RANK! Better Career: Bourque vs Lidstrom vs Coffey vs Stevens

Dark Shadows

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I think I stated several valid reasons Bourque declined defensively as he got older, whereas Lidstrom over the same age bracket somehow got better.

Funny how you forgot to mention that Bourque in 1994 (a Norris season) went into that postseason with Don Sweeney, a 58-point Glen Wesley AND a 58-point Al Iafrate, who was a 2nd Team AS the year prior.

In 1994, the Bruins entered the postseason with THREE defensemen with 58 points or higher (Bourque, Wesley and Iafrate).
Mentioning Iafrate here only hurts your case. Not only was he bad defensively before he hurt his knee...... Twice in the season with Washington, he blew out his knee and they traded him quickly. In the final Bruins regular season game, he blew out his knee against Hartford. We all know what happened then. He had 4 points in 13 playoff games he probably should not have been playing, had offseason surgery to repair his knee and did not play Hockey again until the 96-97 season, shortly before he realized he was done.

Wesley was a different case. He was a good player on their blueline, although more offensively than defensively. Their forward depth was still in the toilet. Not only because Neely was unable to play, but because their secondary scoring was just a tier below other teams of the time. With all-due respect to a 22 year old Smolinsky and 21 year old Murray, and an inept Donato, the other teams of the time who were winning had better two way players and better experienced depth and goaltending AND defense. Oates was the only real scoring forward on that team.

They took a 2-0 lead going back to Boston in the 2nd round.

Bourque in Games 3-6?....-7.

So clearly, "the lack of support" excuse can only go so far. Bourque was on several Bruins teams who did fine without him even playing (they won two playoff games in Boston against Roy and the Habs without Bourque).
??
Game 1: Bourque 2 points and -2, Boston wins 3-2
Game 2: Bourque 1 point and -1, Montreal wins 3-2
Game 3: Bourque 0 points and +1, Boston wins 6-3
Game 4: Bourque 0 points and +1, Montreal wins 5-2
Game 5: Bourque 0 points and +1, Montreal wins 2-1
Game 6: Bourque 2 points and +/-0, Boston wins 3-2
Game 7: Bourque 1 point and +2, Boston win 5-3

Bourque played every game against Montreal and was a key player in the win even though he could barely skate because of the knee injury.

Jersey of course, was smashing his injured knee he could barely skate on anyways every chance they got. Jersey with Hall of fame one of the top goaltenders ever to play Martin Brodeur was not exactly a bad team. Far Better coaching with less star power. They had the Rangers on the ropes too, but the Rangers had waaaaaaaay better depth and star power.



In fact, I think the Bruins went a combined 12-5 in the games Bourque missed between 1993 and 1994.
Just looking at 1993-94 when he missed the rest of the regular season after seriously injuring his knee, including the game he injured it in.
6 wins, 6 losses, 1 tie.

So, we have statistical proof that between 1991-1994, the Bruins:

1) won playoff games without Bourque.
And? The reds wings went to the conference Finals with Yzerman out and Probert leading the team in scoring. Sometimes it happens.
The incarnation of the Habs they beat with Bourque sitting a few games after helping them to a comfortable 2-0 lead in the series were not a very good team.
2) in the 1992 Wales final, the Bruins best game (Game 1) was a game Bourque didn't even play in. The Bruins dominated the game and held a 3-2 midway through the third until Jagr won it in OT. Bourque came back for games 2-4 and the Bruins were outscored 15-4 in those games and Bourque was a -6. And watch the film too.
We already pointed out that he could not even grip his stick because of the cast that series, but you chose to ignore it.

3) the Bruins surrounded Bourque with talent. Selke types (Poulin), Vezina top-5 (Moog), 50+ scoring dmen (Wesley, Iafrate), 50-goal scorer (Neely), Hart top-4 (Oates)

These are facts. Nothing subjective.
Again, complete distortion of the truth.

Having a couple of Selke caliber defensive forwards, and two star forwards is not the same as having 3 solid two way lines with Selke caliber centers down the middle and star and superstar winger, not to mention far better defensive partners. You can mention an Iafrate who could barely skate and had to retire as if he is Rafalski, Coffey or Larry Murphy, but it is a complete distortion. You can mention a middling top 4 defenseman like Wesley and it is still a distortion.

And Boston in Bourque's Norris seasons either had forward depth with little star power, Or a solid Oates line with lacking depth on every other line. And outside of the Moog years, very questionable goaltending. Not to mention, the coaching, which is night and day different.
 

Big Phil

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Again, Bourque was underperforming consistently in two significant periods.

1984-1987 and 1991 CF to 1999.

It's too long of a period to ignore. We're talking like a dozen or so playoff series.

Lidstrom too has instances of inconsistency. Just not as prolonged and certainly not as stark.

That's why people are holding onto the teammate excuse for dear life. If the Bruins were good enough to win 51 games, why couldn't they win a playoff game? If the Bruins were good enough to take a 2-0 lead in two different series, then why did they lose four straight? And why in those four straight was Bourque at his worst?

Doesn't add up. I think if Bourque played as well as he did in the regular season, he'd have more playoff success. Lidstrom didn't have as many lapses.

Go ahead and blame teammates. I already provided proof that the Bruins were fine record-wise without Bourque in two seasons where they were one of the top teams in the league.

Well, you're missing somethings here. First off, you start off at 1984 as if nothing mattered before. Bourque had 23 points in 17 in the 1983 playoffs. They lost to the Islanders who were in the middle of their dynasty. In 1980 Bourque had 11 points in 10 games, they lost to the Islanders. You've got the 1984-'87 years covered. He could have done better. What can you say? Even to the great ones it happens. 1988 he had a great run. 1990 he had a great run and 1991 he had a great run until the Penguins showed up. If you think the Pens would be an easy team to shut down then you forget the early 1990s. This was Mario Lemieux in his prime along with a HHOF cast. Same in 1992. Have you forgotten that Bourque helped get them to the conference final and past the Habs those two years as well?

Sure he could have done better in 1993. But 1994 wasn't all that bad. They lost to New Jersey in the 2nd round. I don't have to tell you what the Devils did after 1994, and considering the Rangers had a heck of a time getting through them a round later is it really hard to imagine Boston losing? Bourque had 10 points. The leader on the Bruins was Oates with 12. Bourque is the one who scored that famous five hole slap shot on Patrick Roy in Game 7 the first round. You act as if he was invisible. 1995 the Bruins scored 5 goals in 5 games. Bourque had 3 assists. He led the Bruins. Neely had two goals and he was the only other Bruin with two points. They lost to the eventual Cup winners. This is when Boston was on a clear decline by now. You didn't bother bringing up why Adam Oates had one point. What did you want Bourque to do?

1996 he had 7 points in 5 games. 1998 the Bruins probably would have won the series if not for that silly crease rule that robbed them of an overtime goal that would have put them up in the series. 1999 he was old but still led them to the 2nd round. 2000 and 2001 he did very well, finally won his Cup.

See, he wasn't perfect every year, but my thought was the load probably took a toll on him in his 30s (right around the time he had lesser postseasons) since he was so often the driving force offensively and defensively for those Bruins teams. I get the feeling Lidstrom would have had much of the same situation in the postseason if not worse had there not been Yzerman and Fedorov to score all of those clutch goals. I am not penalizing him for this because good for him he contributed greatly to a mini-dynasty, but you also have to look beyond the box with Bourque as well. Do you know who scored the two goals in the 1990 final in Game 1 to send it to overtime? Ray Bourque. You talk about Glen Wesley a lot right, well it was Wesley who missed a yawning open net with the goalie down and out point blank and he somehow put it over the net with no one there. If he scores the series is at 1-0 Bruins. Instead, they lost in 5 games. So I am just saying, maybe a little extra support at the right time would make Bourque's already great postseason record look a little better. Unless you think it was Bourque's fault for not having a hat trick.

Honestly, I am not kidding when I tell you the guy could have used a little more help here and there and it shows.
 

Dark Shadows

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Ah, love this reasoning. Everything went right for Buffalo so it excuses a four-game first round sweep of a 51-win team. So now you're saying Buffalo was the better team heading into the series by spewing regular season stats, even though the Bruins were favored in the series.

Funny. Did Lafontaine, Mogilny and Hawerchulk play defense too? Because Bourque had one point in four games. And Fuhr was terrible that series. Hasek didn't play until Game 4 and it was in relief of Fuhr.

Why don't you go and "debunk" that. While you're at it, Debunk Mays GWG. It's really a thing of beauty.
Still ignoring the knee? He could not even walk. He forced himself to play through an injury that would have sidelined the majority of players.

You conveniently used your own ridiculous metric of 40-point scorers as the difference between getting swept in the 1st round and winning the Cup.

Too bad you avoided mentioning that both the 1993 Bruins and the 2008 Wings had SIX forwards hit the 40-point mark, except Boston added Neely who led the Bruins in playoff goal scoring and played every game.
Incredible. Simply stunning. I can't believe I ave to do this.

Ill spell it out for you then. Having 8+ 40 point scorers in 2008 is roughly equal to having 8+ 60+ point scorers in 1993.

The seasons Zetterberg and Datsyuk had, top point scorers and top Selke finalists are measurable in early 90' standards by comparing them to Fedorov's 1994 Hart year and Gilmour's 1993 year.

You know this. But you act like having six 40 point scorers in 1993, one of the highest scoring year in History, is the same as having them in 2008.

Ridiculous and transparent.

Again, you debunked nothing. You simply are taking blind stabs to excuse a massive choke job by the Bruins. There is no excuse for a 51-win team getting swept in the first round. None. The fact that Bourque was garbage that entire series (video and stats back it up) is something you refuse to acknowledge.

The video evidence and eye test back my points up, not your false invented points.

He could not even walk that series. Case closed. Effectively, you are saying that an Olympic runner should still have won a medal with a badly sprained knee he could not even walk on and found a way with other runners intentionally taking shots at your injured leg at the same time. It is absurd


While I understand that Bourque will get the edge in terms of overall play (I have never said Bourque wasn't the better player), my intent is to bring to light things that one should consider.

I'm not trying to convince anybody to change their minds. You seem obsessed with winning debates (which is odd considering you're a Bourque fan) when in fact, all you do is add strawman upon strawman to every discussion until people get fed up debating.
No, the strawmen arguments are coming from you. Period.


Several posters have provided ample data showing that Lidstrom and Bourque are on a level platform in some areas, while Bourque and Lidstrom have advantages/disadvantages in others.

To me, Cups, Smythes and Norris' trump points and AS selections.

It's performing your best when you are expected to be the best. The playoffs.

Lidstrom did it more than bourque did. Saw it with my own eyes.
Team trophies and norris trophies won when competition was weak as sin = less than norris trophies won during highly competitive era and excellent play despite not being on a powerhouse team.

Bourque did more than Lidstrom did. Saw it with my own eyes.
 

BraveCanadian

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Jun 30, 2010
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hfboards is interesting sometimes.. Bourque sure gets a lot of leeway that some other players don't. He is a playoff stud that happened to play on poor teams or be injured.

Meanwhile late '90s Jagr could have done more (on even worse teams).

:laugh:

Bourque was awesome, the Gordie Howe of defensemen for his consistency in the regular season. Some standout playoffs for sure too. A bunch of mediocre/poor ones.

Anyways, interesting to me how the wagons circle on some players vs. others.. I think Lidstrom was a more consistent playoff performer over his career than Bourque.
 

Rhiessan71

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I think I stated several valid reasons Bourque declined defensively as he got older, whereas Lidstrom over the same age bracket somehow got better.

Funny how you forgot to mention that Bourque in 1994 (a Norris season) went into that postseason with Don Sweeney, a 58-point Glen Wesley AND a 58-point Al Iafrate, who was a 2nd Team AS the year prior.

In 1994, the Bruins entered the postseason with THREE defensemen with 58 points or higher (Bourque, Wesley and Iafrate).

They took a 2-0 lead going back to Boston in the 2nd round.

Bourque in Games 3-6?....-7.

So clearly, "the lack of support" excuse can only go so far. Bourque was on several Bruins teams who did fine without him even playing (they won two playoff games in Boston against Roy and the Habs without Bourque).

In fact, I think the Bruins went a combined 12-5 in the games Bourque missed between 1993 and 1994.

So, we have statistical proof that between 1991-1994, the Bruins:

1) won playoff games without Bourque.

2) in the 1992 Wales final, the Bruins best game (Game 1) was a game Bourque didn't even play in. The Bruins dominated the game and held a 3-2 midway through the third until Jagr won it in OT. Bourque came back for games 2-4 and the Bruins were outscored 15-4 in those games and Bourque was a -6. And watch the film too.

3) the Bruins surrounded Bourque with talent. Selke types (Poulin), Vezina top-5 (Moog), 50+ scoring dmen (Wesley, Iafrate), 50-goal scorer (Neely), Hart top-4 (Oates)

These are facts. Nothing subjective.

Here we go again. Propping up Bourque's supposed "great" partners, forwards and goalies while nary a mention or a comparison to Lidstrom's.
This will be the THIRD time I have specifically called you out on this.

THAT is what is being discussed here and no matter how much you prop up Bourque's teammates, IT WILL PALE CONSIDERABLY TO LIDSTROM'S.


Tell you what, you can cherry-pick (mod) any season of Bourque's in Boston to use. Name every player from that season that you believe was elite, very good or even good.
I will then match that ONE season with TEN of Lidstrom's and every one of those seasons I list will blow away whatever season you use of Bourque's.

Wanna play???
 
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Dark Shadows

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hfboards is interesting sometimes.. Bourque sure gets a lot of leeway that some other players don't. He is a playoff stud that happened to play on poor teams or be injured.

Meanwhile late '90s Jagr could have done more (on even worse teams).

:laugh:

Bourque was awesome, the Gordie Howe of defensemen for his consistency in the regular season. Some standout playoffs for sure too. A bunch of mediocre/poor ones.

Anyways, interesting to me how the wagons circle on some players vs. others.. I think Lidstrom was a more consistent playoff performer over his career than Bourque.

To an extent, I agree with that. However, such consistency was also greatly attributed to his very favorable circumstances regarding slew of hall of fame teammates and extreme team depth beyond the competition and the fact that he was never ever the target of opposition shutdown the way Ray Bourque was.

Lidstrom could make that first pass confident that the forwards he had could move the puck up ice without getting too involved in the play. They had a stacked forward corps, diverse attack, and he could drift up and passively support offense, rather than be forced to create offense like Bourque. They also had a very good team defensive system full of Selke winning forwards.

He deserves all the credit in the world for being the pillar of consistency he was, however, Bourque does not deserve to be disparaged for doing amazing under far less favorable circumstances, in an era with far more creative standout defensemen a competition.

The Norris counting itself is just not feasible. In the early 80's, the media voted differently. Some years, they gave the Norris to offensive dynamos who were less able defensively on weaker teams, some years they decided it was time to give it to Rock solid old school defensive defensemen who had no offense to speak of.

Strictly defensively, a lot of people though Scott Stevens was the best defensive defenseman in the league in 2000-01. What would the uproar from you have been had he placed above Lidstrom and Bourque in 2001? That is the sort of thing that was more accepted when Langway won his two Norris trophies.

When Coffey won his, it was not an uproar situation. The man posted more points than anyone since Orr. Lidstrom in his best Norris year likely does not win a trophy on those two years just because of how overpowering the numbers were. Fortunately in Lidstrom's prime, there was not a single Paul Coffey type out there, nor did voters award purely defensive Rocks like Stevens like they did with Langway.
 

Dark Shadows

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Here we go again. Propping up Bourque's supposed "great" partners, forwards and goalies while nary a mention or a comparison to Lidstrom's.
This will be the THIRD time I have specifically called you out on this.

THAT is what is being discussed here and no matter how much you prop up Bourque's teammates, IT WILL PALE CONSIDERABLY TO LIDSTROM'S.


Tell you what, you can cherry-pick (mod) any season of Bourque's in Boston to use. Name every player from that season that you believe was elite, very good or even good.
I will then match that ONE season with TEN of Lidstrom's and every one of those seasons I list will blow away whatever season you use of Bourque's.

Wanna play???
I am still baffled by him saying "The Bruins in 93 had six 40 point scorers, only two less than Detroit's eight 40 point scorers in 2008!"

And acting like a 40 point scorer in 2008 = same in 1993
 
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TheDevilMadeMe

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I agree that GWOW doesn't help his case by picking and choosing seasons or games that support his point while ignoring ones that don't.

However, what do you all make of this:

From 1984 (the first season +/- was officially recorded in the playoffs) to 1999 (Bourque's last full season in Boston):

Bourque's playoff plus/minus: -8
Bourque's regular season plus/minus: +353

I realize that the time frame is a little unfair to Bourque as it just cuts off his 1983 playoffs when he scored 23 points in 17 games. But still, it's a 16 year period.
 

Rhiessan71

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I agree that GWOW doesn't help his case by picking and choosing seasons or games that support his point while ignoring ones that don't.

However, what do you all make of this:

From 1984 (the first season +/- was officially recorded in the playoffs) to 1999 (Bourque's last full season in Boston):

Bourque's playoff plus/minus: -8
Bourque's regular season plus/minus: +353

I realize that the time frame is a little unfair to Bourque as it just cuts off his 1983 playoffs when he scored 23 points in 17 games. But still, it's a 16 year period.

I say OK but then I say what's the context?
How does that compare with his teammates? If Bourque was -4 in one PO while his teammates were in the -7 to -9 range, what does that say?
Then by comparison, if Lidstrom is +12 but his teammates are all also in the +10 to +12 range, what does that say?

To simply say Bourque was -2 while Lidstrom was +13 looks good on its face but doesn't tell the whole story by half.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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I say OK but then I say what's the context?
How does that compare with his teammates? If Bourque was -4 in one PO while his teammates were in the -7 to -9 range, what does that say?
Then by comparison, if Lidstrom is +12 but his teammates are all also in the +10 to +12 range, what does that say?

To simply say Bourque was -2 while Lidstrom was +13 looks good on its face but doesn't tell the whole story by half.

I agree that the context needs to be taken into account. I'm sure that it's relevant that Lidstrom's teams were higher seeds than Bourque's teams, on average, so they at least started the playoffs playing weaker teams (again on average). I'm also sure that it's relevant that Bourque maybe had to do too much, since Boston didn't have much depth on D. I also think it's relevant that Bourque may have been somewhat burnt out during the playoffs due to all the minutes he played in the regular season due to that lack of depth - especially compared to Lidstrom who generally played fewer minutes than most superstar defensemen because of the way Detroit distributed ice time. And yes, as HO pointed out, Bostons goalies appeared to be sieves on a few occasions, though goal was the one area where Lidstrom's teams were not always stacked.

All that said, 16 years is an awfully long sample size.
 

Steve Kournianos

@thedraftanalyst
Mentioning Iafrate here only hurts your case. Not only was he bad defensively before he hurt his knee...... Twice in the season with Washington, he blew out his knee and they traded him quickly. In the final Bruins regular season game, he blew out his knee against Hartford. We all know what happened then. He had 4 points in 13 playoff games he probably should not have been playing, had offseason surgery to repair his knee and did not play Hockey again until the 96-97 season, shortly before he realized he was done.


If you're implying Iafrate was a non-factor, you're wrong. Flat out wrong.

"blew out his knee against Hartford".....Hyperbole at its best. He didnt blow out his knee in the Hartford game. He blew it out years earlier. He re-injured it either late in the 1994 season or in the playoffs. He played through the pain.
He scored a goal in the 3rd period in the Hartford game. Also here's this from Game 1 against the Habs:

Those present went wild when they saw Bourque. But it was Al Iafrate who turned in the physically dominating performance of the night. Iafrate, acquired at the trade deadline from Washington for Joe Juneau, was selected No. 1 star.

``In crucial times, Al rises up,'' Sutter said. ``He and Eric Lindros are probably the two biggest and strongest men in the league. And when you make them a little bit ornery, they're a little bit bigger and a little bit stronger.''

Sutter evidently had some choice words to motivate Iafrate.

``He knows what to say to make me realize what I have to do,'' said Iafrate, who is 6 foot 3, 220 pounds. ``If I'm not skating and hitting, I won't be a factor. I just can't repeat exactly what he said.''

Iafrate played in some pivotal moments when Bourque, who hadn't played in a month and was on the ice for both Montreal goals, came off.

http://articles.courant.com/1994-04-17/sports/9404170418_1_bruins-boston-garden-al-iafrate

Iafrate also played well in the first two wins over the Devils. He scored a tying goal in the 3rd period of game two. In the entire postseason, he was second on the Bruins in shots (49).

Iafrate made one glaring mistake in the Devils series -- his failed clearing attempt in Game 6 that was picked off and ended up in the deciding goal. In the four straight losses to the Devils (where Terreri won three of them, not Brodeur), Iafrate was literally better than Bourque defensively. Forget the plus minus.

One (of several possible) examples: In the 2-0 loss, Bourque was caught up ice in the last minute of the 2nd and Bobby Carpenter wired a laser off a 2-on-1 pass from either Miller or Lemieux. Iafrate, who was not Bourque's regular partner was the lone guy back on the 2-on-1. That was a critical goal in a 1-0 game in Game 5. Bourque was on the ice also for Millen one-time goal from the slot off a behind-the-net pass from Carpenter. Bourque blew his coverage and let a guy half his size get positioning in the slot and slam dunk the opening goal early in the 2nd.

Two crushing goals in a pivotal game 5 of a 2-2 series. Bourque not only on the ice for both of them, but directly responsible for the goals.

The only way you can "debunk that" is to show video proof showing otherwise. (here's a hint: it wont)

In the last four games of the Devils series, an alleged one-legged Iafrate was 1-0-1 (PPG) and a -3 while Bourque was 1-1-2 (PPG) and a -7. They were not a pairing.


Wesley was a different case. He was a good player on their blueline, although more offensively than defensively. Their forward depth was still in the toilet. Not only because Neely was unable to play, but because their secondary scoring was just a tier below other teams of the time. With all-due respect to a 22 year old Smolinsky and 21 year old Murray, and an inept Donato, the other teams of the time who were winning had better two way players and better experienced depth and goaltending AND defense. Oates was the only real scoring forward on that team.

Key word -- other teams were better defensively. That's because Bourque was not at his best. had Bourque been at his best, the Bruins would have gone further. The Devils scored 16 goals in the last four games of the Devils series -- Bourque was on the ice for most of them.


??
Game 1: Bourque 2 points and -2, Boston wins 3-2
Game 2: Bourque 1 point and -1, Montreal wins 3-2
Game 3: Bourque 0 points and +1, Boston wins 6-3
Game 4: Bourque 0 points and +1, Montreal wins 5-2
Game 5: Bourque 0 points and +1, Montreal wins 2-1
Game 6: Bourque 2 points and +/-0, Boston wins 3-2
Game 7: Bourque 1 point and +2, Boston win 5-3

Bourque played every game against Montreal and was a key player in the win even though he could barely skate because of the knee injury.

That's 1994. I was talking about the 1992 ADF. The Bruins won the final two games in Boston without Bourque. I thought the mention of how well the Bruins played in the Jagr game would make you realize that. Guess not.

Jersey of course, was smashing his injured knee he could barely skate on anyways every chance they got. Jersey with Hall of fame one of the top goaltenders ever to play Martin Brodeur was not exactly a bad team. Far Better coaching with less star power. They had the Rangers on the ropes too, but the Rangers had waaaaaaaay better depth and star power.

"Debunked". LOL

Terreri started in three of the four wins -- all in Boston

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/t/terrech01/gamelog/1994/

Now I have to question whether you even watched the series at any point. It was a huge controversy at the time because Lemaire went back to Brodeur in Game 5 where Marty pitched a 2-0 shutout, and then went right back to Terreri in Game 6. Terreri played all all three games in Boston.

You're not going to swin you're way out of that one. The Bruins took a 2-0 lead against Brodeur and forced the switch to Terreri. Home ice, back-up goalie.

As for Bourque's knee getting "smashed", how did Iafrate and his "blown out" knee manage to have a better defensive series? You just said Jersey was very deep with Hall of Famers, so it would be impossible for Bourque to be the only guy on the ice when these "knee-smashing Hall of Famers" went out to cripple and maim.:laugh:


Just looking at 1993-94 when he missed the rest of the regular season after seriously injuring his knee, including the game he injured it in.
6 wins, 6 losses, 1 tie.

Why would you not include the game he was hurt in? He played the whole game and had 3 assists and was a -3. He wasnt hurt on the opening shift. The NHL recorded it as a game played, as will I:

The Bruins went 6-4-2 without Bourque in 1994. They went 5-1 without him in 1993. That's 11-5-2 in the 18 games he most certainly did not play in, in seasons where the Bruins finished with 51/109 (2nd overall) and 42/97 (T-6th overall).

While it's easy to say that the teams who beat the Bruins in the postseason were "deeper" or the cliche "they were the better team", the truth is that in both 1993 and 1994 (and several other postseasons as well), the Bruins were favored and on paper had "the better team". Bourque underperformed in both postseasons, specifically defensively, as proven, stated, documented above.


And? The reds wings went to the conference Finals with Yzerman out and Probert leading the team in scoring. Sometimes it happens.
The incarnation of the Habs they beat with Bourque sitting a few games after helping them to a comfortable 2-0 lead in the series were not a very good team.

The 1992 Habs underachieved. Doesnt mean they werent good. They won their division and had the best goalie and the best overall defense. They had the 5th best record in the NHL.

You can argue all day against the shortcomings of the 1992 Canadiens. It wont work. The Bruins beating the Habs without Bourque and completing only the second ever sweep in the Habs history was a huge accomplishment and it proves that the Bruins were deep enough to sustain the loss of their best player.



We already pointed out that he could not even grip his stick because of the cast that series, but you chose to ignore it.

Again, complete distortion of the truth.

Having a couple of Selke caliber defensive forwards, and two star forwards is not the same as having 3 solid two way lines with Selke caliber centers down the middle and star and superstar winger, not to mention far better defensive partners. You can mention an Iafrate who could barely skate and had to retire as if he is Rafalski, Coffey or Larry Murphy, but it is a complete distortion. You can mention a middling top 4 defenseman like Wesley and it is still a distortion.

And Boston in Bourque's Norris seasons either had forward depth with little star power, Or a solid Oates line with lacking depth on every other line. And outside of the Moog years, very questionable goaltending. Not to mention, the coaching, which is night and day different
.


How is it a distortion of truth. It's fact. You just dont like the truth. You're the one that brought in the voting results of teammates, and then when presented with similar data against Bourque, you claim the truth was "distorted".

1) You included Bourque's 3-assist game as a game he didnt play in because they lost the game, and you omitted the Calgary tie game.

2) You used both Hasek and Brodeur to beef up your weak attempts to justify two terrible series losses in which Bourque was terrible, even though the Sabres built a 3-0 series lead with a terrible Fuhr, and the Devils went down 0-2 with Brodeur, forcing Lemaire to pull him.

3) You claimed Iafrate was hobbled in the postseason and it impacted his play, much like Bourque in an attempt to show Bourque had no support, but it was proven with examples that Iafrate outperformed Bourque defensively and was the better, more reliable d-man in the Devils series.
 

Dark Shadows

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I agree that the context needs to be taken into account. I'm sure that it's relevant that Lidstrom's teams were higher seeds than Bourque's teams, on average, so they at least started the playoffs playing weaker teams (again on average). I'm also sure that it's relevant that Bourque maybe had to do too much, since Boston didn't have much depth on D. I also think it's relevant that Bourque may have been somewhat burnt out during the playoffs due to all the minutes he played in the regular season due to that lack of depth - especially compared to Lidstrom who generally played fewer minutes than most superstar defensemen because of the way Detroit distributed ice time.

All that said, 16 years is an awfully long sample size.
I don't remember the bolded to be honest. A point in Lidstrom's favor to me was, after Konstantinov's accident, always a big minute defenseman. He was given more icetime and responsibility and ran with it very well.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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I don't remember the bolded to be honest. A point in Lidstrom's favor to me was, after Konstantinov's accident, always a big minute defenseman. He was given more icetime and responsibility and ran with it very well.

He did, but he never had the 30+ minute seasons you would see from Chris Pronger.
 

Steve Kournianos

@thedraftanalyst
I agree that GWOW doesn't help his case by picking and choosing seasons or games that support his point while ignoring ones that don't.

However, what do you all make of this:

From 1984 (the first season +/- was officially recorded in the playoffs) to 1999 (Bourque's last full season in Boston):

Bourque's playoff plus/minus: -8
Bourque's regular season plus/minus: +353

I realize that the time frame is a little unfair to Bourque as it just cuts off his 1983 playoffs when he scored 23 points in 17 games. But still, it's a 16 year period.


That's been my argument the whole time. I only mention individual seasons because of the posters on here who refute any claim that Bourque was a substandard performer in ANY of his postseasons.
 

ArGarBarGar

What do we want!? Unfair!
Sep 8, 2008
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He did, but he never had the 30+ minute seasons you would see from Chris Pronger.

How many seasons before 1998 are you referencing? Pronger's only had two 30+ minute seasons from 1998 onward. It wasn't exactly a regular occurence.

Lidstrom consistently ranked in the top 5 of ice time for defensemen during his prime years.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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How many seasons before 1998 are you referencing? Pronger's only had two 30+ minute seasons from 1998 onward. It wasn't exactly a regular occurence.

Lidstrom consistently ranked in the top 5 of ice time for defensemen during his prime years.

True, but Lidstrom didn't have any right?

I'm also pretty sure that Bourque and Leetch at least saw more ice time relative to their peers than Lidstrom.
 

ArGarBarGar

What do we want!? Unfair!
Sep 8, 2008
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True, but Lidstrom didn't have any right?

I'm also pretty sure that Bourque and Leetch at least saw more ice time relative to their peers than Lidstrom.

Lidstrom's closest seasons had him at 29 and change, so no. However 30 minute seasons have pretty much been nonexistent since 2000, and I was just responding to the idea (whether that was your intent or not) that Pronger had a wealth of 30+ minute seasons and Lidstrom wasn't counted on to take a heavy load in terms of ice time.

As far as the second point, I have no idea. :laugh: Though it does seem like Lidstrom was almost always one of the top ice-time leaders during his prime years, so I can't image the disparity (if there is one) is very large.
 

Dark Shadows

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If you're implying Iafrate was a non-factor, you're wrong. Flat out wrong.

"blew out his knee against Hartford".....Hyperbole at its best. He didnt blow out his knee in the Hartford game. He blew it out years earlier. He re-injured it either late in the 1994 season or in the playoffs. He played through the pain.
He scored a goal in the 3rd period in the Hartford game. Also here's this from Game 1 against the Habs:



http://articles.courant.com/1994-04-17/sports/9404170418_1_bruins-boston-garden-al-iafrate
Funny, that same article gave a link to the the Bruins Whalers game right before seasons end on Apr 26th
http://articles.courant.com/1995-04-26/sports/9504260274_1_bruins-minor-surgery-boston-garden

* Injuries: Whalers -- Jimmy Carson (shoulder separation), Jim Sandlak (fractured heel) out. Sanderson (flu) probable. Bruins -- Al Iafrate (knee), Steve Leach (broken foot), Daniel Marois (back surgery) out; Bryan Smolinski (charley horse), Dave Reid (hip pointer), Jozef Stumpel (knee) could return. Bourque (back spasms) questionable.
Well golly gee. I guess it was not in the whalers game. it must have been the game before. But the point is the same. He busted up his knee a documented 3 times that season, the third of which was right before the playoffs. So you pull out a game 1 article which highlights the positives of the bruins and Omit most of it. That article you posted was actually praising Ray Bourque's return as a reason for their PP finally clicking and how he helped score 2 of their 3 points that game.
The only rink they could line up on short notice was in nearby St. Laurent - the Raymond Bourque Arena.

But everyone knows the real Raymond Bourque arena is Boston Garden. And the 13,537 at the Garden Saturday erupted when their beloved No. 77 was introduced before the Bruins' 3-2 victory over the Canadiens.

Bourque missed the final 11 games of the regular season with a knee injury. Not surprisingly, the defenseman's return marked the resurgence of a dormant Bruins power play that had gone 2-for-39 to end the season.

Mariusz Czerkawski, Adam Oates and Ted Donato scored on the power play as the Bruins went 3-for- 6 to win the opener in the best-of- seven Eastern Conference quarterfinal series. Game 2 is Monday.

Bourque assisted on two of those goals and was quarterbacking the power play on all three.

``Power plays go in streaks,'' Bruins coach Brian Sutter said. ``Certainly, Raymond's return was a tremendous help.''

This is their 10th playoff meeting in the past 11 years. The Canadiens are 21-6 overall in the playoffs against Boston, and the Bruins have never beaten Montreal in an opening-round series. But the Bruins have won four of the past five series.

Sutter pulled a surprise by starting Jon Casey in goal. Vincent Riendeau had played the past three games and had a 2.17 goals-against average in his past six appearances. Casey had been pulled in three of his past four starts.

They also mention how surprised they were to go with their questionable goaltender, while praising Iafrate's physical hitting game.


Iafrate also played well in the first two wins over the Devils. He scored a tying goal in the 3rd period of game two. In the entire postseason, he was second on the Bruins in shots (49).

Iafrate made one glaring mistake in the Devils series -- his failed clearing attempt in Game 6 that was picked off and ended up in the deciding goal. In the four straight losses to the Devils (where Terreri won three of them, not Brodeur), Iafrate was literally better than Bourque defensively. Forget the plus minus.

One (of several possible) examples: In the 2-0 loss, Bourque was caught up ice in the last minute of the 2nd and Bobby Carpenter wired a laser off a 2-on-1 pass from either Miller or Lemieux. Iafrate, who was not Bourque's regular partner was the lone guy back on the 2-on-1. That was a critical goal in a 1-0 game in Game 5. Bourque was on the ice also for Millen one-time goal from the slot off a behind-the-net pass from Carpenter. Bourque blew his coverage and let a guy half his size get positioning in the slot and slam dunk the opening goal early in the 2nd.

Two crushing goals in a pivotal game 5 of a 2-2 series. Bourque not only on the ice for both of them, but directly responsible for the goals.

The only way you can "debunk that" is to show video proof showing otherwise. (here's a hint: it wont)

In the last four games of the Devils series, an alleged one-legged Iafrate was 1-0-1 (PPG) and a -3 while Bourque was 1-1-2 (PPG) and a -7. They were not a pairing.




Key word -- other teams were better defensively. That's because Bourque was not at his best. had Bourque been at his best, the Bruins would have gone further. The Devils scored 16 goals in the last four games of the Devils series -- Bourque was on the ice for most of them.

Again, a lot of talk, selective copy and pasting from articles, while intentionally omitting the parts where they absolutely praise Bourque, and in some cases, you just making things up. As usual.

That's 1994. I was talking about the 1992 ADF. The Bruins won the final two games in Boston without Bourque. I thought the mention of how well the Bruins played in the Jagr game would make you realize that. Guess not.

"Debunked". LOL
If you were talking about 1992, why did you specifically say "Had Iafrate, Wesley, etc" immediately before talking about them winning 2 games without Ray?

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=89304829&postcount=223

There is your quote. Obviously the way you structured it looked like you were talking about the same year.



Terreri started in three of the four wins -- all in Boston

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/t/terrech01/gamelog/1994/

Now I have to question whether you even watched the series at any point. It was a huge controversy at the time because Lemaire went back to Brodeur in Game 5 where Marty pitched a 2-0 shutout, and then went right back to Terreri in Game 6. Terreri played all all three games in Boston.

You're not going to swin you're way out of that one. The Bruins took a 2-0 lead against Brodeur and forced the switch to Terreri. Home ice, back-up goalie.
Or I got the year mixed up. As I recall, they played the devils 2 years in a row.

Either way, what I do know. Iafrate did not outplay Bourque defensively. And both guys were in very bad shape.


As for Bourque's knee getting "smashed", how did Iafrate and his "blown out" knee manage to have a better defensive series? You just said Jersey was very deep with Hall of Famers, so it would be impossible for Bourque to be the only guy on the ice when these "knee-smashing Hall of Famers" went out to cripple and maim.:laugh:
Rofl. Iafrate did not have a better defensive series. That article you linked is a coach praising his physical play. in no way shape or form does he say "Better defensively".

Where did I say Jersey was deep with Hall of famers? you are getting your wires crossed son. I said Brodeur was a hall of Fame, one of the best goaltenders of all time and that the team had better coaching and LESS star power.

:laugh:
Read before you type.



Why would you not include the game he was hurt in? He played the whole game and had 3 assists and was a -3. He wasnt hurt on the opening shift. The NHL recorded it as a game played, as will I:
Be my guest.

The Bruins went 6-4-2 without Bourque in 1994. They went 5-1 without him in 1993. That's 11-5-2 in the 18 games he most certainly did not play in, in seasons where the Bruins finished with 51/109 (2nd overall) and 42/97 (T-6th overall).

While it's easy to say that the teams who beat the Bruins in the postseason were "deeper" or the cliche "they were the better team", the truth is that in both 1993 and 1994 (and several other postseasons as well), the Bruins were favored and on paper had "the better team". Bourque underperformed in both postseasons, specifically defensively, as proven, stated, documented above.
Nope. For all the reasons I already stated multiple times. Revisionist history Mr Fischler.


The 1992 Habs underachieved. Doesnt mean they werent good. They won their division and had the best goalie and the best overall defense. They had the 5th best record in the NHL.

You can argue all day against the shortcomings of the 1992 Canadiens. It wont work. The Bruins beating the Habs without Bourque and completing only the second ever sweep in the Habs history was a huge accomplishment and it proves that the Bruins were deep enough to sustain the loss of their best player.
I don't think my old favorite team underachieved at all in 1992. I think they overachieved thanks to Roy.

This is getting tiresome. Just like the other threads. I am just getting too old to keep arguing the same points over and over.
 

Steve Kournianos

@thedraftanalyst
I am still baffled by him saying "The Bruins in 93 had six 40 point scorers, only two less than Detroit's eight 40 point scorers in 2008!"

And acting like a 40 point scorer in 2008 = same in 1993

Never said that, but OK. Please post the quote for accuracy.


The 40-point scorers was your own made-up barometer to measure depth, but as usual, it had nothing to do with why the Bruins were swept in the first round. The Bruins lost for several reasons:

1) The Sabres neutralized the Boston forecheck
2) the Sabres took early leads and clogged the neutral zone
3) Boston's defense corps was exposed as slow by the Sabres outside speed
4) Fuhr made stops when he had to


Offense wasnt the issue in the Sabres series. Defense and goaltending were. The Bruins gave up 3.19 goals in the regular season but 4.75 (with OT) in the postseason.

That's a jump of over a goal and a half. So even if the Bruins pleased you with three lines of 60-point scorers, that wouldnt have changed the issues plaguing Bourque and the defense corps.

The 2008 Red Wings were +73 in GF/GA.
The 1993 Bruins were +64 in GF/GA.

Now, I am not questioning whether the 2008 Red Wins were a good team or not. I'm not questioning their depth, their defense or their intangibles. They won the Cup and deservedly so.

What I am questioning is the manner in which the 1993 Bruins failed despite winning 51 games.

You dont win 51 games because of one man. You just dont. As "superhuman" people make Bourque out to be, he wasn't the reason. Was he a big reason? Of course he was.

But you dont win 51 games, have a top-3 defense and a top-8 offense because of one guy. The 1993 Bruins were heavy favorites to return to the CF and many in Boston felt it was the best team Bourque had been surrounded with since early in his career, and the 1993 Bruins had the most wins and points in 15 years. They closed out the season on a 16-2-0 run.

The Sabres were a mess heading into the 1993 postseason. They lost seven straight games to end the season and hadnt won a 1st round series since 1983. They were 0-5 all-time against Boston and lost to them in seven games the year before.

The Bruins were a defense-oriented team who scored goals by way of the forecheck. Any real Bruins fan who watched that season -- specifically the second half -- will tell you that.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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Come on guys, I realize you are never going to agree on this one, but stick to discussing the players, not each other.
 
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TheDevilMadeMe

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Yes, he won it once, by a very small margin (and also finished 2nd narrowly, so it evens itself out).
Lidstrom won seven Norris while all the best players were in the NHL.

If you sort the "best defencemen project" outcome based on birth year, you'll see some interesting things.
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1029907
Immediately over Bourque, you find Kasatonov (one year older) and Fetisov (two years older), both who were not in the NHL during their prime. Fetisov is ranked 8th, ahead of Chelios, MacInnis, Coffey, Leetch, Langway, Larry Murphy and all other guys Bourque competed with. You surely can admit that Fetisov and (most the time) Kasatonov would have provided even tougher competition for Bourque? Thus he didn't face all the best players and likely benefitted from it when it came to Norris voting.

I don't think Kasatonov was ever really good enough to truly compete for the Norris. He peaked at 5th in Soviet Player of the Year voting in 1983 (Fetisov was 4th). I do think he would have been a postseason All-Star several times though. Fetisov, on the other hand, probably does win his share of Norris Trophies in the early 80s, but does he win any after his car accident? Specifically, does he win any in the 1985-1997 time frame dominated by Bourque, Coffey, Chelios, and Leetch? I'm not so sure about that.

Lidstrom faced Pronger and Leetch (who is just two years older than Lidstrom and thus overlap Lidstrom's career rather than Bourque's). Those are according to the referred ranking comparable to MacInnis and Stevens. He also faced Niedermayer (comparable to Langway) and Chara (comparable with Murphy).
If we take out those players, Bourque "only" had Coffey and Chelios, both within two years of him. So based on the outcome of the defenceman project, those two are the main difference (I consider Wilson a step down).
Looking at it this way, it seems to me too as if Bourque might have faced better competition.

Leetch's defensive game fell off a cliff after 1997 for a variety of reasons and he was never a postseason All-Star again (though he was close in 2001), so no, he really wasn't providing serious competition for the Norris after that. You can't just list the names of players who happened to still be playing at the time - you have to look at how good they were. Bourque supporters are actually usually the ones "guilty" of this, particularly in the early 1980s when Bourque was first coming into the league. Lots of big names playing in the NHL then, but none of them were really in their primes except perhaps Potvin, who was often injured in the regular season then. In reality, Doug Wilson, Randy Carlyle, and Rod Langway are the ones who won Norrises for 4 seasons in a row. Bourque also faced Scott Stevens, whose 1993-94 season was just as good as Pronger's Hart winning season (in my own personal opinion at least), but 1993-94 was also one of Bourque's best seasons.

But looking at the time when the best players all were in the NHL, Lidstrom wins easily over Bourque, doesn't he?
Lidstrom had 10(!) 1st AST nominations, compared to Bourque's 4.
Lidstrom overall had 10+2 = 12 AST nominations, compared to Bourque's 6.

You seem to want to punish Bourque for his birthdate. The fact is that he was a 1st or 2nd Team All Star every single year from his age 19 season to his age 35 season. And I think he proved that he could do just fine again this newer crop of Europeans when, as a 40 year old, he was 2nd to only prime Lidstrom in Norris voting during his bounce-back year in 2000-01.

Of course we should also consider how good Bourque was prior to 1993 or so.
In his first 7 seasons, he won no Norris. Internationally, I rate him below Fetisov and Kasatonov (who was much better defensively). Bourque might have had anything from 0-4 1st team AST nominations during that time, if considering all players in the World. He might also have lost one or two 2nd team AST.

Kasatonov might have been better defensively than a young Bourque (maybe), but considering prime Bourque was rated as one of the best, if not the best, defensive defensemen in the league by NHL coaches, I think it would be a compliment to Kasatonov to consider him ever reaching Bourque's level defensively.

After that, Bourque had 4 Norris wins in 5 seasons, 4 1st AST, and one 2nd AST. By this time, his older Soviet stars Fetisov and Kasatonov started to decline, so they might only have been competitive with Bourque for a season or two. I give Bourque credit here, during this 4-5 year period he was likely the best defenceman in the World.

4-5 year period? Bourque won 5 of 7 Norrises between 1987 and 1994.

To summarize, basically all of Bourque's Norris wins would likely remain, if taking on a "world-wide" approach. He might have a few less 1st AST, and couple of seasons where he was not even in the 2nd AST. That would make his career stats in this regard look slightly less impressive.

I agree with this.

So while he was unfavoured regarding competion from one view of looking at it ("number of all-time-greats playing simultanously"), he was actually also a bit favoured pre-1990 by not having to compete with the best Europeans.

In my mind, there is no doubt that prime Bourque faced the toughest competition among defensemen in NHL history, so having to compete with Fetisov would have only made it that much tougher (assuming Fetisov was still in his prime after 1987, which he probably wasn't).

Yes, and then Lidstrom came and took 6 Norris wins in 7 seasons, separating himself from the competition in a way the four you mentioned was unable to. (Those four might have been five if Fetisov had been considered.)

There are different ways of looking at things. I agree it may seem as if Bourque faced harder competition, that's my current impression too (even though It's just an impression).

I think one needs to look at the number of votes. Sometimes the difference is big, sometimes (like when Bourque won in 1993-94) it's not.

This thread has so far not convinced me any further at all that Bourque being the better player career wise. On the contrary, I find the arguments from the "Bourque supporters" to be surprisingly weak. We all seem to agree that Bourque's many AST nominations are very impressive. But to me it's not dead sure that Bourque faced a tougher competition, or that he was disfavoured by playing on a "worse" team.

I think Lidstrom is being underrated is these discussions. Like I've written, it was easier to put of great stats (both scoring and +/-) in the 80s. It was easier to dominate than it has been during the last 10-20 years.

I don't think anyone disagrees that it was easier to put up better stats in the 1980s, but most of the stats presented here (at least by Hockey Outsider) are adjusted to era.
 
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Dark Shadows

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Never said that, but OK. Please post the quote for accuracy.


The 40-point scorers was your own made-up barometer to measure depth, but as usual, it had nothing to do with why the Bruins were swept in the first round.
No, the amount of 40 point scorers the Wings had was mentioned to illustrate their depth that they were still stacked in 2008. Twice as many as the Sharks, who were considered the other favorite in the west.

YOU were the one who said the Bruins needed another 40 point scorer. The problem is, a 40 point scorer in 2008 is roughly a 55-60 point scorer in 1993. That's how stacked the 2008 Wings were.

The Bruins lost for several reasons:

1) The Sabres neutralized the Boston forecheck
2) the Sabres took early leads and clogged the neutral zone
3) Boston's defense corps was exposed as slow by the Sabres outside speed
4) Fuhr made stops when he had to
And Moog was playing very badly and was pulled in favor of Blue, the Forward backchecking was largely failing and out of position, and poor Donato often was on the ice getting undressed by Mogilny. Poulin really had nothing to answer for Hawerchuk or LaFontaine.

Offense wasnt the issue in the Sabres series. Defense and goaltending were. The Bruins gave up 3.19 goals in the regular season but 4.75 (with OT) in the postseason.
Goaltening sure. Team defense and forward depth sure.

That's a jump of over a goal and a half. So even if the Bruins pleased you with three lines of 60-point scorers, that wouldnt have changed the issues plaguing Bourque and the defense corps.

The 2008 Red Wings were +73 in GF/GA.
The 1993 Bruins were +64 in GF/GA.
The wings in 2008 were more comparable with The powerhouse teams in the 90's than the Bruins. Stacked well above the other teams.

Now, I am not questioning whether the 2008 Red Wins were a good team or not. I'm not questioning their depth, their defense or their intangibles. They won the Cup and deservedly so.

What I am questioning is the manner in which the 1993 Bruins failed despite winning 51 games.

You dont win 51 games because of one man. You just dont. As "superhuman" people make Bourque out to be, he wasn't the reason. Was he a big reason? Of course he was.

But you dont win 51 games, have a top-3 defense and a top-8 offense because of one guy. The 1993 Bruins were heavy favorites to return to the CF and many in Boston felt it was the best team Bourque had been surrounded with since early in his career, and the 1993 Bruins had the most wins and points in 15 years. They closed out the season on a 16-2-0 run.

The Sabres were a mess heading into the 1993 postseason. They lost seven straight games to end the season and hadnt won a 1st round series since 1983. They were 0-5 all-time against Boston and lost to them in seven games the year before.

The Bruins were a defense-oriented team who scored goals by way of the forecheck. Any real Bruins fan who watched that season -- specifically the second half -- will tell you that.
They were a one line team with questionable depth at forward, injuries to one of their top forwards, and Moog had a horrible playoff.
 

Steve Kournianos

@thedraftanalyst
Funny, that same article gave a link to the the Bruins Whalers game right before seasons end on Apr 26th
http://articles.courant.com/1995-04-26/sports/9504260274_1_bruins-minor-surgery-boston-garden

Well golly gee. I guess it was not in the whalers game. it must have been the game before. But the point is the same. He busted up his knee a documented 3 times that season, the third of which was right before the playoffs. So you pull out a game 1 article which highlights the positives of the bruins and Omit most of it. That article you posted was actually praising Ray Bourque's return as a reason for their PP finally clicking and how he helped score 2 of their 3 points that game.
Yup, you were wrong. (MOD)
And posting the article was to disprove your assessment that Iafrate was incapacitated or debilitated for the postseason. The fact that he outplayed the “superhuman” Bourque defensively, even for one game, was my point. Furthermore, iIt would be redundant to mention that Bourque keyed the Bruins PP. Duh.
They also mention how surprised they were to go with their questionable goaltender, while praising Iafrate's physical hitting game.
Yup. The one-legged Iafrate was physical. Amazing with a blown-out knee.
Again, a lot of talk, selective copy and pasting from articles, while intentionally omitting the parts where they absolutely praise Bourque, and in some cases, you just making things up. As usual.
What was made up? I’m not knocking Bourque’s offensive play. I’m knocking his defensive play, specifically in the Devils series.
If you were talking about 1992, why did you specifically say "Had Iafrate, Wesley, etc" immediately before talking about them winning 2 games without Ray?
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=89304829&postcount=223
There is your quote. Obviously the way you structured it looked like you were talking about the same year.
No. That's how you chose to interpret it. In a previous post I clearly stated 1994, as well as that one. Guess you missed this part:
So, we have statistical proof that between 1991-1994, the Bruins

(MOD)
Either way, what I do know. Iafrate did not outplay Bourque defensively. And both guys were in very bad shape.
Prove it. You provided nothing. The stats dont support you. Neither does the video. Claiming Bourque outplayed Iafrate defensively in the Devils series will take work on your part. The stats and game footage don’t support it. So, get to work I guess.
Rofl. Iafrate did not have a better defensive series. That article you linked is a coach praising his physical play. in no way shape or form does he say "Better defensively".
(MOD) The linked article was to smash your idea that Iafrate "blew out his knee" before the postseason and was not healthy enough to be considered a quality member of a supporting cast. Clearly, Iafrate was either healthy enough or strong-willed enough to play through pain and outperform Bourque in at least one game.
If he outperforms Bourque defensively in one game....and Bourque is superhuman......hmmmmmm
Where did I say Jersey was deep with Hall of famers? you are getting your wires crossed son. I said Brodeur was a hall of Fame, one of the best goaltenders of all time and that the team had better coaching and LESS star power.
:laugh:
Read before you type.
Brodeur had no place in the discussion, or at least in the context you were trying to use him. It's a moot point. You ignored my point, which was that you claimed both Iafrate and Bourque had serious knee injuries before the playoffs and were the reason(s) why they struggled defensively. You also claimed (with no proof) that the targeted Bourque's knee was getting "smashed", and it was the reason why he struggled that series, whereas I stated Iafrate with (according to you) a much worse "blown-out" knee was less of a liability.
Be my guest.
Nope. For all the reasons I already stated multiple times. Revisionist history Mr Fischler.
What was? The stats proving Boston was a .700 team without Bourque over two seasons, or the fact that the Bruins had the 2nd best record in the NHL in 1993?
Please provide proof stating the Sabres were favored, or the Devils were expected to win a series they were trailing 2-0 heading on the road.

I don't think my old favorite team underachieved at all in 1992. I think they overachieved thanks to Roy.
This is getting tiresome. Just like the other threads. I am just getting too old to keep arguing the same points over and over.
So now a team you stated which wasn't "very good" now overachieved because of their goaltender, who just happened to underachieve when they faced a team for two playoff games without their best player?
 
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TheDevilMadeMe

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GWOW said:
Claiming Bourque outplayed Iafrate defensively in the Devils series will take work on your part. The stats and game footage don’t support it. So, get to work I guess.

Any particular reason, you think the burden of proof should be on him to show that Bourque (a generally excellent defensive player) outperformed Iafrate (a generally poor defensive player) defensively? I mean, I understand that it's quite possible that it happened in a single series. I was fairly young in 1994, but I don't remember either of them playing that amazing versus the Devils.

The article you provided indicates that Iafrate was the #1 star of that particular playoff game, not that he outperformed Bourque defensively over the course of the series.
 

Dark Shadows

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Jun 19, 2007
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Any particular reason, you think the burden of proof should be on him to show that Bourque (a generally excellent defensive player) outperformed Iafrate (a generally poor defensive player) defensively? I mean, I understand that it's quite possible that it happened in a single series. I was fairly young in 1994, but I don't remember either of them playing that amazing versus the Devils.

The article you provided indicates that Iafrate was the #1 star of that particular playoff game, not that he outperformed Bourque defensively over the course of the series.
Pretty much.
The article itself does not say Iafrate was the star of the game. Just that he turned the physically dominating presence of the game. I.E he was hitting everything in sight.

It is a coach, teammate and writer giving praise to Boston's late season trade acquisition. But moreover, the article goes on about how Bourque was in on the scoring of 2 of 3 Boston goals and was crucial to the one he did not assist on as well(He just omitted that part when quoting the article), while talking about how putrid their PP was while Bourque was out injured.

If anything, the article made more of a case for Bourque than against
 

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