the finger it at Seider too. I'm suggesting Seider plays a role in his poor defensive analytics.

 

[junyab]

Who cares who's better. Both teams are happy with their star dman.

 

[FlyguyOX]

The excuse machine for Seider is always in full swing for those that pretend he's among the very best RHD to enter the NHL in decades.

That's the funny thing too. With Josi, Hughes, Makar, Fox, Hedman, Dahlin... the good NHL defenders... We can talk about all the ways they impact the game positively. Talk about the many things they do well on a game to game basis. Their stats and analytics are impressive.

With Seider? Nope. Instead, these conversations start with excuses getting made for his horrible analytics. We don't talk about the good things he does because he doesn't do enough good things vs the even better opposing players that are besting Mo night after night. Just make more excuses that point the fingers at the coaches, the players and for the brave few.. the sacrosanct GM. Your post. 100% excuses and finger pointing.

I'm pointing the finger it at Seider too. I'm suggesting Seider plays a role in his poor defensive analytics.

No, I'm suggesting your argument starts with numbers instead of what you've actually watched and seen which is the issue.

 

[McJedi]

No, I'm suggesting your argument starts with numbers instead of what you've actually watched and seen which is the issue.

You, me, no fan watches Seider on the ice every shift even when the puck is 100 feet away. We're just fans watching on TV or in person. And some games you miss for X reason. Others you're drunk, feeling sick from taco bell or had an edible.

You know who does watch Seider that much... follows his every shift and every moment and stack it against his peers and opponents. Analytics.

I won't accept your amateur's eye test as proof he's playing incredible hockey and don't believe the analytics because they lie.

 

[norrisnick]

I know Seiders poor analytics make you big mad but I’m just regurgitating what’s there for you to see and evaluate.

You feel free to keep shooting blindly from the hip with red tinted glasses making it impossible for you to see clearly.

Dahlin is currently a much better NHL player than Seider. Mo has a long way to go before he’s playing at the same level night in and night out.

I don't give two shits about analytics, my dude. I pull up the QoC chart and articles written by the guys that designed the analytics pointing out the Seider breaks their models when the regular analytics fiesta pops off, but that's about it. You've been hyper-salty about Seider since no one wanted to join you on the BoBo Bandwagon.

I'm perfectly content with the vastly inferior Seider on the Wings. And that burns you up inside for whatever weird reason...

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

You, me, no fan watches Seider on the ice every shift even when the puck is 100 feet away. We're just fans watching on TV or in person. And some games you miss for X reason. Others you're drunk, feeling sick from taco bell or had an edible.

You know who does watch Seider that much... follows his every shift and every moment and stack it against his peers and opponents. Analytics.

I won't accept your amateur's eye test as proof he's playing incredible hockey and don't believe the analytics because they lie.

Weird that the two teams who dove head first into analytics based management have both failed tremendously...

 

[McJedi]

I don't give two shits about analytics, my dude. I pull up the QoC chart and articles written by the guys that designed the analytics pointing out the Seider breaks their models when the regular analytics fiesta pops off, but that's about it. You've been hyper-salty about Seider since no one wanted to join you on the BoBo Bandwagon.

I'm perfectly content with the vastly inferior Seider on the Wings. And that burns you up inside for whatever weird reason...

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Ah.. the capitulation. Analytics mean nothing when it comes to Seider and only Seider. That's a new excuse. Bravo.

I've had plenty of fun seeing Detroit become an irrelevant NHL team. A club that doesn't matter in the NHL right now and is generally forgotten.

And no... still haven't made the case that Seider has the same value as Dalhin, but saying analytics don't apply to Seider was at least creative in humoring us.

 

[Sasha Orlov]

Seider is by far the most well rounded of the 2 but does not have Dahlin's offensive potential.

That’s just not true

 

[McJedi]

Weird that the two teams who dove head first into analytics based management have both failed tremendously...

Most teams use analytics today. I can't finger one that doesn't. Can you?

The Avs use them extensively and they've been good. Dallas uses them extensively. With success. Tampa does and it has been a success.

 

[FlyguyOX]

You, me, no fan watches Seider on the ice every shift even when the puck is 100 feet away. We're just fans watching on TV or in person. And some games you miss for X reason. Others you're drunk, feeling sick from taco bell or had an edible.

You know who does watch Seider that much... follows his every shift and every moment and stack it against his peers and opponents. Analytics.

I won't accept your amateur's eye test as proof he's playing incredible hockey and don't believe the analytics because they lie.

I am a huge analytics proponent and user fwiw. I also watched a ton of the red wings games past couple seasons. I see a guy who has to consistently play ridiculously conservative because his inept linemates are ridiculously aggressive (first Chiarot - Good God is he terrible and just a dumb player, and then Walman who actually looked somewhat competent).

It's all coaching, there. Seider has shown impressive passing ability and ability to get shots on net on PP but still wont be given PP1.

All this is to say is that coaching and team dynamics are holding him back a lot. He won't ever skate like Dahlin, but he can make a total impact on a game fairly equal to Dahlin if given the chance.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

Most teams use analytics today. I can't finger one that doesn't. Can you?

The Avs use them extensively and they've been good. Dallas uses them extensively. With success. Tampa does and it has been a success.

What part of "Dove in head first" wasn't clear? There's a difference between reviewing analytics and treating it like it's the gospel.

Even Dom Lusczyznzyznsyznsyznsn took a break from praying to his Dubas idol to note how Seider's analytics were deceiving.

 

[BFLO]

Ironic considering Dahlin's defense has been largely poor for most of his career.

Seider hasn't regressed. He's had piss poor usage and coaching (he's been saddled with crappy linemates outside of Walman who they decided to trade for some reason).

Someone very clearly never watches the wings play.


Ever. Not just last year. Historically.

re: bolded

Source?