Rumor: Rantanen Extension is Close???

[NOTENOUGHRYJOTHINGS]

Pasta scores more without getting to play with a MacK or Maker level player.

Pasta better defensively by a mile.

Pasta is in another tier compared to Rantanen.

 

[LOFIN]

Pasta scores more without getting to play with a MacK or Maker level player.

Pasta better defensively by a mile.

Pasta is in another tier compared to Rantanen.

No, he's not. Probably one of the stupidest claims I've seen on HFBoards, and that includes Leaf fans claiming Matthews is better than McDavid.

I'm fine with having the discussion of who is better. And while I personally like Rantanen more, I can admit that it's Avs/Finnish bias and when you boil it down to a tee most people will probably lean on the side of Pasta. For me, Pastrnak and Rantanen are probably the closest pair to compare among star players in this league. Pick any two centers, any two wingers, any two defencemen, there will be a bigger gap between the two than with Pastrnak and Rantanen.

They are absolutely in the same tier of player. Rantanen should ask more than Pastrnak, because his deal is going to kick in two years later in a rising cap world. It's not really that difficult to comprehend.

 

[willy702]

No, he's not. Probably one of the stupidest claims I've seen on HFBoards, and that includes Leaf fans claiming Matthews is better than McDavid.

I'm fine with having the discussion of who is better. And while I personally like Rantanen more, I can admit that it's Avs/Finnish bias and when you boil it down to a tee most people will probably lean on the side of Pasta. For me, Pastrnak and Rantanen are probably the closest pair to compare among star players in this league. Pick any two centers, any two wingers, any two defencemen, there will be a bigger gap between the two than with Pastrnak and Rantanen.

They are absolutely in the same tier of player. Rantanen should ask more than Pastrnak, because his deal is going to kick in two years later in a rising cap world. It's not really that difficult to comprehend.

No GM in the world would support your argument here. Traditional stats, advanced stats, 5v5 stats...its not that close, Pasta is better. Mack was a better comparable to Pasta until Nate went off last year. Mikko's an elite player, top 30 or so but Pasta and Nate are top 10 and there should be a difference in the pay.

 

[LOFIN]

No GM in the world would support your argument here. Traditional stats, advanced stats, 5v5 stats...its not that close, Pasta is better. Mack was a better comparable to Pasta until Nate went off last year. Mikko's an elite player, top 30 or so but Pasta and Nate are top 10 and there should be a difference in the pay.

So are you suggesting that Pastrnak is actually a 13 million player or what? What do you think the difference between Mikko and Pasta should be if they both signed TODAY?

 

[willy702]

So are you suggesting that Pastrnak is actually a 13 million player or what? What do you think the difference between Mikko and Pasta should be if they both signed TODAY?

I'd say Pasta at 13.5 and Mikko at 11.0 on a Matthews like contract that left some prime years at the end. Heck I'd say more than Matthews but I think the Loafs panicked and gave AM too much.

 

[22FUTON9]

Pasta is definitely better than Rantanen but he’s not on a “different level” compared to Mikko. Those probably only apply to like 5 or 6 players and I don’t think Pasta’s one of them.

I get the frustration with Mikko, but letting him walk IMO would just be a huge mistake, even if we had to pay him Mack money

 

[willy702]

Pasta is definitely better than Rantanen but he’s not on a “different level” compared to Mikko. Those probably only apply to like 5 or 6 players and I don’t think Pasta’s one of them.

I get the frustration with Mikko, but letting him walk IMO would just be a huge mistake, even if we had to pay him Mack money

That's why you trade him instead of letting him walk IF you don't think you can sign him. I don't think anyone should be frustrated with Mikko, he produces the numbers he does pretty consistently and should be paid a lot of money for that. Its just that giving him say 1.5m more AAV than you should is actually more consequential than it seems. That's been the Loafs thinking here, give everyone market and even market + deals and now look at how they have to consider shedding a good player like Marner or Nylander just to make it work in the future.

 

[22FUTON9]

That's why you trade him instead of letting him walk IF you don't think you can sign him. I don't think anyone should be frustrated with Mikko, he produces the numbers he does pretty consistently and should be paid a lot of money for that. Its just that giving him say 1.5m more AAV than you should is actually more consequential than it seems. That's been the Loafs thinking here, give everyone market and even market + deals and now look at how they have to consider shedding a good player like Marner or Nylander just to make it work in the future.

Unlike the leafs we’re never going to be a situation where we’re using 50% of our salary to 4 players though. Frankly I think the leafs really got f***ed by COVID and the flat cap, even more so than all the other teams which is why they’re in the position they’re in right now. I don’t see us being in that situation even if we end up overpaying Mikko, especially with the cap going up.

The way I see it, we’re in a much worse situation if we let Mikko go (unless we sign draisaitl or something) than if we overpaid Mikko by a bit. Rantanen’s a top 10 (maybe even a top 5) winger, and it’s going to be essential impossible to replace him if we let him go.

 

[The Abusement Park]

No GM in the world would support your argument here. Traditional stats, advanced stats, 5v5 stats...it’s not that close, Pasta is better. Mack was a better comparable to Pasta until Nate went off last year. Mikko's an elite player, top 30 or so but Pasta and Nate are top 10 and there should be a difference in the pay.

I mean the difference in advanced stats and traditional stats is basically nothing between Mikko and Pasta. Since 21-22 Pasta has 300pts in 236 games. Mikko has 301pts in 237 games.

The biggest difference between the two is playoffs where Mikko has 14 more points in 9 less games played.

I think taking Pasta over Mikko is a valid take, but there's absolutely nothing the clearly points to one player being in a different tier than the other. Both are fringe top 10 players at the moment.

 

[The Abusement Park]

Unlike the leafs we’re never going to be a situation where we’re using 50% of our salary to 4 players though. Frankly I think the leafs really got f***ed by COVID and the flat cap, even more so than all the other teams which is why they’re in the position they’re in right now. I don’t see us being in that situation even if we end up overpaying Mikko, especially with the cap going up.

The way I see it, we’re in a much worse situation if we let Mikko go (unless we sign draisaitl or something) than if we overpaid Mikko by a bit. Rantanen’s a top 10 (maybe even a top 5) winger, and it’s going to be essential impossible to replace him if we let him go.

Yeah but our top 5(6 if Nuke comes back) players take up a very significant chunk of cap. Not quite as serious as the big 4 in Toronto but still causing clear issues going forwards.

 

[John Mandalorian]

I'd say Pasta at 13.5 and Mikko at 11.0 on a Matthews like contract that left some prime years at the end. Heck I'd say more than Matthews but I think the Loafs panicked and gave AM too much.

Absurd. In no variation of this universe is Pasta more valuable than MacKinnon. Absolutely laughable. Nice clown shoes.

 

[willy702]

Absurd. In no variation of this universe is Pasta more valuable than MacKinnon. Absolutely laughable. Nice clown shoes.

What Nate got paid is his and the teams business. Nate should make as much or more than Matthews wouldn't you say?

 

[expatriatedtexan]

Unlike the leafs we’re never going to be a situation where we’re using 50% of our salary to 4 players though. Frankly I think the leafs really got f***ed by COVID and the flat cap, even more so than all the other teams which is why they’re in the position they’re in right now. I don’t see us being in that situation even if we end up overpaying Mikko, especially with the cap going up.

The way I see it, we’re in a much worse situation if we let Mikko go (unless we sign draisaitl or something) than if we overpaid Mikko by a bit. Rantanen’s a top 10 (maybe even a top 5) winger, and it’s going to be essential impossible to replace him if we let him go.

I really think this is a fallicy.

15.27% - MacKinnon
11.35% - Rantanen
11.04% - Makar
37.66% on three players

Now add any one of the four from the below and regardless whose picked we are at 45%+ on 4 players:
07.42% - Nichushkin
08.59% - Landeskog
08.68% - Toews

It might not be 50% today, but only MacK and whoever was chosen from the above are being paid as UFAs. Rants and Makar will be asking for signficant cap percentage increases. Enough for a combined 5% between them? I'd say it's inevitable.

[edit... I'm relying on public education and cap percentages from capwages.com. Please be gentle.]

 

[John Mandalorian]

What Nate got paid is his and the teams business. Nate should make as much or more than Matthews wouldn't you say?

Your logic is broken.

 

[Vaslof]

I really think this is a fallicy.

15.27% - MacKinnon
11.35% - Rantanen
11.04% - Makar
37.66% on three players

Now add any one of the four from the below and regardless whose picked we are at 45%+ on 4 players:
07.42% - Nichushkin
08.59% - Landeskog
08.68% - Toews

It might not be 50% today, but only MacK and whoever was chosen from the above are being paid as UFAs. Rants and Makar will be asking for signficant cap percentage increases. Enough for a combined 5% between them? I'd say it's inevitable.

[edit... I'm relying on public education and cap percentages from capwages.com. Please be gentle.]

The cap will be going up though, so with every year the % cap hit gets lower on each deal.

I also think the Leafs are underrated simply because they haven't won the cup. The team has been strong and had a chance to win every year.

 

[expatriatedtexan]

The cap will be going up though, so with every year the % cap hit gets lower on each deal.

I also think the Leafs are underrated simply because they haven't won the cup. The team has been strong and had a chance to win every year.

The Leafs have been fine mostly in my opinion. I do think they have been lacking in the defensive aspect of the game. Just not good enough two way or even acceptable enough defensive play from a lot of their dmen over the last many years. Of course, the Avs were in the same boat until the minute Makar actually joined the NHL roster and then he showed us how quickly change can come for a team.

 

[LOFIN]

The Leafs have been fine mostly in my opinion. I do think they have been lacking in the defensive aspect of the game. Just not good enough two way or even acceptable enough defensive play from a lot of their dmen over the last many years. Of course, the Avs were in the same boat until the minute Makar actually joined the NHL roster and then he showed us how quickly change can come for a team.

The problem with the Leafs committing big money to 4 forwards is that they simply haven't been difference makers when it counts. That's more on the players than the philosophy specifically. I do believe that they could win, if Matthews, Marner and Nylander would actually pull their weight and take over games when it matters.

Obviously their lacklustre D-corps has made it harder, but top players should be able to find a way.

 

[Hennessy]

This thread reeks of justifications to underpay Rantanen.

The Avs have 3 of the best players in the world on their roster. Most teams would kill for that luck.

Yes, it sucks to fit it all in under the cap, but convincing yourselves that Rantanen is merely "top 30" doesn't do a damn thing to address the reality.

 

[John Mandalorian]

It won’t happen but if Rantanen were to sign for around 10.9, just imagine the crisis it would cause in Toronto regarding Marner. Would be so great.

 

[expatriatedtexan]

This thread reeks of justifications to underpay Rantanen.

The Avs have 3 of the best players in the world on their roster. Most teams would kill for that luck.

Yes, it sucks to fit it all in under the cap, but convincing yourselves that Rantanen is merely "top 30" doesn't do a damn thing to address the reality.

I honestly don't put Rants at that level anymore. He's just not on the same level as MacKinnon and Makar as a player. He's got points, but he does not affect the game in any other way like those two do. I just can't in good concious say he's on the same level.

 

[Balthazar]

The Avs have 3 of the best players in the world on their roster.

I honestly don't put Rants at that level anymore.

Wasn't Rants.

Mack, Makar, Georgiev.

 

[LOFIN]

I honestly don't put Rants at that level anymore. He's just not on the same level as MacKinnon and Makar as a player. He's got points, but he does not affect the game in any other way like those two do. I just can't in good concious say he's on the same level.

Well that's pretty unfair to Rantanen, because we are talking about the #2C in the world and #1D in the world. Yeah, pretty hard to be on the same level.

He is a top-5 winger in the world though (or if you really want to push it, #6). I would argue, that if you are in the top-5 of your position, you can be said to be "one of the best players in the world".

Kucherov
Panarin
Pastrnak

Rantanen
Tkachuk
Kaprizov

 

[expatriatedtexan]

Well that's pretty unfair to Rantanen, because we are talking about the #2C in the world and #1D in the world. Yeah, pretty hard to be on the same level.

He is a top-5 winger in the world though (or if you really want to push it, #6). I would argue, that if you are in the top-5 of your position, you can be said to be "one of the best players in the world".

Kucherov
Panarin
Pastrnak

Rantanen
Tkachuk
Kaprizov

It's all symantics I suppose. I perfectly see what you are saying and I'm cool with your way of looking at it. But for me, when you watch an Avs game there is a very, very clear difference that two of those guys are operating on a completely different level. That's why I can't keep Rants there. He was there though in my eyes for close to four years.

 

[GoNordiquesGo]

That's what happens when you're spoiled...

 

[The Abusement Park]

I honestly don't put Rants at that level anymore. He's just not on the same level as MacKinnon and Makar as a player. He's got points, but he does not affect the game in any other way like those two do. I just can't in good concious say he's on the same level.

I mean does Mackinnon really affect the game outside of the offensive side of the game? Mackinnon doesn’t win face offs and the difference between him and Rants defensively isn’t that huge.

This isn’t to slag Mack or Mikko because they’re by far net positive players, but this expectation of Nate and Mikko to be stalwart defensive players is just totally unrealistic.